Curse

mercenary71 · Sep 20, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Only samples but ran groups of 10 samples with multiple builds and for a 15 str and 16 sword using a Dragonslash combo. In my test Tiger Stance killed the 4 dummies 3% faster than flurry.

I also tested Sun & Moon versus Silverwing Slash with 10 samples each got 4% faster by using Sun & Moon as the 3rd skill in the Dragonslash combo instead of Silverwing most likely due to the fact that even though Sun & Moon does less damage directly compared to Silverwing it helps recharge the combo just a little bit faster.

Finally I tested the Flurry build with 15 strength and with 1 strength with 10 samples each to get a ballpark for what the effect would be to drop strength when using no strength based skills. My result was I was 6.6% faster on average with the higher strength.

I'd be interested to see what the math comes out on those. I might give it a shot tomorrow when I have more time.

Thom Bangalter · Sep 20, 2006, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercenary71

Only samples but ran groups of 10 samples with multiple builds and for a 15 str and 16 sword using a Dragonslash combo. In my test Tiger Stance killed the 4 dummies 3% faster than flurry.

I also tested Sun & Moon versus Silverwing Slash with 10 samples each got 4% faster by using Sun & Moon as the 3rd skill in the Dragonslash combo instead of Silverwing most likely due to the fact that even though Sun & Moon does less damage directly compared to Silverwing it helps recharge the combo just a little bit faster.

Finally I tested the Flurry build with 15 strength and with 1 strength with 10 samples each to get a ballpark for what the effect would be to drop strength when using no strength based skills. My result was I was 6.6% faster on average with the higher strength.

I'd be interested to see what the math comes out on those. I might give it a shot tomorrow when I have more time.

who the hell runs 15 strength EVER?

mercenary71 · Sep 20, 2006, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

who the hell runs 15 strength EVER?

Any chance you could actually add something constructive to the discussion? I actually run 15 strength with 16 sword lots of times and sometimes go 14 str, 15 swd, 8 healing if I run live vicariously for extra healing. I'm usually the last one standing if my group gets wiped so I know my build works fine as far as keeping me alive and maximizing damage output. Just because you don't use strength in your build doesn't mean nobody else does or that anybody who does is a noob...

SnipiousMax · Sep 20, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercenary71

<snip>

Then enlighten us why running 15 strength is worth losing health for. What do you get for those two additional points in strength? Really?

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 20, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

15 str?

-150 hp?

He's got some serious monk workin' for him that's for sure... It's too bad Strength is the WORST primary attribute in the game thanks to repeated nerfing and that 15 str is by mechanic, the most useless way to build a warrior...

Str. attack skills suck.
Why you'd need so many extra AL with Dolyak doesn't make sense.
Endure/Defy Pain? no Elite Weapon? wtf?
Tiger Stance, erm, ok now that's not a bad idea but still...

Yeah, I don't know about mercenary71, but I've seen people running a lot less strength contribute a lot more to a party's objective than one with 15 str...

Is that constructive enough for you?

mercenary71 · Sep 20, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

If health becomes an issue then I swap the relevant armor piece to a minor rune but in general I don't have problems with health so I boost strength to get the max duration on the tiger stance, a little extra AP (when using attack skills of course), endure pain and if running a dolyak sig (depends on the area) both of those skills work significantly better on higher strength. I also have tactics based builds as well - just like most people out there I change builds to suit the mission and/or my mood at the time. If I can keep myself alive without putting undue pressure on the monks I'm usually just looking to kill stuff as fast as possible.

The point wasn't to discuss the whole build but just to run a consistent set of numbers to compare and contrast flurry and tiger stance which are two IAS skills relevant to this thread.

mercenary71 · Sep 20, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

15 str?

-150 hp?

He's got some serious monk workin' for him that's for sure... It's too bad Strength is the WORST primary attribute in the game thanks to repeated nerfing and that 15 str is by mechanic, the most useless way to build a warrior...

Str. attack skills suck.
Why you'd need so many extra AL with Dolyak doesn't make sense.
Endure/Defy Pain? no Elite Weapon? wtf?
Tiger Stance, erm, ok now that's not a bad idea but still...

Yeah, I don't know about mercenary71, but I've seen people running a lot less strength contribute a lot more to a party's objective than one with 15 str...

Is that constructive enough for you?

Do you mind reading the posts before you flame? The build used for comparison was based on the Dragonslash combo so obviously there's an elite weapon skill. I seriously don't care if you like my build or not it's not the point of this thread.

Try sticking to the point of the post which is IAS skills.

Thom Bangalter · Sep 20, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

OR...

you could just be bad. I feel bad for rera, considering he typed up that very nice post for us and you had to come in talking about your "godly" 15 strength.

Strength is terrible, the fact that you run 15 in it and 16 weaponmastery means you're terrible, so let's move on. (not flaming, just pointing out truths) The simple fact that you're running dual superiors in ANY enviornment, makes me a sad panda.

Based on Rera's post, we see that flurry gives you a 1.5x increase in adrenaline and attack skills used aren't altered by the decreased damage. Since it's not attribute linked, is easily spammable, and gives you a minor drawback, flurry is king for pve.

(I should point out he's not getting "2 additional" points of strength, most good builds have around 9, so he's actually investing WAY too much in strength. Of course sometimes a warrior runs slightly more if they're running bull's charge warrior or something, or doing HA where Heal sig is not seen)

SnipiousMax · Sep 20, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

I checked your numbers Rera, everythings solid (and very impressive)!
Reiterates what you've been saying all along.

I've been using Flurry with my ranger, but for different reasons. I use it and a zealous mod to increase my energy regen to let me use more energy attacks. And since the +damage isn't effected, my damage doesn't take much of a hit at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

(I should point out he's not getting "2 additional" points of strength)

I understand that of course.... but 13 was what you can get without a superiour or major rune, and that is what I was refering, too. Much simplier to convince someone that they've wasted health on two attribute points as the gain isn't great from 13 to 15, than try and convince them that the gain isn't great from 9 to 15 (which is true, and I completely agree!

).

mercenary71 · Sep 20, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

OR...

you could just be bad. I feel bad for rera, considering he typed up that very nice post for us and you had to come in talking about your "godly" 15 strength.

Strength is terrible, the fact that you run 15 in it and 16 weaponmastery means you're terrible, so let's move on. (not flaming, just pointing out truths) The simple fact that you're running dual superiors in ANY enviornment, makes me a sad panda.

Based on Rera's post, we see that flurry gives you a 1.5x increase in adrenaline and attack skills used aren't altered by the decreased damage. Since it's not attribute linked, is easily spammable, and gives you a minor drawback, flurry is king for pve.

(I should point out he's not getting "2 additional" points of strength, most good builds have around 9, so he's actually investing WAY too much in strength. Of course sometimes a warrior runs slightly more if they're running bull's charge warrior or something, or doing HA where Heal sig is not seen)

OR

You could be taking the fact that I published what stats I was using when running my test and twisting that into me saying that I have a "godly" attribute which again has nothing to do with flurry versus tiger stance (or any IAS) and is just another flame. Why are you so hung up on the fact that I typed in what stats I used for a test to ensure I had 10 seonds for TS?!?

Unless you actually either run some live-fire examples showing one or the other is better or come up with some mathematical results proving the same I don't see how you can say one or the other is better. At this point all I see you doing is spouting venom which is unrelated to the topic at hand to say that somebody else is terrible as well as being absurdly conceited.

Snipious - Like I said if I'm getting beat down I will swap the sup rune but that generally hasn't been a problem for me even with PUG monks (or henchie monks) and I have no issues swapping both sup runes if the circumstances dictate. The only intent as just posting the test bed I was using to get my results. I wasn't trying to push my overall build/stats on anybody.

With regards to Rera's post I think that's one thing we agree on that it was a well written post that stated you had to consider the tradeoff between the extra damage you do by having your adrenal skills charge slightly faster versus the difference in damage from the 25% penalty on your base attack damage. I was actually trying to run a live demo to compare the two skill sets. If anybody else has a different approach to running a live test I'd be interested in trying it out.

GreyWolfeHaven · Sep 20, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Wow - do some reading here and all I see are a batch of flame posts. Must be lots of teens or pre-teens posting in here who do not have a clue as to how to disagree and state why they disagree. I have a strong suggestion for them, take a basic English composition class and learn how to use critical thinking skills (and yes, the flamer posts do not have a clue on how to use such skills). I am sure there is a Critical Thinking For Dummies book out there that may help them along.

Honestly, for testing purposes, what difference does it make when doing a testing against training dummies. For combat purposes, it may be questionable to have two superior runes that depletes your health, but not always a wrong choice, such as the 55 monk build - which, on a side note, is funny in that when they die, if you do not have a rez sig, you can't help them at all.

On some testing I have seen elsewhere, where having the superior rune on some skill sets provided no advantages over having no runes or a major or minor.

I would strongly suggest for the flamers to take the time and try his base testing methods with your own build and mods, make your own observations, record the data, post the data and differences you found, and then if it is better, brag about how you know your build is the most awesome one and the godly of the bunch instead of just crap opinion with no facts to back it up. I would tend to at least listen to a guy who tried various examples of testing to get some sort of validation to his tests instead of a batch of guys who have nothing to back up what they say.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 22, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

I don't have time to do base testing on stuff that I know doesn't work... Rera posted the numbers and it takes almost common sense to realize a few things...

Invalid tests: tests that don't occur under ideal conditions.

Invalid tests don't prove much if anything, I run into lots of those in college enough that I don't need to see them here. And if I do, I have a right to say something about it. I can say it sucks, as an opinion, or say it sucks, as a fact, in either case... it sucks!

Logically speaking: even if you do run 2 sup. runes and you switch armors in mid fight, you're gaining two atb points at the cost of 75 hp and then losing two atb points to get your 75 hp back...

In areas where under all your 100+AL, where monsters can swing for 150+ dmg, 75 hp probably isn't much of a difference, but I'm sure [look at the skill descriptions] that the worth of benefit from 2 points of strength does not add up in raw number to 75 points of anything... I'm about to pass out from being sleepy but if you look at all the strength skills, very few if any of them are worth using...

So in an ideal environment where your stats do matter, 15 str and 16 weapon spreads a warrior out WAAYYY too thin in terms of attribute use.

What's that mean? You're a one trick pony, you can be shut down far easier than a warrior with just a 3rd stat...

Tactics help you live long than strength skills will help you kill faster... At least through my experience...

When it comes to practical things, experience beats controlled testing...
Any of you here [aside from mercenary71] have a good experience and good flexibility thinking of running 2 superior runes?

Until game mechanics dictate otherwise, 2 superior -75 hp runes on a warrior just don't justify the gain, there's no other way to put it...

Show me a larger gain on strength skills with 2 points of strength than 75 hp and I'll stfu...

Thom Bangalter · Sep 22, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I understand that of course.... but 13 was what you can get without a superiour or major rune, and that is what I was refering, too. Much simplier to convince someone that they've wasted health on two attribute points as the gain isn't great from 13 to 15, than try and convince them that the gain isn't great from 9 to 15 (which is true, and I completely agree!

).

<3 for understanding.

@GreyWolfe: coincidentally, I'm an english major. Instead of writing out a well argued response to someone's crap attribute setting, I can just flame them and save myself 20 minutes writing out a post.

@Yukito: right on about the invalid tests.

If I ran 16 weaponmastery 15 strength, I'm sure Tiger's stance would be awewsome, until I get blinded/displacement goes up/I get any number of hexes from eles or necros/aegis or guardian go up.

Only time i'd consider tiger's stance is if I was in a gvg match and I was a dedicated ganker, and I ganked without any kind of healing support beyond heal sig.

mercenary71 · Sep 22, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

@Yuk
If you don't run any testing and still spout your opinion as if you are absolutely 100% right and you have no basis for your argument that just makes you arrogant and lazy. Doesn't the mathematical formula also only apply to ideal conditions? If so why is the mathematical formula a valid point but the live-fire test invalid? If you never use strength skills then why do you post on their effectiveness? You might as well start posting on professions that you've never run...

With any build if it works it works and my experience shows it works for me. I'm pretty sure that there is no perfect build in GW so why do you assume everybody else that has a different build sucks? Like I said I have more than 1 build (like just about every warrior) and I use what works for that area. If I was in an area where you are taking ridiculous amount of damage (killing Glint in final battle for example) I swapped out all of my sup runes before the battle even started since you will eat 400 damage before you can blink when crystal skin goes up in the middle of the fight. For UW I'd be a stance tank running max tactics and no IAS at all. In other quests/missions if my health stays above 75% for the entire mission then I've really not lost anything by having a second sup rune so why would anybody care about 75 hp if I'm above 75% health the whole mission?? If I haven't really lost anything and I did gain something (more time on Tiger Stance, no gaps if running dolyak, extra AP, extra time/hp on endure pain) then why not?

@Thom
Why do you continue to bring up PvP arguments against something that was specifically mentioned as being for PvE? I thought English majors are supposed to be able to read fairly well? In PvP I wouldn't run Tiger Stance because I agree it would not be useful since human players run a lot more blocking stances/skills than you will ever see in PvE in which case Tiger Stance would be horribly ineffective.

If you get blinded you are shut down regardless of which IAS you use. In PvE human monks rarely remove blind and henchies pretty much never do (if they do it's usually on accident if they happen to remove a degen condition). In that case it is less important which stance you use and more important that you have condition removal. If you are stuck fighting blind then you are worthless except as a meatshield. In PvE my experience is you get blinded much more frequently than you run into the skills you listed above.

jesh · Sep 24, 2006, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I checked your numbers Rera, everythings solid (and very impressive)!
Reiterates what you've been saying all along.

I've been using Flurry with my ranger, but for different reasons. I use it and a zealous mod to increase my energy regen to let me use more energy attacks. And since the +damage isn't effected, my damage doesn't take much of a hit at all.

Why not use frenzy? I assume, since you use flurry, that you're in PVE. When I play my ranger in PVE, I rarely get targeted, if ever. Things that hit me are usually things like earthquake, the first wave of searing heat, etc. You have +30 to elements as a ranger.
I find that you *still* take less from these things than a caster, if you have frenzy on. It's nothing a troll unguent or the like can't fix, and you get an additional whatever percent of damage.

I know what you mean about using it for energy though, it's lovely to be able to activte an IAS and watch your energy shoot up.
At any rate, it's nice to see a ranger using an IAS in PVE, not something I see very often at all.

Out of curiosity, do you really do forge runs on that character?

SnipiousMax · Sep 24, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Why not use frenzy?

I do, when I'm with Henchmen, or with a group I trust. It's just not a widely accepted practice to use frenzy in PvE.

PuG's aren't too forgiving, when they think they smell stupidity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Out of curiosity, do you really do forge runs on that character?

I did a run with Snipe once all the way from becons to droks... I will NEVER do it again.

Reiki's the ranger drok runner guy.

Forge Runner is just the message board title, it's auto assigned once you reach a certain number of posts.

jesh · Sep 24, 2006, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Haha, I see.. although I can't say I've ever had a PuG yell at my ranger. When things die quickly, the general consensus is that our elementalist must be really good. Anyways.. back on topic. Yeah. Flurry. Yeah. It's funny, I got a lot of arguement for that same opinion a few days ago.

Dahnel · Sep 24, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Distracting Blow ends Tiger Stance. Ftl.

twicky_kid · Sep 24, 2006, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Beserker's stance + on your knees

I've used this in a few hammer builds work well.

Rera · Sep 24, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

"On Your Knees!" makes a lot of otherwise mediocre stances pretty amazing. W/R and R/W hammer builds are in the habit of using OYK with Lightning Reflexes. LR is normally pretty useless, having a 5~10s duration and a 60s recharge, but if you can keep it recharged it suddenly becomes one of the best stances in the game.

Distracting Blow ends Tiger Stance? That probably due to the fact that you attack, but do no damage, which is probably how the stance determines whether you 'hit' or not. That fact alone makes Tiger Stance worse than Flurry in my book, because I always bring Distracting Blow :/.