Curse

johnmedgla · Sep 12, 2006, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Hi folks, I tried to search to see fi this has cropped up before, and if I missed, I apologize. I'm trying to decide whether Animate Flesh Golem, or Aura of the Liche is a better elite to take as a PvE minion master (specifically for Sorrow's Furnace). I know the Golem does significantly more damage than other minions, but I have to confess I love using AotL with blood renewal and spamming the heck out of Blood of the Master - it certainly makes the minions I summon last an awful lot longer. I'm certain my damage output decreases in the case of 10 fiends & horrors vs 10 fiends, horrors, and a Golem, but I'm not sure if that's balanced by the fact that when I'm running AotL, I have the full 10 minions alive and wailing on the Stone Summit a lot more often than when I'm running with the Golem.

I can't help but think nowadays lots of people get antsy when they see a MM without the golem, and a surprising number of people a Deldrimor War-Camp (even Necros) have no idea how useful AotL is for a MM. I honestly get the impression that quite a few Oro farmers have never finsihed the game and so never encountered the skill at all.

Thoughts anyone?

Mistermagoo · Sep 12, 2006, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Flesh golem FTW, you shouldn't really be up front taking the majority of the damage O_O; AoTL used to be really popular, I enjoyed it myself, but it only lasts 30 seconds (I think -.-) I know you can just renew it, but I would rather have an extra 70-140 dmg every few seconds

johnmedgla · Sep 12, 2006, 12:38 PM // 12:38

I don't use it to reduce damage from attacks - I use it to reduce damage from Saccing. It really does mean I can spam Blood of the master every time it recharges and only sac 27 health with 10 minions. With blood renewal on, I can do it indefinitely. Plus, since it lasts for 44secs at 16 death, I don't find it a burden energy wise. I know what you mean about the big damage numbers from the golem though, they're very tempting....

nebuchanezzar · Sep 12, 2006, 12:49 PM // 12:49

AotL > Flesh Golem. Yes this has been discussed before. If you dont have AotL then use Flesh Golem. If you have AotL use it. Period.

Xioden · Sep 12, 2006, 12:50 PM // 12:50

The golem is the equivilent of 1-3 fiends damage wise, not to mention it can take more damage, and it's corpse can be recycled.

I personally run with Vamps, fiends, and the golem. Get the golem up, cast vamp whenever possible, otherwise fiend. In combat 2-3 vamps can cover BoTM spamming quite nicely. In a long stretch between combat, a monk shouldn't have any issue throwing a heal or two your way.

There is also of course bringing the tried and true method of bringing Heal area with you for self healing/Minion healing.

Yanman.be · Sep 12, 2006, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Depends on the environment really?

Pick Me · Sep 12, 2006, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Depending on what Sorrow's quest you are doing (or farming).

Enchantments get stripped really fast for the most part. Going against the Djinn (3 of them especially) a Flesh Golem will die in a second (600 damage per hit).

Golems are nice and cheap, but Necromancers will create wells when your Golem is killed (their spells cast faster than summoning a minion).

Overall, I still like the Golem.

XvArchonvX · Sep 12, 2006, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by nebuchanezzar

AotL > Flesh Golem. Yes this has been discussed before. If you dont have AotL then use Flesh Golem. If you have AotL use it. Period.

Any chance you could share the link to this discussion?

Blackhawk · Sep 12, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Depends on the environment really?

Especially where there's a lot of enchant removal/degen going on, as those sorts of enviroments tend to make AotL a bit useless and the Golem a more viable Elite

Also renders a lot of Necros who dont read the "small print" regarding AotL dead.....

Cherno · Sep 12, 2006, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Any chance you could share the link to this discussion?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/searchbt.php

Keywords "Flesh golem aotl"

Minus Sign · Sep 12, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Its the weapon you can see versus the (imo better) skill that you can't. Many people still prefer taking 2 Emos over a mesmer, even though its stated time and again in this forum how powerful the interupting hexers can be. But you can SEE the Meteor Shower. And you can see a minion. PuGs prefer flesh golems because its a very quick gague of an MMs ability. AotL is subtle.

AotL, I feel, is more powerful too. You can keep your enitre horde (small as it is now) alive more easily than you could if your elite slot is taken by one damage skill. Even if that skill is the golem.

That it reduces damage and health in half is also useful. Healers need only heal you for half the ammount of other players to get you to full. An Orison has the potential to bring you back to full, allowing them to lay their spells more heavily on other castors. Add to that the half all damage (not just sacs, but anything that attacks you too and if you have Heal Area in a PuG you're pretty much self managing. Bring vamp minions too? whew man.

On the whole, I prefer AotL. But I use golem too. Its fun.

johnmedgla · Sep 12, 2006, 01:28 PM // 13:28

Wow - thanks for all your replies.

As to environment, as I mentioned, this is for SF, farming most typically (blushes guiltily).

I agree that enchantment removal is a problem, but I can honestly say I've only been stripped once (I got way too close to Villnar) and the Dark Binders typically take life bond from someone else, or Blath's Spirit from thje Bonder if they've strayed too close. I'm usually a second or two behind the Tank, so Taskmasters tend to have used their shatter before I get into range, and are dead before it recharges.

My own experience is mixed, I have to confess. I've just made three quick Oro runs, twice with AotL, and once with the Golem. First, on both occassions I got 'Zomg Noobloid (sic), no golem? WTF is this Aura of the Lich Sh*t,' and 'Where the Golem you fool,' respectively. That said, it becomes impossibly easy to maintain a pretty huge army. The monk panicked at first and massively overhealed me, on both occassions, but once they realised what was going on they quite happily let me sac a few rounds before giving me a small boost, unless aggro was broken. I was running 16 Death, 9+2 SR and 9+1 Blood, and with Aura on Blood Renewal is actually a viable self heal, it literally provides more health than I was saccing with BotM and 10 minions every 2 seconds.

I honestly didn't notice any difference in the rate things died once I had the minions up. Having teh golem certainly helps immediately after zoning, when one big hitter makes it easier to generate more corpses and so start the army, but AotL makes it a heck of a lot easier to keep 10 healthy minions pounding on things constantly. Additionally, while I used to be quite cavalier about letting minions die and replacing them, I started to notice that enemies aggro very differently with 10 maintained minions vs 10 minions rising and falling over the course of the battle. Since the initial body wall stays largely intact (due to shocking BotM spamming) there's a lot less pressure on the backline.

For the AotL build I dropped healing prayers entirely (I was a N/Mo, with no monk skills) since it just wasn't required. I know Heal Area is great between battles, when all your minions are clustered neatly around you, but I'd rather sacrifice a skill slot to have the utility of BR and AotL (and avoid the drawbacks of HA when I AM pulling aggro!). As a side effect, Dark Bond now lasts Way longer than it used to - so on the rare occassions when I am stripped or shattered, that's what goes, not AotL.

I have to say I personally am really leaning in favour of AotL, but I've had three people in 5 man groups today who had never even heard of it (one was an SS Necro for God's sake!).

I suppose it comes down to playstyle.

Carinae · Sep 12, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xioden

The golem is the equivilent of 1-3 fiends damage wise, not to mention it can take more damage, and it's corpse can be recycled.

Flesh Golem deals 14dps. Fiends deal 16dps.

Fiends>FG

If they doubled his attack rate, FG would be worth it.

holden · Sep 12, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnmedgla

My own experience is mixed, I have to confess. I've just made three quick Oro runs, twice with AotL, and once with the Golem. First, on both occassions I got 'Zomg Noobloid (sic), no golem? WTF is this Aura of the Lich Sh*t,' and 'Where the Golem you fool,' respectively.

those guys are idiots who have never played a MM. they'll try to tell the bonder he needs 16 in prot, not 15. in SF i'd go AotL even with the risk of losing the enchantment.

golemshmolem.

i'd take fiends and vamps personally. 8/2 or 7/3. i'd leave blood renewal at home and be monk secondary. you'll take less heat from the idiots. but really with the bonder the heal monk will be sitting on his thumb the whole time.....

Jeff Highwind · Sep 12, 2006, 03:40 PM // 15:40

I'm suprised no one's said this about PuG's. They prefer Golem because Tanks/Sins love the mindless tanking it does for them. And since it's recyclable, they never have to worry about taking heat themselves.

That still doesn't mean it's vital. I just started playing a Necro and the AotL combo sounds lovely in terms of maintaining minions. Sorrow's Furnace though, if I recollect there aren't alot of bodies on the missions I took so FG may be viable. It truly is your decision, experiment and come to your own conclusion.

Pick Me · Sep 12, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Highwind

I'm suprised no one's said this about PuG's. They prefer Golem because Tanks/Sins love the mindless tanking it does for them. And since it's recyclable, they never have to worry about taking heat themselves.

That still doesn't mean it's vital. I just started playing a Necro and the AotL combo sounds lovely in terms of maintaining minions. Sorrow's Furnace though, if I recollect there aren't alot of bodies on the missions I took so FG may be viable. It truly is your decision, experiment and come to your own conclusion.

In Sorrow's Furnace, there are many bodies (only ice golems and Djinns don't produce bodies). Its the necromancers that create wells of suffering, which steals bodies from you, so you can't make minions (priests rez the dead too).

Carinae · Sep 12, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

You can beat Dark Binders 95% of the time, and the rezzing priests...I love those guys! I kill them LAST! Everytime they rez someone, I get ANOTHER corpse.

Osi Ri S · Sep 12, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

yea the bloodstained boots are a must and it really helps if you have at least one 20/20 wand or offhand. Personally i like AotL rather then Flesh Golem. Not just in sorrows furnace. the only time i take flesh golem is if im in a place where corpses are scarce.

yes fiends>golem, especially since the fiends can just stand there and hit every target rather then wasting time running into melee range. normally by the time my golem gets to the enemy its already dead from henchies or my fiends.

Pick Me · Sep 12, 2006, 07:29 PM // 19:29

People,

Please refrain from comparing Golem to fiend to minion to horror (normal or vampiric).

There is no comparison, Golem > 1 Fiend or 1 Horror or 1 Vampiric Horror or 2 Minons.

People tend to make the comparison of 10 fiends vs 1 golem. Sorry, but a Flesh Golem does not replace 10 Fiends or 10 Minions or 10 Horrors (vampiric or normal).

10 fiends vs 9 fiends and 1 golem, do you really think you can win?

Golems have more health, do more damage (while attack slower) than any ONE minion/fiend/horror.

The question is Golem or health. Damage reduction from AotL or a portable corpse.

Its a judgement call. My judgement as stated earlier in a previous post, is Golem. But everyone has their own opinion.

Mars Dragonblade · Sep 12, 2006, 09:03 PM // 21:03

While AotL is good when sacrificing health, I never find myself needing to use it ever. 16 death, 11 soul reaping and the rest in healing prayers. Bring BotM and Heal Area, that's the problem solved, at least for me. Also when you mentioned wells, if you have a weapon with 20% fast casting for death magic and bloodstained boots, you can raise any kind of minion in 1.125 seconds if you're lucky, otherwise it's always 2.25 seconds (25% faster casting time = 0.75 x 3 = 2.25, 2.25/2 = 1.125).