Curse

CKaz · May 01, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Troll bait notwithstanding above (Karmaniac, JimmyDean) this was a double damage nerf saccing verata sac AND limiting Minions to 10. As with a lot of things it was with the new classes (Ri/N bombing) and new missions (ridiculous amounts of things spawning and thus corpses in Cantha) that really pointed out a tweak was needed. Overdone? A bit maybe I'd say, yeah.

But my first suggestion is to keep up a max 10, you'll just have to spend 5 more energy to do it and you'll get Verata last 10 sec on 15sec recharge, by going /ele and Glyph of Renewal. Biggest bummer there is though you can't have the Flesh Golem at the same time

Second suggestion is more with BotM and Heal Area when you can get them back to you. Third is keep a band of 3 with Flesh golem in the mix.

Even there... why not allow at least 5 minions for a 10-15 sec Verata recharge at least? Dont even want instant, I'd rather it wait until it's worthwhile again. If anything some of these counter responses are more childish than some of the nerf cries - like they've done before instead of being gentle they went in with a hammer.

I think it'll still be viable, there are a use for other corpse spells now, and more MMs might even be useful in a group which isnt a bad thing. That said the 10 limit and hitting a key skill of it so hard in the nads certainly shook up the class. Most obviously it makes quality >> quantity with those numbers, minions look particularly out of place w/o minion bombing.

I don't know if 4 off the bat and 1 for each point in DM would have been so bad (20 limit) but so it goes. Again I'm guessing it's more about the new Ritualist skills mixed in and some of the dynamics of the new missions, pve and pvp with all those NPCs.

edit - kdhoney44 yeah first char Ele, second Nec, so I imagine next the Warr goes down lol
but with that said my Ele still rocks the house and my Nec will too, if I could use GoR with Flesh Golem would be better tho :b heh

UndeadRoadkill · May 01, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyDean

As for MM in pvp, youre stronger than ever! Instead of a few crappy level 18 and 19 fiends, now you get flesh golem and vampiric horror. You guys are completely overlooking what you have gained. Its not like youre going to have a huge army in pvp to begin with, so youre much better off with these stronger minions. If you all quit crying for a few moments and try out what youve got now, youll realize youre much better off.

A. I don't even care about PvP, what have I gained?

B. The nerf was not an update that gave us vhorrors and golems. You have to buy factions to get them. And we already knew they were going to be in factions, nerf or no.

JimmyDean · May 01, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

So, i suppose a troll is anyone that doesnt agree with you, Ckaz? Either way, from my own experiences, MM is still very viable even without the giant-40-minion-steamroller-army-of-death-that-clears-missions-in-seconds. A few fiends add quite a bit of DPS to the group, and they are very easy to keep alive with just botm now.

bobrath · May 01, 2006, 08:01 PM // 20:01

What if they had made summon degen dependant upon summon count? So with just 1 summon around you'd see almost no degen on that summon. When you get to say 10 summons, the degen on all summons would be what is pre update. Going to 20 summons would double (for instance) degen on all summons.

and of course revert VS to pre update status.

IF they're already counting summons, and they want to reduce the typical army... this would work. Or would the MM horde decry the "unfunness" of having to optimize summoning instead of just being able to spam between summon skills and VS/BOTM/HA?

I do agree that the dual change to VS and limiting summon count was a large reaction. I do not agree that somehow the game has become less fun for MMs... unless fun = easy.

Evilsod · May 01, 2006, 08:07 PM // 20:07

I'd rather they increase either hte number of minions or increase the level of them. 30 Fiends at lvl18/19 could form a nice wall and make for a decent DPS but in high level areas got annihilated in about 2 hits. I'm simply not gonna waste my elite slot for the Golem unless i can get more than 1. How can you call it an elite when your limited to 1?

JimmyDean · May 01, 2006, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

What if they had made summon degen dependant upon summon count? So with just 1 summon around you'd see almost no degen on that summon. When you get to say 10 summons, the degen on all summons would be what is pre update. Going to 20 summons would double (for instance) degen on all summons.

I like this idea tbh. This would give you the option to just have a few minions to augment your other skills, or go all out and try to support a larger army. Keeping a large army together was too easy before, but i think this may be a good solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I'm simply not gonna waste my elite slot for the Golem unless i can get more than 1. How can you call it an elite when your limited to 1?

You can only have one elite

.

Minus Sign · May 01, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

I wouldn't be having as much of a problem if this nerf dropped us to 18-20 summonables. Nova Bomber and cheers. But 10? AoE at higher levels kills 10 minions like they aren't there. Any AoE; minions don't run. No one whose ever played an MM is going to sit still for that: letting a 15mana skill destroy several minutes of work, all your damage and a few hundred mana worth of effort. How the hell can anyone call this balanced? No; this was way too much; nerfing every other MM build out there for the sole purpose of promoting the Elite Summon and the new Horror.

Anet is proported to listen to its customer base. Well, listen to this: YOU WENT TOO FAR KIDS! You've overnerfed these skills to the point where they're useless in seeking to promote Factions. This is not the game I bought or the spirit of skill balancing. This was not a balance, this was a promotion trick. You screwed up, we know why, and we're telling you to fix it.

PS: to every MM posting here; ignore the trolls. Use this thread to explain your outrage, not to let those 12 year olds bait you into a flame war.

JimmyDean · May 01, 2006, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

Anet is proported to listen to its customer base. Well, listen to this: YOU WENT TOO FAR KIDS! You've overnerfed these skills to the point where they're useless in seeking to promote Factions. This is not the game I bought or the spirit of skill balancing. This was not a balance, this was a promotion trick. You screwed up, we know why, and we're telling you to fix it.

PS: to every MM posting here; ignore the trolls. Use this thread to explain your outrage, not to let those 12 year olds bait you into a flame war.

I think you might be reading a bit too much into this nerf

The skills are still usable as they are, you just have to think of a different way to use them imo.

PS: I play MM too. I like it how it is. Its much more fun

Karmaniac · May 01, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

In high school I was taught that exaggeration is a valid method of making ones point in an argument. Trolling as it may be I feel that there's at least a hint of truth in what I said. It seems surreal to me that people can insist on calling having 30+ lvl18 (and the occasional lvl19) rotting sidekicks balanced no matter how clearly it's pointed out. The new hot is that minions are a tool not a sledgehammer (altho some might argue they are the same). Want more minions? Get another MM then. My only wish is that there would be a reliable way to target your minions (having 2 options for cycling items strikes me as odd).

As for JimmyDean I don't see him trolling maybe you should check your eyes?

Live your life. Eat your cake.

JimmyDean · May 01, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmaniac

In high school I was taught that exaggeration is a valid method of making ones point in an argument. Trolling as it may be I feel that there's at least a hint of truth in what I said. It seems surreal to me that people can insist on calling having 30+ lvl18 (and the occasional lvl19) rotting sidekicks balanced no matter how clearly it's pointed out. The new hot is that minions are a tool not a sledgehammer (altho some might argue they are the same). Want more minions? Get another MM then. My only wish is that there would be a reliable way to target your minions (having 2 options for cycling items strikes me as odd).

As for JimmyDean I don't see him trolling maybe you should check your eyes?

Live your life. Eat your cake.

double ownage.

K.Ichigo · May 01, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

It seems obvious that most of you haven't even tried to make a new MM build yet. Either you're too lazy to try and create a build or you're just plain too stupid to do so. I've seen little if any arguments from people who listed reasons why the new skills don't work well together. It's just the same people whining about how they can't go on without their army of dozens.

UndeadRoadkill · May 01, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by K.Ichigo

It seems obvious that most of you haven't even tried to make a new MM build yet. Either you're too lazy to try and create a build or you're just plain too stupid to do so. I've seen little if any arguments from people who listed reasons why the new skills don't work well together. It's just the same people whining about how they can't go on without their army of dozens.

Funny, I've been seeing a lot of people who are disappointed because the fun they derived from MM was building a 20+ army, which is not possible now any way you slice it.

Njall · May 01, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyDean

I think you might be reading a bit too much into this nerf

The skills are still usable as they are, you just have to think of a different way to use them imo.

PS: I play MM too. I like it how it is. Its much more fun

I agree... Verata's sacrifice is usable... if you like to take a skill you're going to use once during a whole mission.
Actually (I just arrived to Cavalon), I have met 2 situations :
-there is plenty of mobs (Vizunah square, etc) : Verata's sacrifice is not really useful for you'll have 10 minions.. that means that recharge timer is 60 sec and during this time you could animate 10 fresh minions. BoTM is a bit dangerous for you'll have to pay 25% of life sacrifice to cast it.
-there is less opponents.. well.. sure Verata's sac can be used (0 recharge time).. but if there is few mobs, you don't need minions

Now, the great

part of this nerf is that the 2 others verata's spells are now totally useless (I don't need an aura to blow 10 minions in little pieces).
It has "killed" the N/R MM too : most of the N/R I met were using Healing spring, Winnowing and Serpent's quickness : with the number of pets limited to 10, Winnowing lose some interests.. same for SQ to increase rec speed of VS.. so.. Healing spring...well...yeah...great...

About the Factions skills :
Vhorrors are.. well... I don't like them : too expensive and I don't need the "heal".
Flesh golems : sure.. a big lvl 26 thing is quite impressive..still I prefer the Soulreaping Elite spell (interrupt).

Without speaking anymore of nerfs I'm rather disappointed by Factions for MM.
(but wells are quite good to battle Infected ones

)

Carinae · May 01, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

What if they had made summon degen dependant upon summon count? So with just 1 summon around you'd see almost no degen on that summon. When you get to say 10 summons, the degen on all summons would be what is pre update. Going to 20 summons would double (for instance) degen on all summons.

and of course revert VS to pre update status.

IF they're already counting summons, and they want to reduce the typical army... this would work. Or would the MM horde decry the "unfunness" of having to optimize summoning instead of just being able to spam between summon skills and VS/BOTM/HA?

I do agree that the dual change to VS and limiting summon count was a large reaction. I do not agree that somehow the game has become less fun for MMs... unless fun = easy.

16, 20, 30 or 32. They're all better than 10. It would be an improvement.

But they need to restore VS badly.

I think they are balancing on paper, and not actual experience. Just a few melee attackers can cut down dozens of fiends, and there are LOTS of counters available. Many of the counters themselves are overpowered, but they weren't nerfed!

Vamp Horrors. Yipee. Healing was the LEAST of my problems.

Mostly I'm upset because I think they just changed things to change them, without regard for the players.

Jeremy Untouchable · May 01, 2006, 10:24 PM // 22:24

I was makeing a MM hes lvl 9, i ran myself (2nd account)to copperhammer to get VS and wala making little armys so much fun. I guess i should have know it would get nerfed before i could get to lvl 20, .............lol bond 55 got nerfed before i got to try it. same with Ele AOE nerf, Dang i am behind the curve.....Owell, back to killing the "KILROY" Assassins with my tank, Now if i could just run to the jade quarry, DANG LOCKED DOORS.........OUT

JimmyDean · May 01, 2006, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Mostly I'm upset because I think they just changed things to change them, without regard for the players.

Now thats just not true.

golem bigstick · May 01, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wicked Shadow

So...you're saying being MM now isn't fun? I see lots of potential in being one. I had a blast in doing the first Canthan mission with my Tyrian necro by being a MM. Sure, 10's the highest you can go now, but that's still a pretty good sized mob for tanking even though now you can't single-handedly slaughter every enemy in the general area. BotM got better, and with around 9 or 10 healing you can counter the sacrificing pretty well. I'm also looking forward to bringing the golem only as a high-level tank and keeping it alive with verata's and its instant recharge.
Yeah, at first I was skeptical of such a huge change, but I've found I can still enjoy being MM. As for those people who say "OMG they nerfed MM my necro is useless," get out of the damn box and try something else. There's lots that necros are useful for.

um i never said it that it wasnt fun anymore, i just want all the people telling us how to play the game to shut up. we do what we do because its fun, whether challengeing or easy, we dont like to adapt to something for it to remain fun. plus a cap of 10 minions is a bit low with 16 death magic IMO. yeah ill still have to try it out and im sure ill still us a mm, but i dont think it will ever be as fun as before the update.

Bluefeather · May 02, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

It's okay to have a max of 10 Minions (16 Death), having more than 20 Minions is like using a Game Shark in your favorite PSx game - "I rule because I have an infinite supply of ammo!"

I only ask to modify the BotM to 0 Energy, 0 Cast, 5 Recharge so we can keep our 10 Minions alive longer. Other than exhaustion, Necro is the only character that pays twice for using a skill (Sacrifice Life and Energy). We are already punished with -75 health for raising our Death to 16 just to get 10 Minions.

Naomi Bluefeather - Noob Nerfed MM

/signed for revival of MM or at least an improvement from what we have ATM.

Thallandor · May 02, 2006, 12:46 AM // 00:46

At this point currently, i rather Anet remove the new Vamperic minons and the Flesh Golem Elite and give us back our old pre nerf MMs.

Seriously why nerf fun...

Contessa · May 02, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

If you're accustomed to commanding 20+ minions, this was a nerf. If you just liked some minions around and usually didn't go past 10, then I don't think you understand the scope of this nerf (I'm not referring to intellectually understanding, but the pleasure of the build).

Ok. I really wanted a chance to play a bit with this new change before commenting. I have to say that playing my minion master isn't as enjoyable as it use to be. I don't like playing a minion bomber, which seems to be the current set up now.

I'm not using Verata's Sacrifice anymore. This spell was on the borderline of being out because of the recharge time before the change. Before the nerf, BoTM and Verata's Sacrifice were standard skills for a MM. After experimenting this weekend, I found Verata's Sacrifice pretty useless if you want a large army. In an area where corpses are scarce it might be ok, but you'll be battling the natural degen rate of horrors.

I hate being limited to 10 minions, horrors, fiends or whatever. Lowering the cost of Bone Minions to 15 may be good if you're a lower level character and can benefit from soul reaping, but this skill is even more useless if you're a higher level or have maxed out death. I'd only use it if I had 13 in Soul Reaping and 0 in Death to benefit from the energy gain since the cost is only 15 now, but again, that's not a minion master build.

I'm not a one-trick pony either. A minion master was one of my many builds. It's sad to see it go away.

(excerpt from an email to a Canthan MM that I've been helping out. He was asking about spamming BoTM))
The limit of 10 horror became a problem if my group was swamped by enemies and it sounds like you're experiencing the annoyance of trying to keep your minions alive between (and sometimes during) battles. I found myself spamming BoTM to keep my minions alive too. It is a pain. You didn't have to do this before and you can't be in motion while using it (this is a pain since you have to spam it and again it causes delays in travel so your minions will degen faster because of the time element). Forgive me if I'm wrong or if this has been changed, but I believe you can still move while using Heal Area which makes it great for a between battle healing.

I'd bring both heal area and botm if I were you. One of the best minion masters that I ventured with used BoTM, Verata's Sac and Heal Area, but that was about 6 montha ago.

I've been playing a MM for about 9 months now and feel I must comment. My apologies, I didn't have a chance read all the posts in this thread. I also post on gwonline.net, so you may have seen some of this already.

/signed