Curse

mercenary71 · Aug 31, 2006, 04:21 AM // 04:21

OK, I went ahead and ran my own numbers against the practice dummies and apparently I'm getting different results from everybody else?

Test Bed
Axe - 16
Str - 15
Weapon - Customized Victo's Axe (20/20, +15 > 50 with 20% customize bonus)
Skill - Wild Blow (since this deals crits this MAY be what is throwing off my numbers but using since I get guaranteed consistent results)

I'm doing 17 extra damage on the AL 60 dummy, 17 extra on the AL 80 dummy, and 18 extra on the AL 100 dummy on a sundering hit versus a 'standard' hit (both using wild blow). If on average it takes 5 hits to get a sundering blow in then that would equate to 15 damage done over 5 hits if using a vampiric axe (5 * 3 = 15) which would put vampiric and sundering more or less on par. Again the fact that Wild Blow inflicts crits which are max damage may be throwing those numbers off a bit but can it be throwing them off badly enough to invalidate these numbers? These are measured numbers not calculated. Also, I don't really have an attachment to either type just trying to figure out what might work best...

Actual numbers using test bed described above:

AL 60 AL 80 AL 100
Base 75 55 41
Sund 92 72 59

Numbers dropped to 15, 15, and 14 differential when I dropped my strength from 15 down to 1.

mercenary71 · Aug 31, 2006, 04:49 AM // 04:49

To take it even farther went with a Primal Rage + Judge's Insight + Signet of Strength with same axe and stats and the numbers were even wider here. Primal Rage takes a little longer to get those crits (again probably the wildcard here) but does frequently enough to be able to get consistent results quickly. Measured 22, 25, and 26 point spread against the AL 60, 80, 100 dummies respectively.

AL 60 - 100/122
AL 80 - 82/107
AL 100 - 68/94

Savio · Aug 31, 2006, 04:56 AM // 04:56

The numbers I was using in my previous post involved hammers. Axes should be slightly less.

Also, since strength AP only activates when you use attack skills, just keep in mind regular hits and critical hits do slightly less than what Wild Blow shows in your tests.

At 16 weapon mastery you get crits about 23.5% of the time. There is a significant gap between critical hit and normal attack damage; the highest damage you do with a non-critical axe hit with 15 strength against a 60 AL target is 52 (a difference of 23 damage, which will drop sundering's bonus by a third). Were you to have a critical hit every single time you struck, Sundering would be a worthwhile choice, but you don't. As I stated in my last post, the chances of you having critical+sundering hits enough to make a difference are pretty slim.

Darkgift Risen · Aug 31, 2006, 12:45 PM // 12:45

20/20 + judges insight + str sig FTW? what if u couple the 20/20 with other AP skills? gotta say when i want a softie dead...sundering in the way to go...target shouldn't be alive long enough for the vamp to matter....

mercenary71 · Aug 31, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

That's also the point of a Primal Rage build - bumps your crit chance to 55% as well as giving you 20% AP so in that case you could actually rely on getting a lot of critical hits (at least against lvl 20 opponents).

To be perfectly honest that's not my standard build but I do think it brings up a legitimate case where sundering mods can be effective. Just like how vamp mods get a big boost when put together with Hundred Blades/Cyclone Axe/Triple Chop/Barrage builds where the extra hits give vamp the edge when fighting multiple opponents.

I think the key thing is to make your mod and your build work together to maximize effect and then both mods (or any mod for that matter) will be useful...

Savio · Aug 31, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkgift Risen

20/20 + judges insight + str sig FTW?

Armor Penetration doesn't affect +damage from Signet of Strength either. +damage from skills ingores armor.

As far as stacking on additional AP goes:

Average damage per second with Primal Rage, Judge's Insight, and Sundering: 65.4
Average damage per second with Primal Rage, Judge's Insight, and Vampiric: 64.7
Average damage per second with IAS stance, Judge's Insight, and Sundering: 51.2
Average damage per second with IAS stance, Judge's Insight, and Vampiric: 52.3

With PR and JI, Sundering does 0.7 damage more. But then again, why exactly are you using PR?

With only JI, vampiric wins out. The difference is more noticeable on higher-armor targets. Sundering and vampiric are actually pretty close in terms of damage per second on axes and swords, with vampiric barely getting the win. On the other weapons there's no contest between the two; vampiric blows sundering away (on hammers and bows, it's because of the 5 lifesteal instead of 3; on daggers, it's because they do so little damage sundering has much less of an effect.)

mercenary71 · Aug 31, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

The reason for the Signet of Strength is that Primal Rage disables other attack skills so if you can put a prep on you get a damage bonus instead of just straight attacks while your skill bar is blacked out. As far as vamp versus sundering it does not apply at all (applies equally to both mods). I've seen this build before on guild wiki but other than playing with it a bit when I capped it haven't used it much since disabling the skill bar makes you extremely 1-dimensional for 10 seconds but it might be fun to try out.

Again not trying to prove sundering superior to vampiric (or the other way for that matter) but just showing some spots where sundering mods work fairly well... I think we're both kinda seeing the same thing?

Savio · Sep 01, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Again not trying to prove sundering superior to vampiric (or the other way for that matter) but just showing some spots where sundering mods work fairly well... I think we're both kinda seeing the same thing?

Like I said before, sundering isn't the complete waste it was when it was 10/10, but it's still second to vampiric in almost every case, and one of the rare scenarios where it becomes (barely) better than vampiric is when you're running a terrible warrior elite. There isn't any choice at all, not if you want the most effective mod.

Big Chief Red · Sep 21, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

you sure about the +dmg from attack skills being armor ignoring? if that is the case surely any skills with +x% armor piercing would be very obselete

Savio · Sep 21, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Chief Red

you sure about the +dmg from attack skills being armor ignoring? if that is the case surely any skills with +x% armor piercing would be very obselete

Yes, +damage is armor ignoring. The AP from Strength, Penetrating Chop, and the like applies to the base damage only.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 22, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

which is why penetrating blow is now in the gutter for real axe skills like Cleave {E} or actually better: Eviscerate {E}

Cleave's Spammability allows your strength penetration to blast every 4 swings and Whirling Axe, if the enemy can't block you, Let's you use your strength bonus every other swing... You become a DPS axe instead of a spike axe... Sword can do it better, but if the enemy can prevent spikes, hard dps is probably better.

Thom Bangalter · Sep 22, 2006, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercenary71

OK, I went ahead and ran my own numbers against the practice dummies and apparently I'm getting different results from everybody else?

Test Bed
Axe - 16
Str - 15
Weapon - Customized Victo's Axe (20/20, +15 > 50 with 20% customize bonus)
Skill - Wild Blow (since this deals crits this MAY be what is throwing off my numbers but using since I get guaranteed consistent results)

I'm doing 17 extra damage on the AL 60 dummy, 17 extra on the AL 80 dummy, and 18 extra on the AL 100 dummy on a sundering hit versus a 'standard' hit (both using wild blow). If on average it takes 5 hits to get a sundering blow in then that would equate to 15 damage done over 5 hits if using a vampiric axe (5 * 3 = 15) which would put vampiric and sundering more or less on par. Again the fact that Wild Blow inflicts crits which are max damage may be throwing those numbers off a bit but can it be throwing them off badly enough to invalidate these numbers? These are measured numbers not calculated. Also, I don't really have an attachment to either type just trying to figure out what might work best...

Actual numbers using test bed described above:

AL 60 AL 80 AL 100
Base 75 55 41
Sund 92 72 59

Numbers dropped to 15, 15, and 14 differential when I dropped my strength from 15 down to 1.

WHO RUNS 15 STRENGTH EVER?

Vampiric is always better, this thread needs to be closed, the warrior subfolder makes me sad.

This thread is on notice.

JR · Sep 22, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0041494&page=7