Curse

Paperfly · Jul 08, 2006, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Touching is mildly overpowered on the Luxon* side of Fort Aspenwood (does anyone else get the sense I spend too much time there?

), simply because of the DPS on static NPC targets plus the fact that they bypass all the NPCs' otherwise considerable defenses - Prot Spirit, Ward Against Melee, Unsteady Ground and Silver Armour, f'rinstance - entirely and unfairly. That's not really enough to call for a nerf, though.

The problem is that anti-touch-ranger hate is too specific for most forms of play - see my examples above re general counters that don't work, and throw in evasive stances and armour buffs as well. Taking counters to even such common threats as hexes and enchantments is marginal enough** that they reasonably only take up slots in the skillbars of one out of every three characters.

Relative to that, if even one out of every five characters is forced to take a specific anti-touch measure, then touchies are warping the metagame in that arena to an extent that deserves a nerf. 'cause seriously, touch-based Blood skills should not be in the same league, importance-wise, as the combined force of every hex and enchantment in the game.

*They're OK on Kurzick, but killing turtles is less significant that killing gatekeepers.
**By which I mean inefficient if we take it as granted that the counter skills in question are sub-par-or-useless if the enemy isn't packing a certain threshold of that specific threat. Which most hex and enchantment strip is.

Caleb · Jul 08, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

Relative to that, if even one out of every five characters is forced to take a specific anti-touch measure, then touchies are warping the metagame in that arena to an extent that deserves a nerf. 'cause seriously, touch-based Blood skills should not be in the same league, importance-wise, as the combined force of every hex and enchantment in the game.

By that thought process your "Nerf" should include sprint, storm chaser, and each other run skill in the game. More than one out of every five characters is "forced" to take an anti runner skill on both sides of this battle, so they must be warping your metagame!

Oh, and definitely nerf "Life Bond, Life Barrier, and Life Sheath", as without specific counters against these skill on the Luxon side, your team will have no chance when you come across dual bonding monks on both gates.

Please nerf Minion Masters some more as well, as without specific corpse control skills on your taskbar (which must be warping the metagame, as more than 1of5 needs to bring something?!), well minions can be annoying.

/rolleyes

Flabber Babble · Jul 08, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria
Touch ranger should be nerfed..i know blackout, diversion, SS, wild blow, warrior's cunning, cripple shot covered with poison...etc. all these are counters to touch rangers but when you force me to and all my team to grab counters coz we might find that half of the opposite team are touch rangers..this is dumb.

We are not forced to bind towards certain build that some ppl see it cool to run it.All of you were talking about single touch ranger...let's discuss about countering half dozen of them in AB then come back to talk with me if it's easy and fun to counter them or not.

There are plenty of counters, yes... but I DO agree with Zakaria about having to form your build spefically to tailor against Touchers, it kind of takes the randomness out of AB and RA.

Jas D · Jul 08, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

I love Touchers.

Gaile already talked about this situation once.. she said they weren't a problem and there are a lot of ways to counter their build, so it won't be braught up. GGhax.

audra · Jul 08, 2006, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avaith Faer

Nothing is funnier than a cocky Mesmer casting Backfire on a touch ranger, thinking that it'll slow them down at all. Seriously, I laugh really hard when I see it happen.

Oh and guess what? Touch Rangers steal more life than they lose from Spiteful Spirit, so the damage is effectively negated.

You've never OoBd with Backfire on you? Try it, it's fun

Paperfly · Jul 09, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

By that thought process your "Nerf" should include sprint, storm chaser, and each other run skill in the game. More than one out of every five characters is "forced" to take an anti runner skill on both sides of this battle, so they must be warping your metagame!

I think you'll find that clicking the mouse to move to a specific location is a pretty freaking big Guild Wars mechanic. Certainly large enough to warrant some hate slots.

Quote:

Oh, and definitely nerf "Life Bond, Life Barrier, and Life Sheath", as without specific counters against these skill on the Luxon side, your team will have no chance when you come across dual bonding monks on both gates.

...You may have noted - I assume you didn't - that I specifically said that corrections shouldn't be made just to shake up Fort Aspenwood play. That particular metagame is always going to be rather narrow... In any case, bonders can be fought (albeit less effectively) by spells people we're going to bring anyway, such as degen or generic caster hate.

If you can come up with some better examples I'd love to hear them - if they're good enough they might actually be genuine candidates for a nerf and we'd consequently be doing the Guild Wars community a favour!

Edge Martinez · Jul 09, 2006, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

but when you force me to and all my team to grab counters coz we might find that half of the opposite team are touch rangers..this is dumb.

How is this dumb? If half the other team is touch rangers, you better bring counters for them. Are you mad because you can't play a build you like? I'm sorry... I'll send a group email to the rest of the Kurzicks asking them to tone down their aggression because zakaria wants to play a wammo. I remember when smite teams were coming up in PvP, we'd get owned by them hard. Not a single damn person I knew complained about it... we just designed new builds to offset their advantage.

Whatever. This is sad. Gaile and the other GW people are going to read all this crap and give in to the majority of whiners. And know what will happen then? We'll own with a new, more annoying build, because they're lined up and ready to move out.

Now exscuse me, I need to go petition the lottery commission for my check. I know I didn't choose the right numbers, but if they never pick my numbers, how am I ever supposed to win? That's not fair! Nerf Powerball!

Guardian of the Light · Jul 09, 2006, 05:25 AM // 05:25

It may be just me but I think the Touch Ranger Fad is dieing and now it's giving away to more balanced.

LoKi Foxfire · Jul 09, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

I still think that a 4 man Touch Ranger team can beat most of the balanced teams in AB. However, I believe most of you who complain about this build being unbalanced are the same people who just pick up 3 random strangers into a group and go into a PVP mission expecting it to be all find and dandy.

Overall, I've killed won than I've lost on when I'm running a 4 man touch ranger team but that's because it seems a majority of the people playing don't understand that the concept of a touch skill being... a touch skill. Mind you, cripple doesn't work but I've gotten my team completely DESTROYED by one mesmer using the new AoE snare elite and degen. Slap hexes onto a touch ranger and they're pretty much.

Another thing I do with my groups is make sure we all stick together and away from other major groups. We also have a specific goal: ie capping the shrines. We're far better at quickly downing a single target instead of taking on huge mobs. It seems a lot of the "newb" players either want to mob up or go off on their own and get killed. I take advantage of this. :]

Either way, to sum it up: Stop complaining and get better groups organized instead of your random assortment of people to try to win. I have had people just add as many people in PUGs before and they wonder why they get owned in Saltspray.

Still, I won't care if they nerf the builds, there will come another 'cheap' and 'unfair' build one right after the other. Deal it with and adjust like a good player does instead of whining. :]

TMWNN · Jul 09, 2006, 12:34 PM // 12:34

I've earned nearly 200k kurzick faction from AB, I reckon in all those games I would have lost under 10 games.

I've come against many touchers (i usually play monk) I run away from them while laughing at thier pathetic dps while the of my team wtfpwns the toucher.

If you can't beat a toucher team.... oh dear.

Bale_Shadowscar · Jul 09, 2006, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Not another Toucher thread >_<

I maintain my opinion that it is a design flaw and shouldn't happen. "Expertise reduces the energy cost of Attack Skills, Traps and Preparations". Some might argue that these touch skills are not attack skills because the familiar attack skills are described as 'attacks' (e.g. Punishing shot = Bow attack). Others argue that it is in fact an attack when you bite their neck and steal 65hp from them. That's a fair comment but why doesn't Dodge end when you use these supposed 'attacks'? "Dodge ends if you attack" Also, why don't stances block these 'attacks'? Is it agreeable then that in Guild Wars concepts that these are not attack skills?

Expertise reduces: Attack skills, Traps, Preparations. Touch skills aren't mentioned.

There is definitely a discrepancy between the theory and practice of these skill and Expertise that ArenaNet aren't addressing this (or maybe they will address them in the same update as the storage extension or purchasable character slots on 32nd Julembery 2019)

Yes, they aren't overpowered but that doesn't mean it should be allowed to continue.

True. Also, if Anet wants to count them as 'attack skills' then they should make Wail of Doom work on them. No touching for 30 seconds for you Mr Ranger.

Faer · Jul 09, 2006, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria

Touch ranger should be nerfed..i know blackout, diversion, SS, wild blow, warrior's cunning, cripple shot covered with poison...etc. all these are counters to touch rangers but when you force me to and all my team to grab counters coz we might find that half of the opposite team are touch rangers..this is dumb.

We are not forced to bind towards certain build that some ppl see it cool to run it.All of you were talking about single touch ranger...let's discuss about countering half dozen of them in AB then come back to talk with me if it's easy and fun to counter them or not.

Yeah umm... Just going to point out that those skills/spells are in a lot of people's builds anyway and are extremely useful against most things. So, is it really a case of you being forced to bring a skill you wouldn't bring normally, or is it one of you actually having to use the skill instead of sitting back hitting random buttons hoping you kill something?

I'm thinking the latter... As to countering half a dozen of them in AB? I'm sure if a team in HA can counter 7-8 of them in a minute or less, a team in AB or Fort Aspenwood can do it with the help of the NPC's...

TB_ · Jul 09, 2006, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Expertise reduces all non-spells, few exceptions here and there but its puts basicly. So making the stealing skills spells as they really should be fixes TRs and still allows balance to remain freeing up the game from TRs. Then all AN has to do is kill MM and AB will be saved till the next jerk build appears.

0mar · Jul 09, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Balancing for anything but GvG is absurd. Touch rangers are crap in the PvP modes that matter.

Nexus Icon · Jul 09, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

I absolutely LOVE seeing touch rangers in Arborstone. They're one of the easier cookie cutter builds to goad to death.

Quite often I'll run a mesmer degen build with some nice mesmer snares as well. Typically I'll take all 3 mes snares so as to slow down as many people as possible.

When you see that TR getting close, you whack 'em with Crippling anguish and then just keep far enough out of range so that they chase you whilst you slap down Images of Remorse, Conjure Phantasm & Phantom Pain.

Then when they die, just say something like "Lol, stupid toucher", and you can guarantee that they'll do their utmost to get back to you, at which point the fun starts again

Works a treat. Pisses off Wammos too

Theus · Jul 09, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Oh yeah.Thats a fact.Snares + Degen + running away from your target always pisses em off.

But heres a awesome way of killing them:If you're on the luxon side and a warrior/TR/assassin rushes you, run by the turtle's warriors and drop a Imagiend Burden on em.They drop instantly.

dbgtboy · Jul 09, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

you complainers are acting as if the counters will be usesless vs everything else, take crippling shot or some water hexes and there, touch ranger is screwed, all the counters mentioned here on this thread are very useful vs TONS OF DIFFERENT BUILDS, THEY ARE NOT MEANT FOR TOUCH RANGERS ONLY, so it wont hurt you or your build to take a counter or 2.

Amity and Truth · Jul 09, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Wow.
Before i even start i have to congratulate some posters on getting me as far as feeling the urge to bash my head against a wall from reading such loads of moaning and whining. Just... uhm... wow.

Allright, where do we start...
Ah let's start with the overpowered argument. So we're looking at mediocre damage, requiering you to stay in touch range with some healing to it. The healing is as mediocre as is the damage. Standard Touch Rangers don't bring anything to snare their opponents which speaks quantum leaps about the involved skill level. Aside from that, we're heaving a build with not so great damage but good long run abilities, no snares, no interrupts.
There is another very favorite build with just the exact same traits. Mediocre Damage, good long run abilities, no snare, no interrupt. Want to know what it is called? It's your favorite Wa/Mo Build.
Strangely i don't see People scream nerf anymore. They sure used to scream that back in the old days but people quickly got used to handling a warrior, especially as gimped as your average Wa/Mo. The Wa/Mo is still there and considered to be one of the most useless builds ever by a large portion of players.
Do you consider Wa/Mos overpowered? Of course not.
Do you consider Touch Rangers overpowered? Yes you do.
Same Traits, even roughly the same damage, same surviveability. Both basically don't force you to bring any counter at all to kill them.
Overpowered? You wish...

Overused.
Okay, next arguments... it's getting overused. Might be, but in all honesty i see a lot more Minion Masters and Spiteful Spirit Players in AB/RA/TA than i see touchers. Might be my Aura of Bad Build Evasion but they're seriously not that overused.

Overpowered V2.
Someone stated that 6 Touch Rangers with some small organisation can tear through groups of players. Sorry if this sounds as a flame but... everything can. Even a group of six monks, wanding like mad, can gnaw a target to death if they organise their gameplay a bit. Don't even get me started on the havoc 6 Spikers could cause. Simply throwing in higher numbers doesn't help your case as everything gets more powerful with increasing quantity in this scenario.

Counters don't count.
I never accepted that argument as many like to use it. It's just utter rubbish and of no value. If the list of counters is almost 5 times as long as the list of uses... Well i can see where that "counters don't cont" argument is aimed at then. Where there are no arguments, you don't need to answer those and can scream nerf. Dismissing arguments the opposition has by just stating "counters don't count" is piss poor.
There are scenarios the no counters argument might work. And that would be with a skill, build or attribute that is vastly overpowering and dominating every other build. ER was such a thing. Touch Rangers are nowhere near the effect or impact a fully abused Ether Renewal had back then.
Especially if your most efficient counter doesn't require you to alter anyone of your skills. Bring your same old build and just get your butt moving...

Sorry if this sounds rude, it's not meant as a flame, nor as a flamebait. But in all honesty, some of the stupid arguments that float around the room just make my thoughts want to commit cruel suicide.

Navaros · Jul 10, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Touch Rangers are not the least bit overpowered.

Diversion = Touch Ranger is owned.

Cripple = Touch Ranger is owned (unless the player is dumb enough to let himself get Plague Touched in which case he deserves it).

Not standing in one spot = Touch Ranger is owned.

Almost any hex imaginable = Touch Ranger is owned.

There are many others too.

Instead of nerfing Touch Rangers which don't need to be nerfed and should not be nerfed, I think Anet should nerf bad players instead. Keep all the bad players stuck in the Zaishen Missions until they learn enough about the game to not call for illegitmate nerfings against anything they are not smart enough to try countering.

Doomlord_Slayermann · Jul 10, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Instead of nerfing Touch Rangers which don't need to be nerfed and should not be nerfed, I think Anet should nerf bad players instead. Keep all the bad players stuck in the Zaishen Missions until they learn enough about the game to not call for illegitmate nerfings against anything they are not smart enough to try countering.

QFT. No whining is FTW.