Curse

Carinae · May 12, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

How, exactly, do you justify this as an over-nerf in your mind?

I am going to defer this question a little longer, until I finish the game. I am 90% through, and since I wrote that, have gained some insight into my frustration on this.

We certainly aren't useless, and I wasn't implying that at the time I wrote it. But I will say, that yes, it isn't as bad as it initially seemed. And there is a reason for that, that I will explain later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I've never seen this problem of lack of momentum from mob to mob.

Then do some of the city quests as a MM.

Not sure where you're going? "Oh crap, wrong way, gotta go wayyyyy around a city block!" (minion wipe)

"Somebody take the lightsabers away from the Jade Knights!"

"Oh look, a smiting monk boss using Ray of Judgement!"
(single-hit minion wipe....really! All 10 in one hit!)

"Oh look, a luxon ele boss boss using Meteor Shower!"
(total party/minion wipe, except me because BotM is the new Orders)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Sure you can't stand around waiting with a pack of fiends the same way you could with Verata's, but standing around waiting isn't exactly something I've made a habit of in PvE. Maybe it's a playstyle thing.

No usually it's go-go-go, but there are times when you just need to sit there and maintain.

"Where did Orozar go? Someone go find him, I'll wait here."

THK? Enough said.

Verata's Sacrifice was less of a healing/regen spell, than a lifespan extender. It doubled a minions lifespan. Averaged out, that's all it did for minions.

But it had another effect on the PLAYER (me), it gave me 21 seconds to 'take a break'. 21 seconds to take a drink, flex my hands, let the dog in/out, answer the phone.... Verata's was how MMs dealt with "Real Life", inconvenient as it is. Every other class can go AFK and return with little consequence. Not MM's, and especially not anymore. 21 seconds now, with no BotM? Minion Wipe.

Here's the specific issue:

The minion cap, changes the nature of Verata's Sacrifice.

The cap doesn't prevent new minions from being cast, it destroys the oldest when exceeded. So because of the minion cap, you could have kept all minions at +10 regen constantly.

Solutions?

Make the VS effect 'easily interruptable' on the minions, so they won't have +10 while in combat, but WILL have it while traveling/waiting.

or....

Make it so you CAN'T cast another minion until you're below the cap.

or....

Just leave VS as is, in favor of making as small a change as possible.... That's just common engineering sense. Cap us, and see how that goes. We only have 10 now, I mean how bad can it be?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It has to be that way - I mean, can you really argue that something that's ridiculously overpowered has to *always* be ridiculously overpowered, because nerfing it would be too big of a change? Of course not.

Of course not, but they made the rules, and they left the rules in place for a YEAR, so I don't feel too bad about becoming set in my ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I do not wish to argue whether the resentment that always comes with someone's pet character being nerfed is justified or not. I don't feel that emotions are something that one ever has to justify.

What I am asking is that your resentment not cloud your judgement about the current strength of minion masters, and whether or not the change made sense on those grounds.

Fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The other big problem with that sort of change is how it will negatively affect a lot of other mechanics that were previously balanced - for example, spammable protection skills would lose a huge amount of utility if they would simply fail if enough enchantments were around.....

No, because it would push an enchantment off the bottom of the stack, not fail to cast. It wouldn't break anything, unless you were depending on the bottom enchant.

Conversely, they could have made minions spells fail if you were over the cap, and that would have solved the VS issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

A hard minion cap directly addresses the problem they are trying to attack - enormous minion armies. I will agree that it is not an elegant solution.

I don't take it as given that it was a problem to begin with. Firepower isn't everything, and can be outplayed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Are you really looking for the explanation that you've probably already seen and might understand logically, just for confirmation?

I'm seeking dialog, because there ARE other balance choices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Or are you looking for someone to say it so that you can fire back and disagree with them?

Not at all.

Thank you for taking the time to write such a good post!
Carinae

Loch · May 13, 2006, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Going through the Factions campaign, I have to say that Minionmasters are still the most productive players in PvE, hands down. They let the team mow through entire missions without breaking a sweat, and "aggro" means nothing when you can just charge in and machine-gun hoardes of enemies.

The biggest result of the minion cap is that an MM's maximum potential now makes sense in the context of the other professions. Before, MM's could get such a ridiculously huge army that none of the other players in your party mattered anymore. This potential wasn't a problem in PvP because the goal isn't to rip the stuffing out of the 200 punching bags between you and the exit, with each bag adding to your offense each time. The minion cap makes little difference in PvP, but finally puts the MM's maximum potential into perspective in PvE.

Undead Preacher · May 13, 2006, 04:52 AM // 04:52

OKAY listen...

The +40 minions is over... V. Sacrifice is weak as shit.

But when you keep casting minions it keeps the "10" minions at full strength..

Since the cap has been set at 10, theres no need for V. Sacrifice.. and BotM works well enough for the traveling..

I run an MM and still own... more powerful with 30 more minions but I just walked through factions with henches and had no problems, so PLZ stop complaining... it gets you nowhere...

Your making necros look bad in general... QUIT CRYING and evolve with the changes.... the Golem makes me a little happier since the nerf... just give it a rest. It made every MM mad obviously... but shit happens, get over it!

( NOT A FLAME, just a reality check)

Metanoia · May 13, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Not only do we feel blindsided by the change, but a flat cap on minions basically says Anet doesn't understand the build well enough to balance it properly.

I'd always felt my MM was rather overpowered and honestly expected it to be "nerfed" awhile ago.

There's still Glyph of Renewal if you miss Vereta's Sacrifice that much. The new 'Minions =< 3 instant recharge' makes me think they planned on it being mainly for Golemancers.

To be honest, I think the minion cap is quite reasonable. It's still a great meat shield and a very respectable source of DPS. Because you can't snowball-sweep a map, it's overnerfed? Nothing should ever have been that strong, in my opinion.

AoE dominating your minions; Isn't this what the skill system is all about? Perhaps give your other 250 or so skills a chance when you're up against heavy AoE like the Jade Brotherhood. Minions shouldn't be able to take on anything. Enemies with MM counters should dominate you if you choose to use MM against them.

kinetik · May 13, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

i dont get it...you all complain because you cant have 40+ minions anymore.

im new to the necro class and i just hit the survivor title because my 10 minions ate everything that stood in their way. ive been on a few groups with no monk where i was the lowest level and where everyone else died except me simply because of the vampire minions. all i had to do was stand back a little and spam botm and id get instantly healed again so i could spam it some more.

if its this easy with 10 minions i cant believe you guys are actually complaining about not being able to have 40. as someone posted before, sounds to me like you just want an "i win" button. (that you already have with 10 minions)

if its about not having 40 in pvp. isnt it obvious the other team sucks if they even let you have 40 minions to begin with?

Carinae · May 13, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I finished the last two missions last night, and took a break. The changes are reasonable, I can live with them

Lets close this thread. Turn the page.

Kcp · May 14, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

See, I wasnt BSing yall. MM is still deadly.....don't expect anything to live thru a lvl 28 boss that spams spirit rift, earthquake(dragon stomp now), or any aoe skills for that matter. Their damage is scaled to the bosses level

Taking -320 damage from a spirit rift on a necro with max armor should tell you something. Don't expect anything to sit thru that kind of damage , veratas sacrifice pre-nerf or not.

It's awhole new ballgame, and I love it except for all the fed-ex quests.

Arkyn sei · May 14, 2006, 09:44 AM // 09:44

I agree,but MM's Are no way nerfed. Even with 10 minions they are still very powerfull plus with the add on of the flesh golem.... i see no problems.

nebuchanezzar · May 14, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by kinetik

i dont get it...you all complain because you cant have 40+ minions anymore.

im new to the necro class and i just hit the survivor title because my 10 minions ate everything that stood in their way. ive been on a few groups with no monk where i was the lowest level and where everyone else died except me simply because of the vampire minions. all i had to do was stand back a little and spam botm and id get instantly healed again so i could spam it some more.

if its this easy with 10 minions i cant believe you guys are actually complaining about not being able to have 40. as someone posted before, sounds to me like you just want an "i win" button. (that you already have with 10 minions)

if its about not having 40 in pvp. isnt it obvious the other team sucks if they even let you have 40 minions to begin with?

Yes it really was that powerful before and some feel the loss of power greatly lol. Much like the Eles felt the first time a bunch of mobs started doing a crazy spaz dance under 3 Meteor Showers 2 Maelstroms and 3 Firestorms.

Everyone shed your last tear, pour your last 40, tip your last glass, whatever. The MM is still standing. Still one of the most powerful forces in PvE at least.

Blkout · May 15, 2006, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiceX

Guys...it was broken.
Get over it.

Saying it took some sort of "skill" does not mean it did.
It does not make it any less broken.
Find another skill to exploit.

Couldn't agree more. As a MM, there is really no need to have more than 10 minions at once to get the job done.

marfarn · May 15, 2006, 11:27 AM // 11:27

At first, I was upset at the changes and hated them to the point where I wanted to delete my Necro. But after playing it for a while now, the changes don't seem to have that much on an impact. I had to adjust my MM playing style a bit, and things are well under way again.

The 10Minions only cap actually makes things more interesting. I find myself blowing up and re-creating minions in the middle of combat, without having to use ToD. The only slight problem is BotM eating away my HP when having 10 minions. Monks just got to pay a tad more attention to me. Also, with the increased range of BotM things are much more enjoyable nowadays.

The nerf down to 10 Minions together with Animat Flesh Golem balances things out quite nice, since the Flesh Golem is quite a beast (seeing a 137 crit damage every now and then just puts a smile on my face).

I found having 1 Flesh Golem, 5 Horrors and 4 Fiends does the job quite nice in the Factions Quests/Missions.

So after all, I'm glad I kept my Necro

Atomic Arson · May 15, 2006, 10:04 PM // 22:04

/agreed
/signed

this nerf if just plain wrong

Beat_Go_Stick · May 15, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

This again?

If you don't think a Minion Master is still way powerful in PvE, you are doing something wrong. I will also miss the old days with minions from a single Necro lining the battlefield but it's really not like they didn't deserve to be nerfed.

Again...
It was fun.
It was broken.
Get over it.
Let it go.

Sarevok Thordin · May 16, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Just read through this trainwreck of a thread.

Anyone who was in the FPE KNEW that this was coming. Minionmancers could rampage through the map, laying waste to anything and everything that they came accross. At one point MONKS were being kicked out in favor of MMs.

Nowadays a MM with curses is still freakishly powerful, assassins were the next icing on the cake to counter MMs (jump in and slaughter the MM), course if the cap wasn't there things would get VERY hairy.

The changes were for the best.

elLOCOmutha · Sep 21, 2006, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Great job Anet, keep up the refinement of the game for the good of everyone.

Safer Saviour · Sep 21, 2006, 12:46 PM // 12:46

If I could get 40 odd minions... I'd be a minion master

. As it stands, I run pretty much everything else, so I'm sorta sad that the minion cap exists but if it didn't, no SS or Bloodspiker would ever be welcomed into a party in Factions.

joncoish · Sep 24, 2006, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Are you kidding me? I recently started a necromancer, using him as a minion master, and I've been tearing through the missions easier then I could with any other character of mine. I'd hate to think what it'd be like with 40 or so minions. Maybe you don't like the change because it alters how you're used to playing, but how can you say that number of minions WASN'T overpowered? I don't have experience with that number of minions, but just going by my experience now I can imagine.

The Last Preacher · Sep 25, 2006, 07:02 AM // 07:02

As said somewhere.

The update was made to make minions stronger and less of them. Sounds a fair trade especially with the nightfall skills coming out.

Carinae · Sep 25, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Thready Necromancy FTW. Appropriate forum at least. Some admin please close this thread.

manager · Sep 25, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

edit: oh snap ... nevermind me... x_x