Curse

mushi · Apr 30, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Well, i'd hate to say it. Now you know how "us" echo nukers felt with the aoe nurf. When they killed half the elementalist population.

And yes, i used to play minion master a bit >.>

yarddog · Apr 30, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35

i miss my army, please fix it.

/signed * a very unhappy MM*

Skarjak · Apr 30, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Well you see, the guys at Arena.Net, in their grand wisdom, don't really think it's balanced when a single character is a match for an entire team.

I mean, most characters, even if you don't have the counters for them, can still be defeated. You can't really say that about minion masters. In 12vs12, if there was a minion master on the enemy team and you didn't have a counter to it, you were just plain dead. Now it's one thing when a character can take on more than one enemy and come out alive. It's another when one character is an unstoppable force that can completely decimate enemy teams or mobs alike.

I liked my MM just as much as the next guy, but I can't really say that this nerf was not deserved. Minion masters were more powerful than entire teams, which is extreme. Even in their present state, minion masters are still more powerful than a normal character, so I don't think it's such a bad nerf.

You also have to admid, Verata's sacrifice would have made Canthan minion masters obsolete.

Njall · Apr 30, 2006, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

if there was a minion master on the enemy team and you didn't have a counter to it, you were just plain dead.

Hmm.. I can't kill a monk if I don't bring interrupt... should I ask A.net for a nerf of healing ?

Enadiketus · Apr 30, 2006, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Being a MM was the most fun I could have in this game - I think what they've done is a terrible mistake.

/signed

shadowfell · Apr 30, 2006, 04:08 PM // 16:08

/signed

I'm no longer looking forward to adding new minion master skills to my current catalogue. I don't even know if I will cap golem at this stage. Even I, as a casual mm, was easily able to maintain 20-40 minions and yeah, it is a lot of fun. Yes, they chew down mobs, but mobs chew on them as well. As for, a mm being a match for an entire team, that statement is a bit out there. I mean, if you really think that, then apparently you never encountered a minion factory in arenas or pvp. Simple, traps. Or maybe, instead of wasting time hacking away on the minion, you kill the master.

Regardless, I think the nerf is uncalled for, good going for yet another screw up.

calamitykell · Apr 30, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

This change was required. You get new types of minions to play with. 1 Flesh Golem and 39 Bone Fiends = Overpowered.

Of course, you like overpowered. It makes the game easy. Too bad.

TheOneMephisto · Apr 30, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

This change was required. You get new types of minions to play with. 1 Flesh Golem and 39 Bone Fiends = Overpowered.

Of course, you like overpowered. It makes the game easy. Too bad.

Verata's aura, oo now the enemy has 39 bone fiends...
Barrage+judge's insight, oo now you're taking them down by the dozens
Smiting, oo now you're killing them off
AOE on the fiends, oo look at them burn
Kill the MM+run away, oo now there are 40 mad minions killing their team
etc.

Jeslica666 · Apr 30, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

My favorite character had become my MM. I had put so much time, effort, and gold into her. I wasn't up to the 60-80 minions, but I was up to 40's. I loved my little minions, my children of the game. I have been so withheld now with what Anet has done.. my children die faster, and I can't have as many of them as before. Verata's is the main life stream of the minions, and it is now virtually useless with the extensive recharge time. 60 seconds of recharge with only 10 seconds at max now, that's just a tad over the edge in my opinion. My MM was the main character in missions, farming, team events in my Guild. The MM kept the party alive in massive mobs of enemies. Now, I am almost useless in the guild now that she is crippled. I do have a bonder, and she is sometimes brought in, but I'm mostly just a hang on now. My MM was me, she was what I am in the game. She ranks to me even higher than the new characters brought in by factions. This nerf has really upset the way I play and the way my guild worked, the way I worked.

People jsut don't understand what being a True MM is about.. we can be very ruthless, but there are many tactics out there to bring down a huge army. This nerf was completely uncalled for. I was looking forward to the golem elite, but now.. if I can't keep him alive and many other minions to help him out, there's no use. I guess my new little baby will never be..

calamitykell · Apr 30, 2006, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Verata's aura, oo now the enemy has 39 bone fiends...
Barrage+judge's insight, oo now you're taking them down by the dozens
Smiting, oo now you're killing them off
AOE on the fiends, oo look at them burn
Kill the MM+run away, oo now there are 40 mad minions killing their team
etc.

PvE, genius. I'm glad you're aware of the situation as a whole.

Tarun · Apr 30, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by yarddog

i miss my army, please fix it.

/signed * a very unhappy MM*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enadiketus

Being a MM was the most fun I could have in this game - I think what they've done is a terrible mistake.

/signed

Both well said and I agree.

/signed to bring MM's back to what they really are.

Rogier · Apr 30, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

/signed and agreed

MM's are a bit overpowerd, agreed with Anet, but 10 minnions max??? then what is the point buying a diffrent scalp + sup rune?
then MM doesn't even do a significant job... so why nerf it Anet?

Njall · Apr 30, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

This change was required. You get new types of minions to play with. 1 Flesh Golem and 39 Bone Fiends = Overpowered.

Ok.. take the Flesh golem and Vampiric horrors and give me my horrors/fiends army

More seriously: overpowered the MM ? Sure, I can't disagree (except in Kryta vs undeads, in fire islands, in the desert vs Forgotten and in Shiverpeaks vs Golems).
But... there is a world between being overpowered and being useless. I just finished the Vizunah Square mish... I was glad to had 16 in Death, at least my well of suffering was useful.

Silent Elvin Ranger · Apr 30, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

/Signed and Agreed in full

Seriously, all of death magic basically revolved around minions. I mean nerfing minions is like nerfing the whole DEATH magic attribute. If you thought we were overpowering? Well u may be right but it took us time, effort and money to get it like this. Also add in the fact that u cant make minions everywhere in the game. If you thought MM was so overpowering why don't you see any solo MM builds? And if you think there so powerful why dont YOU test them and see how hard it is to raise and maintain and control a huge army!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mushi

Well, i'd hate to say it. Now you know how "us" echo nukers felt with the aoe nurf. When they killed half the elementalist population.

And yes, i used to play minion master a bit >.>

I know what u feel. AoE nerf didn't just affect nukers and echo nukers alike, but it completely screw up trapping. You cant farm that well with traps anymore. They run away from them making trapping in PvE...pointless. Sure u may argue they only run from dust and flame trap, but dust trap is a great move to keep trappers alive. We depend on the enemy getting blind so they cant hit us. This may be countered by using the crippling traps, but they still get out of traps range. Then we are useless till our traps recharge...where in fact the same thing will happen. It has screwed up Nukers and Trappers alike.

Now with the MM nerf, its just as bad as the AoE nerf. AoE might make them run...but they stop attacking (good thing) and u can still use it. With the MM nerf, i dont think we will see MMs the same way again. MMs cant just continue and ignore this nerf as some nukers do. This is completely....completely....UNCALLED FOR!

/SIGNED *Silent Elvin Ranger*

P.S: Dammit Anet look what u've done!

calamitykell · Apr 30, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Sure. Let's make mobs stand in AoE's. Let's make them continually cast through Backfire.

Seriously... let's just give everyone an "I Win" skill, and keep making it easier, just so you people stop crying.

Get over it, ffs. If you can't adapt, you can't play.

Njall · Apr 30, 2006, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Sure. Let's make mobs stand in AoE's. Let's make them continually cast through Backfire.

Seriously... let's just give everyone an "I Win" skill, and keep making it easier, just so you people stop crying.

Get over it, ffs. If you can't adapt, you can't play.

I would love to see mobs using Verata's Aura against a MM rather than this nerf. (the titan boss during "Defend Denravi" uses it but I think it's the only one).

(for now I don't care any more.. I'm playing Curses/beastmaster and I'm rather happy to see that it's nearly as powerful as my former MM).

Angel Develin · Apr 30, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I'm also a MM and know that it was fun and still is fun to be a MM, its true that the update sucks, But I think is for the best, we can try other ways to keep our minions alive and have fun and the rest of the group can do a bit of the hard work them self, a big minion army is cool and fun but the minions do all the job and the rest does not even have to think what or how to attack. small minion army is to make sure that we dont get a tomb/UW effect.
And some missions now would be realy easy with a lot of minions, I have played as MM in the new area's and its still fun, yes its harder but still fun.

I think there is a site for the enemy's in GW and they were all asking for MM nerf and that they were overpowerd

.

Silent Elvin Ranger · Apr 30, 2006, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Well nerfs don't just screw things up. They are usually the things thatinfluence new builds. Maybe we will see easier builds that keep minions alive longer. With new skills coming im sure it will be easy to make a new, maybe better build to help out the MMs on GW.

Rayne Nightfyre · Apr 30, 2006, 10:42 PM // 22:42

I agree that it is unfortunate that the MM play-style we were all used to is gone. Honestly, I miss it. But with the addition of the Ritualist, which can aid minions in certain respects, there was bound to be some exploit using the massive numbers of minions combined with certain Rt skills. ArenaNet makes sure all play-styles are balanced, and evidently MM's needed a balancing. As I said with the AoE panic change, it offers the chance to explore other possibilities. So now it allows us to focus on the quality of each minion, instead of the strength in numbers concept (Quality > Quantity). It's a tough one to swallow, but it is for the best.

Minus Sign · Apr 30, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by mushi

Well, i'd hate to say it. Now you know how "us" echo nukers felt with the aoe nurf. When they killed half the elementalist population.

And yes, i used to play minion master a bit >.>

And look what happened to the ele class...I don't have any problem saying it: Most necros i know are former nukes.

Anet is going to balance themselves right out of a customer base at this rate.

Yeah, the AoE nerf and the reaction of people to it is a prime example of why this type of mass nerf on a skill line should NEVER HAPPEN TO A GAME.

I love how people keep using VHorros as the prime example of why the entire line-up of minions needed to be changed. One skill comes out, and thats the reason why every other skill open to an MM needs to be cut off. Come on, if one skill is going to be overpowered, you don't nerf four others. You nerf that one skill! Although, with the balance, the only useful MM in uperleves now is the VH MM...hmm.

There were many easy ways to control MM power, chief among them being the VS nerf that was part of the skill balance and the BoTM changes (just increase damage recieved per use and over casting BoTM with large minion groups could kill you outright). That alone will lower MM uptime. An across the board nerf of the number of minions a person can use? thats past overkill and makes one question the motives of Anet's actions.

EDIT: alright, I'll buy the concept that a "new" build may be out there that will help keep minions up longer and more powerful. But if that is the design of Anet, then the AI of minions should have been improved to compensate for their lower numbers. If they want to make it about quality over quantity, we should have gotten more assist in that department. Higher level minions with the brains to avoid AoE, etc.