Curse

frojack · Aug 17, 2006, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Well your missing the fact that Wild Blow removes all adrenaline, which can be punishing for a warrior. Wild Strike offers no such 'gimp' mechanism.

majoho · Aug 17, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by stamenflicker

Wild Strike, the assassin version is much different from the Warrior's Wild Blow sister version.

Except for the Wild in the name I don't see much "sister version" about it!

Lets see:

Wild Blow: Lose all Adrenaline. If it hits, this attack will be a critical hit. If Wild Blow hits, any Stance being used by your target ends. This attack cannot be "Blocked" or "Evaded"

Wild Strike: Off-hand attack. Must follow a lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +8...18 damage and target foe loses 1 Stance.

So the ONE thing they have in common is that they both make the target lose one stance, why even compare them?

dawnrain · Aug 17, 2006, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shantel Span

Point of Clarification - Wild Strike is an offhand attack and requires a lead attack. You must connect with your Lead attack before you can even attempt a Wild Strike again. Against your average ranger that's .25*.25...a 6.25% chance of success.

The above clarification is misleading. You hit your target with a lead attack and you miss with your off-hand, your target is still "marked" with a lead attack. And your target is still subject to attacks requiring a lead attack. "Marks" last for 20 secs, so you can attempt another wild strike as soon as it recharges.

Missing an off-hand or dual does not remove any "marks" on your target.

Aera · Aug 17, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Wild Strike: Off-hand attack. Must follow a lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +8...18 damage and target foe loses 1 Stance.

Didn't know you could have 2 stances at the same time?

Anyways, you can use wildblow with daggers, so why don't ya just go A/W with wildblow

Vermilion · Aug 17, 2006, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

So the ONE thing they have in common is that they both make the target lose one stance, why even compare them?

There aren't many skills that remove stances. (I thought wild blow and strike were it)

And for the record, Strike does +damage and blow is a critical hit. not the same thing exactly.

stamenflicker · Aug 17, 2006, 01:30 PM // 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Except for the Wild in the name I don't see much "sister version" about it!

Lets see:

Wild Blow: Lose all Adrenaline. If it hits, this attack will be a critical hit. If Wild Blow hits, any Stance being used by your target ends. This attack cannot be "Blocked" or "Evaded"

Wild Strike: Off-hand attack. Must follow a lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +8...18 damage and target foe loses 1 Stance.

So the ONE thing they have in common is that they both make the target lose one stance, why even compare them?

They serve the same purpose, and the Paragon is going to get one too. That they all serve to remove stances, that makes them in the same family. Sorry you don't see it that way, but when you are building your skill bar, you look to what it is that these skills do for your overall build in very much the same way.

I stated in the OP that I am not against having the assassin receive a penalty similar to the Warrior's loss of adrenaline. As long as its not blind, I'd take about anything... KD, higher E cost, longer recharge, whatever...

Yichi · Aug 17, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHUIU

I seriously doubt a paragon or dervish will replace the best ganker in the game.

i wouldnt. the dervishes in their forms spamming enchants then coping them off for even more dmg while NOT taking any dmg = much better ganker than a sin. and the paragon is COMPLETELY overpowered if you add in ranger as primary using expertise.

stamenflicker · Aug 17, 2006, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

Any assassin going after a warrior or ranger is pretty much retarded. There's a reason assassins have skills that allow them to zip to the back line and create havoc with the monks, ele's and other casters.

Shield Bash on a lead attack makes for a very gimped assassin.

You do realize that "zipping around" is only one assassin build, pretty much relying on one attribute skill set to be remotely useful to a team in combat? For that matter, Assassin is probably a better secondary skill in PVP.

I agree that this is the most effective use of an assassin in PVP, but it sure makes PVE pretty dang difficult. To create a profession that is only good for one purpose seems silly to me. Even mesmers have three purposes in combat-- they can Ene Drain, degen, or interrupt.

As you mentioned, it already too easy to stop an assassin's chain attacks with something like shield block... there is also throw dirt, and ele's and monks have a plethora of evasion / block / even a blind skills to chose from. Once one attack in the chain doesn't land, you pretty much have to run and wait on energy and recharges.

I don't think opening up Wild Strike is that big of a deal, seeing how gimped they already are... And an assassin on a ranger, may as well sit down and have a cup of tea if he's packed Escape and Lightning Reflexes, which I almost always do.

Even Warrior's Cunning has a time limit on it, as opposed to a set number of attacks. And sticking Way of the Lotus in Shadow Arts makes a Dagger/Deadly Arts or a Crit strikes/Dagger build all but impossible to play.

majoho · Aug 17, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion

There aren't many skills that remove stances. (I thought wild blow and strike were it)

Yes, I realize that I guess that while they aren't that similar they are the only ones that removes a stance.

Doesn't the assassin have a stance "stealer" skill as well btw.

stamenflicker · Aug 17, 2006, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by majoho

Yes, I realize that I guess that while they aren't that similar they are the only ones that removes a stance.

Doesn't the assassin have a stance "stealer" skill as well btw.

You're right, I take it back. They get Expose Defenses... energy cost is 10 and for 10 seconds target foe cannot block or evade. So it costs twice what the Warrior skill does, and the Warrior doesn't really depend on energy to attack. So it's better than I thought at first, but less than ideal since the assassin is sacrificing nearly half his energy to do it, and he unlike the Warrior, cannot rely on adreanline or even strength/weapon additions to inflict significant damage.

Epinephrine · Aug 17, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

I think that the loss of all adrenaline on the warrior skill is a real killer for most warrior builds...

I do agree that Wild strike is a bit weak; I'd like to see it become more spammable perhaps, maybe moved to be a lead attack.

Lead attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +8...18...21 damage and target foe loses 1 Stance.

Hmm, looks much better that way. In the same way that Wild Strike has a nasty effect for warriors (disabling their skill chain by eliminating all adrenaline) it could be bumped up in effect but limit the effectiveness of future attacks for example, by costing energy

Lead Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +8...18...21 damage and target foe loses 1 Stance; if it misses, Wild Strike recharges instantly.

There, that way you can spend a bunch of your precious energy on it very rapidly, essentially doing what a Wild Blow does - limiting your future attacks. It costs an average of 20 energy to end a 75% blocking stance, which is a pretty big delay in throwing a major chain; that energy recovers in 15 seconds, faster with critical strikes helping bring it up; a warrior may well be using 6+ adrenaline skills and thus recharges them in lets say 7 or so swings, so maybe 10 seconds. So the assassin is delayed more when it comes to making a full chain, but has access to skills still if he has the energy for them; thus you could follow with an energy gaining attack. Still, maybe it needs a little bonus to bring it closer to where the warrior is.

Lead Attack. If it hits, this attack strikes for +8...18...21 damage. If the foe struck was using a stance that stance is ended and you gain 5 energy; if it misses, Wild Strike recharges instantly.

Ok, now it's only a 15 loss on average, cutting it to about 11 seconds, similar to the 10 it takes a warrior to get a good adrenaline charge back, with the possibility of losing more, or of hitting on the first swing, getting a free attack essentially and starting your chain.

Lambentviper · Aug 19, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

And really, not all stances are evade/block. Ending Practiced Stance on a seeking or choking ranger is very effective and keeps pressure off of your casters and monks.

Blinding Power + Unseen Fury is very effective as well

Apocrypha · Sep 03, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Using 2 skills to stop a stance? What if you don't run into one, 2 wasted skills (1, because blind is useful) plus the fact that I have to go out of my attributes to do so, I think not.

Now let's look at fox fangs shall we, it will hit through the blocked or evade and has a 8 second recharge instead. However, it won't remove a stance. Methinks that just making it hit through block and evade with no side effects is bad, make it a 10 or 12 second recharge and possibly 10 energy too. However, now it's a lot more useful and doesn't get into my build because I can't spare that energy. Side effects... perhaps no chance of citical?

Wild blow also has a bonus, it's a guarunteed critical, for hammers that's a LOT of damage, use it for your first hit and they will be half dead before the monks realize it. Lose all adrenaline doesn't matter for a first strike and the bonus of a critical hit is pretty sweet. (especially for an assassin who can make it cost only 1 energy and recharge critical defenses with it)

Wild Strike doesn't have a critical hit, so maybe it can stay at 5 energy, stay in my build and be semi useful. Most of the stances I want to stop are the evade/block stances, otherwise I don't even care because they're dead before it's useful.

Quote:

Ending Practiced Stance on a seeking or choking ranger is very effective and keeps pressure off of your casters and monks.

But it has a 15 second recharge, it will be back before you know, it, can't stay on a ranger all day. Besides it's a stance that you would use just before using choking gas, which extends choking gas over 15 seconds for any decent user of it. Anyway, it just doesn't help at all, 2 energy for the ranger, 5 energy for you. A lot of other stances you might want to stop are like that too, frenzy, flurry, tiger's stance, tiger's fury, they recharge so fast it doesn't matter if it's removed for a short period of time. The blocking ones you want to stop and they have huge recharges. Run stances can be countered with cripple.

Zuranthium · Sep 08, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28

The problem with assassins (I still love 'em, though) is that the entire attack chain is ruined with a missed attack. It shouldn't be like that. If you simply perform an attack skill it should open up the next level in your chain.

Zuranthium · Sep 08, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lambentviper

And really, not all stances are evade/block. Ending Practiced Stance on a seeking or choking ranger is very effective and keeps pressure off of your casters and monks.

Blinding Power + Unseen Fury is very effective as well

Yes, but it takes up 2 skill slots AND pretty much requires that you use Palm Strike as your Elite because Blinding Powder has to follow a successful offhand attack and Palm Strike is the only one that will never miss.

Terra Xin · Sep 08, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

you're missing the point that blinding + unseen fury are two combined skills that causes "blindness" and anti evade and block "over a duration". Wild blow is one skill, and it only does one thing... once.

Zuranthium · Sep 08, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

The effect of Unseen Fury + Blinding Powder is not as good as what Wild Blow + another skill can do. Plus, as I already stated, Blinding Powder relies on another skill to even work. It's simply not good enough. If Blinding Powder was changed to a touch spell with no requirements THEN it would be a nice combination.

Imagine Shock only being able to knock down people who are casting spells. Nobody would use it. Just as nobody should use blinding powder for serious play in its current state.

Arcador · Sep 09, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Wild strike is best used with the skill that gives you next 5 hits unblockable and nonevadable. Otherwise it is only good vs run stances and similar other types. Vs certain builds can deliver quite a punch!