Curse

Fluffyx · Apr 30, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skarjak

Well you see, the guys at Arena.Net, in their grand wisdom, don't really think it's balanced when a single character is a match for an entire team.

I mean, most characters, even if you don't have the counters for them, can still be defeated. You can't really say that about minion masters. In 12vs12, if there was a minion master on the enemy team and you didn't have a counter to it, you were just plain dead. Now it's one thing when a character can take on more than one enemy and come out alive. It's another when one character is an unstoppable force that can completely decimate enemy teams or mobs alike.

I liked my MM just as much as the next guy, but I can't really say that this nerf was not deserved. Minion masters were more powerful than entire teams, which is extreme. Even in their present state, minion masters are still more powerful than a normal character, so I don't think it's such a bad nerf.

You also have to admid, Verata's sacrifice would have made Canthan minion masters obsolete.

In pvp MM is just as easily countered as any other build. You're not more powerful than an entire team, unless you have a saccer you're going into battle with nothing so you have to rely on your team to kill their team for bodies. In PvE its no more overpowering than a 55monk and a ss/sv nec clearing out portions of the UW. So while we're at it lets just nerf everything that works well and just forget about the point of thinking up an effective build because if you share it, you can just kiss it goodbye. This mentality that anet has is starting to get on my nerves this isnt the first uncalled for nerf they have done and I seriously doubt MM will be the last.

Silent Elvin Ranger · May 01, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Speaking of 55 monks. I think they have there little hearts on nerfing that too. Ur right unless u wanna lose ur build dont share it. Of course, what if every1 thought that way. U would be stuck with 1 build. And it would be a bad 1 because if u dont share it with other ppl, they wont share there opinions and mods to ur build making...basically all builds suck. If no1 came up with builds, Anet couldnt nerf anymore, but more importantly YOU would be stuck with only the build u have made up urself. These builds that are claimed "overpowering" are NOT hard to beat. If MMs are so overpowering that they can steamroll everything to an endoplasmic pulp, then why dont you see MM LFG being spammed in the Ring of Fire missions and why r 55 monks so afraid of enchantment breakers. Because all builds have a weakness. Its all a matter of discovering the weakness and trying to avoid it.Anet shouldn't nerf anything. Just because a build doesnt seem to have a weakness means nerf? well guess what Anet, EVERY BUILD CAN BE EASILY COUNTERED AND BEAT, I GUARUNTEE IT. In fact some1 name a build that seems invincable and ill tell u what a counter would be.

Why not nerf every skill, build and character on GW. Thats what seems to be happening. How about this.

Axe Attack: Do +1 damage (axe mastery)
Sword Attack: Do +1 damage (sword mastery)
Hammer Attack: Do +1 damage (hammer mastery)
Bow Attack: Do +1 damage (marksmanship)
Elemental attack: Do +1 damage (elemental)
ETC.

How's that for ya Anet. You want this great game reduced to that! If u wanna continue to nerf our new builds that are tough, just make skills like that!

Builds should not be nerfed just because people have done their homework on actually reading skills and putting them together so that they help each other out in a way so that they do great damage.

This is not just about the MM nerf anymore, this is about previous nerfs and furtue nerfs. They must be stopped.

P.S :: Hey Anet just cause ur in the mood for changing the game and the way we play, CHANGE THE AI ON OUR PETS, MINIONS AND HENCHAMN!! (lol especially Alesia, ROTFL!)

Elvin

Minus Sign · May 01, 2006, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffyx

In pvp MM is just as easily countered as any other build

More so in most cases. Minions, our main if not only source of damage, have a nasty tendency to stand around in AoEs, target lock onto characters they can't reach and in general stand around hugging a wall like total idiots. Any PvP is no place for a minion spam build.

And if you want to talk counter: any counter skill will tear a MM to shreads if you focus on it with some alacrity. From easy Concussion shots due to our spamming 3 second cast skills, Diversion shutting us down for the duration, KD setting us on our butts...the list goes on. Basically, if you bring the weakest counter-skill you can think of, its going to wreak havoc with an MM. Add to counter, Assassin was built to counter obsticles, territory and player created. We've no where to run anymore, and far less ability to "hide".

If no one in your 3 teams brings counter skills? Well...lets just assume otherwise...please!

I stand by my original beliefs: Anet nerfed MM--not for any type of skill balance issues--because they wanted everyone who wants to MM to go Vamp Horror MM, showcasing this new skill in Factions by force-feeding it down our throats. It's like someone from Ford coming to my house and busting up my T-Bird in hopes that I'll buy a new one.

EDIT: to the "don't share your build ideas=poorer play" issue? We're already there. Guilds are kicking members for discussing builds and strategies; players--mostly runners atm--are ordering people not to die in game or risk losing a member. I already don't discuss my farming strategies anymore for fear my UW soler will be leaked and nerfed. More and more, people are going to become secretive with their builds with their guild and their friends until nerf fear reaches a point that it becomes a game killer.

golem bigstick · May 01, 2006, 05:06 AM // 05:06

to all these haters telling us to "adapt or dont play" listen, its not about that, it was never about anything like that, its always been and will always be about the fun factor. PVEers dont care if a skill is overpowered or about cookie-cutter builds as long as we are haveing fun. the AOE nerf made it so an ele wasnt as fun, sure it opened up other choices for many people, but no one cares. this nerf for MMs is the same thing, we dont care if it was overpowering for PVE, why? cause it was fun and EVERYONE could do it with practice. now will all you haters please shut the hell up? this is a game and games are meant to be fun.

oh and to the OP
/agreed
Golem Bigstick

Wicked Shadow · May 01, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

So...you're saying being MM now isn't fun? I see lots of potential in being one. I had a blast in doing the first Canthan mission with my Tyrian necro by being a MM. Sure, 10's the highest you can go now, but that's still a pretty good sized mob for tanking even though now you can't single-handedly slaughter every enemy in the general area. BotM got better, and with around 9 or 10 healing you can counter the sacrificing pretty well. I'm also looking forward to bringing the golem only as a high-level tank and keeping it alive with verata's and its instant recharge.
Yeah, at first I was skeptical of such a huge change, but I've found I can still enjoy being MM. As for those people who say "OMG they nerfed MM my necro is useless," get out of the damn box and try something else. There's lots that necros are useful for.

UndeadRoadkill · May 01, 2006, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minus Sign

I love how people keep using VHorros as the prime example of why the entire line-up of minions needed to be changed.

Especially considering that it's a factions skill, and the nerf affects characters who don't even have access to it...

Rajamic · May 01, 2006, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Njall

Hmm.. I can't kill a monk if I don't bring interrupt... should I ask A.net for a nerf of healing ?

The difference is that effective counters for Minion masters were rather useless against anything but Minion Masters. Interrupts are good against everyone, but how many different builds are Verata's Gaze or Firestorm good against?

If you are being a Minion Master in PvP and don't already have a good size army by the time the gate drops, you shouldn't be there. At that point, you can just steamroll your enemy before they can even get a shot off on you. I've been on the recieveing end of a Minion Factory team in GvG. We got wiped twice before we could even figure out which Necro was the Master (and thus, who we needed to target).

aigleborgne · May 01, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35

When some build are overpowered in a solo game, I don't care. I don't play them. That's all.
In GW, you often play with a team. And when you have fun with your big army, do you really think other people in team have fun too? I bet they don't, because they feel useless...

That's why I hate MM, they get fun with their huge army, killing everything in their sight. They don't even care of their group. Do they have fun? I don't care, I do!
Of course, I exagerate. But it's exactly what I feel when I team with a MM.

I have the choice to team or not with a MM. But I don't want them to exclude them of any team because of their power. Nerf is better.

About PvP, I don't know, because I don't really play PvP at that time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by golem bigstick

to all these haters telling us to "adapt or dont play" listen, its not about that, it was never about anything like that, its always been and will always be about the fun factor. PVEers dont care if a skill is overpowered or about cookie-cutter builds as long as we are haveing fun. the AOE nerf made it so an ele wasnt as fun, sure it opened up other choices for many people, but no one cares. this nerf for MMs is the same thing, we dont care if it was overpowering for PVE, why? cause it was fun and EVERYONE could do it with practice. now will all you haters please shut the hell up? this is a game and games are meant to be fun.

oh and to the OP
/agreed
Golem Bigstick

Njall · May 01, 2006, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

The difference is that effective counters for Minion masters were rather useless against anything but Minion Masters. Interrupts are good against everyone, but how many different builds are Verata's Gaze or Firestorm good against?

You don't have to take Verata's spells to counter a MM.. take EoE, it will be very nice. (and are you sure you can't take ONE spell in the case there is a MM against you ?).

Btw, one funny thing. With the nerf, if you try to animate a 11th minion, the 1st (or the 10th I don't know) is killed just after... if EoE is up, the MM is going to suicide itself easily

(sorry for my English, not sure of the last sentence).

Quote:

I have the choice to team or not with a MM. But I don't want them to exclude them of any team because of their power. Nerf is better.

A pity I did'nt know that when I couldn't go to Deldrimor without seeing dozens of person seeking MM to farm green items.. it certainly would have been better and funnier for them to go farm without minions.

Avatar of Melandru · May 01, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

MM used to be the most fun build to play in this game, but I have to admit they were overpowered. On a good day, I could maintain maybe 25 or 30, but the 80 mentioned by the OP...wow. Nothing's gonna last long against that. However, anet have gone too far imo. 10 minions? How can you call yourself a master if you can only control 10 at a time?

Sure, a limit is necessary to prevent necros steamrollering over anything in the game. But maybe something like 2 initially, then 1 per level of death magic, giving a grand total of 18 - still nerfed, still below the capabilities of any good MM, but workable.

Heh, parties I've seen at Vizunah and Dragon's Throat are still looking for MMs. Guess 10 fiends still do enough damage to be useful.

But given the chance.../signed. I want my army back!

FredDie · May 01, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Well I was playing MM for a long long time. And I can say that the nerf wasn't so bad at all. You know if you want to solo-farm with MM, now it's impossible. But if you want to play some missions, that's enough. 9-10 minions is a average number for me. They can do a lot of damage [especially Fiends with MoP casted on attacked foe].

BTW; Correct me if I'm wrong. In every Canthan Mission I'm always seeing that ppl need MM. So as you see that nerf doesn't changed the valuability of MM.

shoot n loot · May 01, 2006, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Heres my conclusion to this after not only reading every previous, but also having pve/pvp experience on 7 lvl 20s pve, and MM was not, by far, the hardest to murder.

1~ try a smite monk, one cast of Shield of Judgemen + balth aurora= there goes army... hey watdya know A Net gimped these too, whole reason i made my damned MM

2~ As earlier menntioned , a R/mo using Barrage and Strenth of Honor or watever, i have a 20 barrage ranger, and basically you can counter anything on a ranger, easily, so mayb invite more rangers since we hardly ever get groups anyways. Or even a freking ranger using interrupts

3~Fire Ele (wow watdya know, gimped) need i even explain?

4~ Veratas aurora (oh whups there goes all the minions)

5~ Eoe, (there they go again)

6~ Kill the MM (its not hard to kill a damned necro, specially not one whose busy focusing on raising a minion army.. and come on plz, like you wouldnt notice which necro was spamming Bone Fiend/Horror/VHorror ect.?

So far as conclusion goes, ummm wtf were you thinking A Net, im sorry but there was no defined reason to Nerf MM so seriously, id go for a compromize, but ive had my necro since games release, and it hurts me that you killed him so.. IM now reduced to boring and yet more profitable forms of necro farming.. 55 necro + SS/SV necro... o wait im thinking a SS nerf is coming, and a 55 one, your killing any build that takes skill, and i completely agree with the earleir post that, if you so wish to do this why not just make 4 skills, Axe Attack +1 dmg, Sword Attack +1, Elemental attack +1, Life steal (steals 1/2 a health point), sounds like fun doesnt it, so we can all just blandly hack and slash eachother to death. If you were looking for balance, look at freking Mesmers (of which i also have one) who are so OPed pvp wise (speically in random arenas and the like) its not even funny.. O whoops what was that, you cant cast anythign cas i interrupt it all and deal dmg,... o backfire -147 dmg.. sorry im venting anger... i wont claim to ever bein one of the best MMs out there, i usually capped around mid 40s of minions. Mayb you should make a compromise instead of completely anihilating a build, and yes ive been playing MM in cantha but its just not the same... the rush isnt there any more, im actually prolly gonna delete my MM and go make another assassin or rit, atleast you havnt gimped those A~Net. I realy dont appreciate this, and for all those complainers up there, scroll up, is it that hard to run 1/ mroe then 6 counters? i mean come on, Eles are used in Pvp all the time, there goes your MM, so are rangers. If you want to continue nerfing classes, heres an idea, make monks heal for 30s, take ranger damage back down, give mesmers only 1 interrupt, and make warriros have 200 health. Ooh what a fun game, im sorry if i exagerate, but i feel very strongly on this, and to tell you the truth the MM was perhaps the only fun i had on GW ne more pve wise, now i can have fun running a 55 (boring) or a SS/SV (boring, but does almost as much as a full fledged 40 minion MM if you echo it). Whats said, is more ofthen then any other character now im resorting to playing a MESMER for pve, cas my mesmer looks cool, and well since you ruining the effectiveness of everything, why nto make them look lame while your at it.

PS: Signed and whatever else you want, this fix is Bull

JimmyDean · May 01, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

I'm sorry, but you guys are being very stubborn and nearsighted in regard to this "nerf." For PVE, this was a nerf, and i feel that it was warranted. A good MM could easily solo just about any mob in the game once he got his army rolling. It was too powerful, and could have adverse effects in the long run. As for MM in pvp, youre stronger than ever! Instead of a few crappy level 18 and 19 fiends, now you get flesh golem and vampiric horror. You guys are completely overlooking what you have gained. Its not like youre going to have a huge army in pvp to begin with, so youre much better off with these stronger minions. If you all quit crying for a few moments and try out what youve got now, youll realize youre much better off.

Njall · May 01, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

I will break some things if I ever heard "this is not a nerf, you have Vhorror" one more time !

Idea : limit us to 10 pets and give us "pet attacks" (you know some thing like "Lacerating bones" : the next attack of your minions make the victim bleed... this kind of things )

Pick Me · May 01, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Well, I wish I can say "I feel your pain," but I can't. The reason for this is because I never spent countless hours honing my MM skills to utilise the fine arts of MMing like some of you have. However, I do sympathize with all of you.

Should the nerfing of the raising of ordinary minions (fiends/horrors/minions) be the end of the MM?

It would be if you don't have factions. With Factions, you can have different types of summonables, like the vampiric minions and the fleshy golem. These new sets have given a MM some interesting ways to make others suffer. This also makes skills like VS and BotM more viable without the need of a well or a healing spell. Regenerate you minions and they intern will steal life for you.

The nerfing was also for the Ritualist, as the more points into their core skill, the healthier their spirits and summonables (undead minions) become. So you may see more Rit/N forms of MMs than true N/? MMs, but a balance must be made somehow.

Two vampiric fiends + 1 blood golem + VS = continuous VS and summonables for a MM.

Also, think of it this way. A new challenge has been brought upon the Necromancer. New powers and new restrictions, are you up to the challenge of making the ultimate MM?

JimmyDean · May 01, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

For those MMs that dont have factions yet (myself included), the nerf is strictly PVE, where i still feel it was warranted. We havent really changed that much in pvp. Factions gives MM teeth for pvp, where i feel they are otherwise not very viable.

Karmaniac · May 01, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

You see, the majority of people who play MMORPGs are in many ways similar to children. They are ungrateful brats with poor grammar who can only think about themselves. Because they are always right (and thus you cannot be reasoned with) they are completely happy to defend their standing with incomprehensible moonlogic (As seen in the find-a-way-around-the-problem-to-make-it-not-seem-like-a-problem approach instead of admitting the fix was needed). As a defensive mechanism they incessantly act as martyrs who are wronged by the uncaring higher powers to try and make other people side with them out of sympathy.

Most of them are 12 too.

/not signed gg and have a nice life.

murphyj · May 01, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

I deleted my Necro after the nerf. There was simply no reason to have him clogging up character slots anymore.

JimmyDean · May 01, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmaniac

You see, the majority of people who play MMORPGs are in many ways similar to children. They are ungrateful brats with poor grammar who can only think about themselves. Because they are always right (and thus you cannot be reasoned with) they are completely happy to defend their standing with incomprehensible moonlogic (As seen in the find-a-way-around-the-problem-to-make-it-not-seem-like-a-problem approach instead of admitting the fix was needed). As a defensive mechanism they incessantly act as martyrs who are wronged by the uncaring higher powers to try and make other people side with them out of sympathy.

Most of them are 12 too.

/not signed gg and have a nice life.

ownage.

kdhoney44 · May 01, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

<---Here I sit all broken hearted

Well I was nuker when the Aoe fix came out....
I was a MM when the MM fix came out.....

Time to find something else to do

Ritulalist here I come!!

I sympathize with you guys about the cap on minions...I will miss my favorite build too. Wouldn't have minded if the cap were closer to 15-20. I guess it's time for me and my necro to move on to another cool build that will most likely one day become overpowered.

Cheers guys..have fun