Curse

unienaule · Sep 12, 2006, 09:22 PM // 21:22

If carinae is correct (usually the case when talking about minions), Flesh Golem does LESS DAMAGE than a fiend does. Sure, the Golem hits harder, but since it's much slower, it actually does LESS damage over time than a fiend does. Does this mean a fiend would kill a Golem? No, the golem has more hp. But are we talking about a fiend going 1v1 against a golem? Again, no. If the question is which setup does higher dps (damage per second), since it's fiends, the golem loses, at least when farming. It does not have a damage advantage. However, when you look at dps overall, you're looking at 160 with 10 fiends or 158 with fiends and a golem, so the difference isn't that huge, which is where I will leave off, since the other posts have dealt with the non-damage issues well.

Xioden · Sep 12, 2006, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Flesh Golem deals 14dps. Fiends deal 16dps.

Fiends>FG

If they doubled his attack rate, FG would be worth it.

Go take FG and fiends into the temple and try that for yourself. The Golem attacks at half the speed, but do around 4x the damage as fiends. No, I'm not pulling this out of no where, and yes I did personally go and test this with each against the same targets.

Carinae · Sep 12, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

There is no comparison, Golem > 1 Fiend or 1 Horror or 1 Vampiric Horror or 2 Minons.

Blanket statements are usually untrue. This one is as well. The situation of your battle (context) is what matters...

Are you a minion bomber? You might be better served by Bone Minions.

Are you soloing? FG is a good choice.

Are you already set on an Elite skill? Take 10 Fiends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

People tend to make the comparison of 10 fiends vs 1 golem. Sorry, but a Flesh Golem does not replace 10 Fiends or 10 Minions or 10 Horrors (vampiric or normal).

OK, this IS true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

10 fiends vs 9 fiends and 1 golem, do you really think you can win?

Are we talking PvP or PvE? In PvP you won't have your Golem very long, it'll be taken from you. Fiends do not attract VA/VG like Golem does.

In PvE, straight up, FG does less dps to 60AL targets than Fiends do. Minion Data

FG also downright stupid and will run wayyyy out of aggro range to attack targets and lead them back to you. Fiends don't.

But the difference isn't about dps. It's about what gets the job done better in a given situation. Since 10 Fiends is usually adequate, you need to justify using your Elite on FG besides the fact that he's big and scarry.

Carinae · Sep 12, 2006, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xioden

Go take FG and fiends into the temple and try that for yourself. The Golem attacks at half the speed, but do around 4x the damage as fiends. No, I'm not pulling this out of no where, and yes I did personally go and test this with each against the same targets.

Some alliance mates were having troubles MMing Temple also. I didn't have much difficulty with it, kept 10 Fiends alive all the time. I will say this about Temple, you have to watch the Elementalists. Lots of AOE which can really hurt Fiends. In that regard, FG is nice because it can take more damage.

But how hard is it to let the Warriors charge in first and you follow after a few seconds?

Nanood · Sep 12, 2006, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Just a quick idea. Why not bring both ?

Oh damn. That would require a whole bunch of new rules and we would be super leet lol.

If only.

I know.. Useless post. But as long as we are having fun right ?

Kaida the Heartless · Sep 13, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

+ N/Me:
AotL
Arcane Mimicry
BotM

+ N/Mo:
Flesh Golem
Healing Breeze/Mending/Blood Bond/etc.
Vigorous Spirit

+ Ventrillo

Steamroll Missions with this. It's quite fun. The concept is pretty simple. The N/Me uses Arcane Mimicry to summon a golem whenever needed. This player is also the primary minion healer, and should try to maintain alot of Vampiric Horrors. The N/Mo is also a MM (fiends), but they also have the job of helping to maintain the N/Me. I'll post the build if you all want to, stats, skills, and equipment.

Ensign · Sep 13, 2006, 01:28 AM // 01:28

They've upped the damage on Flesh Golem. I still don't think it's that good.

Peace,
-CxE

Evilsod · Sep 13, 2006, 01:49 AM // 01:49

I don't see the point in Heal Area in a MM build..... everything you need is in Death Magic.

I do prefer AotL in terms of been able to spam BotM indefinatly to keep minions alive. The golem may not deal more damage over time, but it can deal 'spike' damage to help finish off that 1 enemy. I've been seeing what the hype is with FG, after been hit by it while playing boon prot in FoW when the MM died i can't deny it hurt... but its refire was pathetic.

Recently though i've been using both Taste of Pain and Taste of Death. Why bother with Heal Area? If you need health mid battle (you'l probably get healed by monks anyway) use Taste of Pain for a quick 158/166 health, its very likely there is at least 1 enemy there with less than 50% health. Out of battle needing to keep fiends alive? Taste of Death the Flesh Golem, reanimate it, BotM a bit, etc.

Xioden · Sep 13, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Some alliance mates were having troubles MMing Temple also. I didn't have much difficulty with it, kept 10 Fiends alive all the time. I will say this about Temple, you have to watch the Elementalists. Lots of AOE which can really hurt Fiends. In that regard, FG is nice because it can take more damage.

But how hard is it to let the Warriors charge in first and you follow after a few seconds?

I mean Temple of Balthazar to test damage. The temple you are refering to, between afflicted explosion and and AoE damage from various things Minion bomber works much better if you want Any Melee minions. Fiends are dead in one Breath of flames, so they're gone and out quickly aswell.

Kali Magdalene · Sep 13, 2006, 06:24 AM // 06:24

So I decided to look in here and wondered if the AotL vs. FG debate continued...so not surprised to see this at the top of the forum.

My own answer is: Both skills are good for different reasons. Use whichever works for you situationally. Unfortunately, I haven't been in Sorrow's Furnace to say what works best there.

My own preference: If I'm in a real team with real people, AotL works very nicely. If I'm solo, Flesh Golem seems to work better. Maybe it's my imagination, but I seem to come under more fire when I have henchmen, which often means chain-stripped enchantments.

During the dragon festival, I found my flesh golem was extremely useful against the monsters in the mini missions. It just tore them to pieces, and a couple of times soloed most of a full spawn after other players had died, and its own death was irrelevant as I could just make a new one.

Ensign · Sep 13, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Just did a few tests on the Isle - Flesh Golem is clocking in at just under 28 DPS against the 60 AL Barrels. So it's just a bit under two Bone Fiends worth of damage, with a bigger body and more armor.

Peace,
-CxE

Kaida the Heartless · Sep 13, 2006, 07:48 AM // 07:48

I think people are overlooking the fact that minions are meat shields as well. Granted, they are excellent damage dealers as well, but pulling damage off of damage dealers and allowing them to focus is an advantage as well. This is one fact that has been neglected in this discussion thus far.

Flesh Golem:
One Big Tank. High HP, High Def (from a minion's standpoint). Also melee and able to grab a good lot of the enemy aggro. BotM spamming is still effective, but health must be watched much more carefully.

Bonus Advantage: Infinite Corpse loop. Good for healing (Taste of Death) or spreading poison once the golem has engaged (Death Nova).
Drawback(?): Only worth an estimated 1-2 minions.

AotL:
Heal Powa. Infinite BotM spamming with Vampiric Horrors means that all your minions, though they have less armor (than a Flesh Golem), will be getting healed constantly.

Bonus Advantage: Able to maintain minions much more easily outside of combat.
Drawback: Stripable

I would have to say that AotL is better from a "meatshield" standpoint, but if your going into an area that has alot of corpses to constantly replace fatigued minions, then by all means, bring Flesh Golem for the damage.

Blackhawk · Sep 13, 2006, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

I don't see the point in Heal Area in a MM build..... everything you need is in Death Magic.

This is very true, and I agree on that score, but on the other side of the coin, I like to know that I can also heal my teammates to a certain degree as well as myself if the Monk cops it.

Pick Me · Sep 13, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Blanket statements are usually untrue. This one is as well. The situation of your battle (context) is what matters....

Point well taken. Its a one on one battle between 1 bone fiend, 1 bone horror, 1 vampiric horror, 2 minions and 1 flesh golem (not a battle royal though, just 1 vs 1).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Are you a minion bomber? You might be better served by Bone Minions.

You'd also probably be better off as a Rit/N as well (not 100% convinced of this, but still N/Rit or Rit/N not a N/Mo)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Are you soloing? FG is a good choice.

Are you already set on an Elite skill? Take 10 Fiends.

If you use an elite which one? Aotl, OoB, FG, Virulence, TF?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Are we talking PvP or PvE? In PvP you won't have your Golem very long, it'll be taken from you. Fiends do not attract VA/VG like Golem does.

Probably true, but either way, in PvP your AotL will be removed and you'd be killed (yes you get health back, but shatter enchantment will take some of that right off. Lets not forget, fiends tend to stick together, nice SS kills them all very quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

In PvE, straight up, FG does less dps to 60AL targets than Fiends do. Minion Data.

FG also downright stupid and will run wayyyy out of aggro range to attack targets and lead them back to you. Fiends don't.

Due to faster attack rates. Fiends (at least my fiends anyway) seem to get way to close to the monsters and get killed (melee monsters hit them, but my fiends won't run, they just stand there and get hit, not to bright are they?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

But the difference isn't about dps. It's about what gets the job done better in a given situation. Since 10 Fiends is usually adequate, you need to justify using your Elite on FG besides the fact that he's big and scarry.

I never justify my elites by how cool the icon looks, or how cool the effects look nor how cool the golem looks (he scratches himself way too often when he just stands there).

He can be your self-heal (taste of death then reanimate golem), he can take hits (unlike other minions), he can scare little children too

.

Carinae · Sep 13, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

@Ensign: That's interesting about FG. That's about where I would have thought his damage should be. I guess I missed the update there, or was it not documented?

@Pickme: I wasn't trying to pick on you. Mostly I was incredulous at people thinking a MM needed FG (or AotL for that matter) to be good at what they do. I run Empathic Removal and think it rocks.

Pick Me · Sep 13, 2006, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

@Ensign: That's interesting about FG. That's about where I would have thought his damage should be. I guess I missed the update there, or was it not documented?

@Pickme: I wasn't trying to pick on you. Mostly I was incredulous at people thinking a MM needed FG (or AotL for that matter) to be good at what they do. I run Empathic Removal and think it rocks.

I wasn't offended at any of your comments. You basically said I should explain my positioning (which I didn't really before), so I did (or at least tried to).

I agree, before factions, I never used an elite as an MM (not even when I did get AotL). Empathic Removal? I'll try that. Thanks for the suggestion.

Ensign · Sep 13, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

I hadn't seen any Flesh Golem damage tests since Pharalon's, and it was clear that the damage had been upped since then, hence I retested last night and got the 28 DPS I just posted.

Peace,
-CxE

twicky_kid · Sep 13, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

From what I've noticed about Flesh golem is he seems to be smarter than the other minions. He switches targets when you attack something. Regular minions hold arggo till the target is dead.

I also notice that he acts like a Leader for the other minions. They tend to follow his target and DO change targets when the Golem does.

I don't think his dmg has any real impact because you can only have one.

Hella Good · Sep 13, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

It all depends on the playstyle. I personally take Vamps and Fiends and use OoB most often. AotL is good for people who like having the comfort of a lower sac and therefore higher heal potential (plus there is certain skills that trigger if you have lower health than opponent and those work very well with AotL). Others prefer having a chunky monkey tanking upfront and I can see the logic behind that- the golemn is rly a tank of sorts, surely you can argue the DPS but ignoring the fact that it can soak up huge amounts of damage is a bit short sighted. So the bottom line is not which is the best or worst, the bottom line is which elite you feel most comfortable playing with. I like OoB for myself.

Carinae · Sep 13, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

From what I've noticed about Flesh golem is he seems to be smarter than the other minions.

That's funny that you said that because I was going to post that I think he's the stupidest minion-type. Different experiences I suppose.

I've seen my FG run wayyyyyyyyy outside aggro range, attack a mob and lead them back to me.

I've seen my FG get stuck on objects, walls, even stuck in the middle of the open floor.

I've seen my FG run up to someone, stop, change his mind, turn, run to someone else, stop, run back to the first guy, stop and finally decide to attack.