Curse

shardfenix · Jul 23, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Kitty

Touchers are strong against unsuspecting newbies, but as soon as they play balanced, they suddenly completely drop out of the picture. I have never seen a team, with at least two touchers, win in the top 10 battles. They go up fast in gvg, but drop even faster

Because every balanced team they play against has A MESMER ZOMFG.

Touch rangers are broken. Here's why:
1: There is no reasonable counter. The only way to counter a touch ranger is either a slowdown hex, or crippling shot. That's it.
2: The combo (in this case expertise + touch skills) makes the touch ranger skills better than monk skills (orison yourself + unpreventable damage for 6 energy)
3: Ranger defensive skills don't work as intended (you can dodge through touching because it is not an attack)
4: The damage is unstoppable. (touch skills go through spell defenses, and it's not actual damage, so prot skills and armor don't lower it.)

Pros to a touch ranger

Damage is unstoppable. It goes through spell defenses, and it is direct life steal, meaning it can't be protted against, and armor doesn't affect it.
They have great energy management, and can keep up their build for a very long time.
They have a constant +20 health regen if the target is moving (+30 regen if the target is standing still)
They have a constant speed boost of 33%.

Cons to a touch ranger.

They only work in melee range.

If you still think touch rangers are fine, please explain why. I don't understand why you would think they're not broken. Oh, and one last thing. I don't want the opinions of touch rangers because they're obviously biased.
The worst excuse for defending something is "because i abuse it."

tear · Jul 23, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

There is no reasonable counter. The only way to counter a touch ranger is either a slowdown hex, or crippling shot. That's it.

assassins

Rok · Jul 23, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by tear

assassins

Assassins get owned by a Touch Ranger 1 on 1

Whirling Defense, Throw Dirt, Plague Touch. I've seen more Assassins running from Touchers than the other way around.

tear · Jul 23, 2006, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Only time I've ever lost to a touchie as an assassin has been when it wasn't 1v1. Way of the fox, shadow stepping, and a dagger chain drops them almost immediately. This is why I didn't even know what touch rangers were weeks into killing them all the time.

Caleb · Jul 23, 2006, 10:32 AM // 10:32

There are dozens of reasonable counters... all listed in this very thread. I'm not going to repeat them all for you, read the first 15 pages.

Not broken, easily countered, and highly overrated.

Amity and Truth · Jul 23, 2006, 12:17 PM // 12:17

The only thing being overpowered about a Touch ranger is the amount of flaming you will recieve if you're playing one. Go on a 10 win streak and you'll have had ~40 people flaming and bitching around about the build. I wonder why so many people think they know my mother and know my level of skill as well.

On a funny sidenote:
Was playing mesmer and the monk xyz (name replaced) told me i was awesome. We did our 10 wins and parted.
Next day, i was playing a toucher and came up agains the same monk. And all of a sudden i was a skillless noob and should die.

Go figure :P

The Toucher is simply not overpowered. It's the AWM of Counter-Strike, It's the Sniper Rifle in UT, it's the Railgun in Quake, it's the Fade in Natural Selection, it's the blade spirit in UO...
Each game has one weapon that many people consider as noob or too overpowered while in reality, those are perfectly balanced. Someone whining about touchers, is probably the same person whining about one of the above examples

swiftygem · Jul 23, 2006, 01:35 PM // 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by ischuros

Personally i bring along Wail of Despair(You can get it off the second last mission from the necro boss) to counter TRs. Its really useful to battle all caster classes, casting it on a Mesmer will bring him down instantly.

Huh? You mean Wail of Doom?
Sacrifice 10% Health, and target foe is interrupted. If target foe was attacking, all of that foe's attack skills are disabled for 5...17 seconds.
How does that help against touch skills, let alone mesmer spells?

zakaria · Jul 23, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

The Toucher is simply not overpowered. It's the AWM of Counter-Strike, It's the Sniper Rifle in UT, it's the Railgun in Quake, it's the Fade in Natural Selection, it's the blade spirit in UO...
Each game has one weapon that many people consider as noob or too overpowered while in reality, those are perfectly balanced. Someone whining about touchers, is probably the same person whining about one of the above examples

Bad comparison m8

..these weapons need skills..they are overpowered but only if you give it to the skilled player...you were should compare it with someone keep firing rocket launcher hoping he hit something with it

sniper rifle FTW

HEAD SHOT..

some guy · Jul 23, 2006, 01:48 PM // 13:48

it isn't that hard to kill a touchy,

just put a speed degen, and spam massive health de gens, the next moment they are dead.

again they are deadly against unsuspecting noobies, but when they figured out their game, any 1 can take down a touchy.

i did it with my wame, w/me in random arena.

hamstring
conjure phantasm
run and repeat

Raxxman · Jul 23, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

that's all well and good, but Hamstring needs to hit 75% miss chance with dodge, And if the touchy is carrying Life syphon/transfer your phantasm isn't going to deal that much damage.

unholy guardian · Jul 23, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

yeah more and more touchies are thinking outside the box.. sortof, life siphon strip enchant, random stuff

assassins... i have played an assassin, and if you don't kill them before they do up any stance you are so screwed, pleague touch and throw dirt... ouch

Rok · Jul 23, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raxxman

that's all well and good, but Hamstring needs to hit 75% miss chance with dodge, And if the touchy is carrying Life syphon/transfer your phantasm isn't going to deal that much damage.

Actually Dodge is only good against arrow attacks (11 secs of 78% chance with 16 expertise) .

However they do have to deal with 21 secs worth of Whirling Defense (75% chance to block any attack) as well as 16 secs worth of Throw Dirt (unless you or someone nearby has condition removal).

As well, if you manage to get hamstring through you better run before they transfer it back to you with Plague Touch.

Curse You · Jul 24, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

The only thing being overpowered about a Touch ranger is the amount of flaming you will recieve if you're playing one. Go on a 10 win streak and you'll have had ~40 people flaming and bitching around about the build. I wonder why so many people think they know my mother and know my level of skill as well.

On a funny sidenote:
Was playing mesmer and the monk xyz (name replaced) told me i was awesome. We did our 10 wins and parted.
Next day, i was playing a toucher and came up agains the same monk. And all of a sudden i was a skillless noob and should die.

Go figure :P

The Toucher is simply not overpowered. It's the AWM of Counter-Strike, It's the Sniper Rifle in UT, it's the Railgun in Quake, it's the Fade in Natural Selection, it's the blade spirit in UO...
Each game has one weapon that many people consider as noob or too overpowered while in reality, those are perfectly balanced. Someone whining about touchers, is probably the same person whining about one of the above examples

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

(...snip) Oh, and one last thing. I don't want the opinions of touch rangers because they're obviously biased.
The worst excuse for defending something is "because i abuse it." (snip)

Hmm I see some logic, just not sure where.

Nvwa Strider · Jul 24, 2006, 12:44 AM // 00:44

i play only with my ranger in ab and i probably used the touch ranger the most.

I dont use the normal build because i couldnt be arsed capturing blood offering skill and ab maps offers so much space that you can easily regain energy with running (esp storm chaser) to the other shrine. Instead of that i use grenths, but even more life transfer now.

But what i think about the touch ranger in the battlefield, not even biased:

warriors and assasins just dont have a change against them, they need to go melee and all the conditions they give me is countered with plague touch. If they used ranged with secondary, they will never outdamage the healing from life transfer or troll and will even die from life transfer eventually. wammos can heal them self enough so they stay alive against rangers without blood of offering or rangers that dont carry interrupts.
healing casters will hold out but die if interrupted
eles and mesmers win against normal touchies, but if touchies use things like cripple debilitate and life transfer they still give a hard time.
necros win if the touchy dont use degen skills themselves.

touchies arent better when in team, the enemy team will aim for them and kill them easily. Teams totally own touchies, just one enemy that cripples and outdamage him. I got killed in 2 seconds against mesmer, 2 eles and necro.
They better when solo and capture shrines and occasionaly take on 1 or 2 foes.

Touch rangers are only overpowered against the 2 other melee proffesions. Makes the other 2 profs useless since the dmg is allways close to a critical strike and the ranger can tank a lot with stances

Curse You · Jul 24, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

*leaves a 2 hour streak of RA PvP after 10 consecutive wins*
Me: Well that was interesting, wonder what the future will hold for PvP.
*goes to fortune teller*
Fortune teller: I see the touch rangers... I see them being a nusance... oh the touch ranger, THEY ARE GOING TO KILL YOU!

Sorry just had to do that.

Anyhow, I found out (the hard way) that 2 boon prots + 1 touch ranger = completely annoying. I understand that touch rangers on their own aren't that hard, but if they have monk support, they can be near impossible to kill.
This just leaves me to say that most builds you can kill on their own, very easily. However the touch rangers are almost always a bit of a challenge. So, unlike with most other builds, when a touch ranger gets monk support, they become highly invunerable.

Yes certain skills can be used against them, but do you want to only see Monks, Mesmers, Rangers, and Touch Rangers from now on? This game is about variety, and these guys are just completely ruining that.

Sol Deathgard · Jul 24, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

1: There is no reasonable counter. The only way to counter a touch ranger is either a slowdown hex, or crippling shot. That's it.

Wrong, I run a Health & energy degen mesmer, & bring Rigor Mortis just for touch rangers, the vamp skills can't keep them up when they have -10 health degen, -4 energy degen & can't block or evade attacks, they go down very quickly.

Amity and Truth · Jul 24, 2006, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Hmm I see some logic, just not sure where.

So? I've played it once and now i'm tainted, have to shut up forever and i'm not allowed to have an opinion on this topic? You know that this kind of behavior totally voids your arguments, don't you?

Know your enemy, for a moment think like your enemy and you'll see his or her weaknesses more clear. Instead of just screaming "bloody hell we need a nerf!!!!".

Yes, the Touch Ranger is the Noob Basher Number 1 currently. Smashes noobs (and i'm especially using this version of the word for a reason) and owns those Players that don't see why they should simply get their back moving. All i can see in this thread is a lot of whining about something that is actually UNDERPOWERED. Seriously folks, play it once. Just play it one fricking time and i promise you right here, your opinion will either change or your skull is too thick to accept the change.

You should play it even if you've vowed death through "flames" to everyone playing one. After you've seen it's weaknesses you'll also be a lot better to react. Know your enemy. I thought that was common sense.

@zakaria
Nah, i was using the sniper rifles as an example simply because of the amount of hate you get if you kill someone with it. It's funny as hell how some folks get all worked up just because their virtual character died because they were too stupid to play accordingly

Curse You · Jul 24, 2006, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

So? I've played it once and now i'm tainted, have to shut up forever and i'm not allowed to have an opinion on this topic? You know that this kind of behavior totally voids your arguments, don't you?

Know your enemy, for a moment think like your enemy and you'll see his or her weaknesses more clear. Instead of just screaming "bloody hell we need a nerf!!!!".

First part. You don't seem to have "only" played as a touch ranger just once. From your reaction you seem to play it quite often

Know thine enemy eh? Well maybe you should read some of my past posts on this very thread. I have killed touch rangers easily, I know they aren't invincible. But they are creating a pool of builds that HAVE to have a counter to them.
This means that ONE build is changing ALL other players skill-sets. I understand change is good, but this seems a little ridiculous, espesially considering that only about 10 skills work well as counters. Soon PvP will basically be "have these skills or die" if builds like this apear more.

Edge Martinez · Jul 24, 2006, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Just let this thread end. Everything that can be said, has been said. Personally, I'm enjoying what I consider the last few days of being a touch ranger, because with enough whining, Anet will probably cave.

Until ye olde mushroom cloud of nerf appears, however, I'd just like to point out that all the tough talk about 4 touchers not being hard to kill in ABs is really amusing. Every profession, every team, even every person who was set up to deal with 4 of us just got utterly mowed through. We were worried... oh noes, all the big talk on guru... they figured us out! Maybe ya'll badasses took the day off

Anyhow, until the nerf, 4 touchers a day keeps the Luxons away.

Amity and Truth · Jul 24, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

First part. You don't seem to have "only" played as a touch ranger just once. From your reaction you seem to play it quite often

Well, well mister know it all. No need to discuss anything then as you've eaten undeniable wisdom with a spoon, eh? If you can't keep the discussion free from trying to personally insult me or totally ignore my arguments by simply stating "you're a touch ranger". *shrugs* That's your personal fault and doesn't help your cause at all.

Quote:

But they are creating a pool of builds that HAVE to have a counter to them.

That is simply nonsense. It really, absolutely is. I'm not seeing more Degen characters than before. It's still the same amount, how have they even slightly changed their builds? Mesmers are still doing their same thing and in all honesty, if they didn't bring Diversion if their build allready allowed it... doesn't need any further comment.

You're not seriously trying to defend your scream for nerf based upon the fact that people should or do bring:

Snares (like they allways should have)
Degen (like they allways have done)

And that they have to:
Kite (like they allways should have)

And that they're lacking:
Battlefield Awareness (like they should never have missed on that one)

People don't need to change their builds because of the touch rangers. They need to change it because they should have done so before. And i'm not even speaking about Teambuilds here. Any team can beat touch rangers.