Curse

Grammar · Dec 27, 2005, 06:33 AM // 06:33

I still flip-flop back and forth on this one, but I'm starting to lean a little bit (see conclusion below).
Executioner's does exactly twice the extra damage as Penetrating, but Penetrating has 20% armor piercing and a lower adredaline cost. Hmmm, lets look at this most closely (we'll use 12 axe mastery)

At 12 axe, Executioner's does 36 extra damage at a cost of 8 adrenaline.
At 12 axe, Penetrating does 18 extra damage and has 20% armor piercing at a cost of 5 adrenaline.

Another thing to consider is this: For strength Warriors, using an axe attack skill with a higher frequency of use makes better use of their extra armor piercing, because it gets used more often that way.
So a better example of strength warriors would be this (we'll use 10 strength to make it easy):

At 12 axe and 10 strength, Executioner's does 36 extra damage and has 10% armor piercing at a cost of 8 adrenaline.
At 12 axe and 10 stength, Penetrating does 18 extra damage and has 30% armor piercing at a cost of 5 adrenaline.

After 16 strikes of adrenaline, Executioner's does 72 extra damage and pierces 10% armor two times.
After 16 strikes of adrenaline, Penetrating does 54 extra damage and pierces 30% armor three times.

^^^ You guys see where I'm going with this.
For strength Warriors fighting high AL monsters, Penetrating would appear to be better than Executioner's.

Feel free to discuss.

Dmitri3 · Dec 27, 2005, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Penetrating Blow penetration doesn't stack with strength penetration, neither it does stack with Judge's Insight. If your team uses JI for example, you might screw 10% penetration just for using that skill.
Plus, Executioner's is only really needed for spikes - as it always goes after Eviscerate... Executioner's is always ready then.

This is why it sucks, end of discussion.
The only way you can use well this skill is to use it on ranger/warrior who don't have strenght attribute.

pagansaint · Dec 27, 2005, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Except it is good for very high armor level opponents, such as warrior bosses and high (24+) level mobs.

Unless you are using Judge's Insight. Then it is worse than Executioner's Strike, the extra 20% of their armor removed from your normal 8-12% from a normal warrior is sometimes worth the "lower" plus damage number.

Also, it isn't like they have the same amount of adrenaline...

You can use Penetrating Blow twice as often as Executioner's Strike, that is two attacks of 20% armor penetration with an additional 18 damage added in rather than one attack of 8-12% armor penetration with 34 damage.

The only way Executioner's Strike is better DoT is if you have Judge's Insight up for the attack, otherwise using two Penetrating Blows is more damaging.

Dmitri3 · Dec 27, 2005, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Not really, if you did read my message - Executioner's Strike is used in Spike combos. You don't need 2 strikes, you need only 1 strike.
That is also the reason why Eviscerate is used over Cleave in PvP.

As for PvE, you can use any skills there... it doesn't really matter. It's not like mob gonna spike or lock the target.
Arguing what's best for PvE is just lame because it's already too easy with just a bit of logical build.

Grammar · Dec 27, 2005, 10:56 AM // 10:56

"Penetrating Blow penetration doesn't stack with strength penetration"

Really? I guess I always assumed that it did.
Can anyone confirm if this is the case?

And what about sundering weapon mods, does that penetration stack with strength or Penetrating Blow?

LordMahal · Dec 27, 2005, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Just about nothing stacks in this game, runes or skills. And you dont use Executioners strike last you use EVISCERATE last, everybody knows that, I thought. Its a perfect killing blow. So, since nothing stacks, whats the break down for penetrating blow, if you have a sundering weapon, and 10 strength... how does it all work?

kvndoom · Dec 27, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Easiest way to settle this is to just find a high level boss who's hard / impossible to kill solo (monk Griffon boss, maybe?) and run off x attacks with Penetrating, see what the actual damage is from each attack, then run off x attacks Executioner's and record the damage values there too. Because of the axe's low minimum damage (6... sheesh), I've seen Penetrating Attack often do less damage than a normal attack. 6 damage from axe + 18 from Penetrating Attack + 20% AP, vs say 28 damage from axe + 10% AP from 10 strength. I was bringing it on my Ice Imps runs, but after multiple times of seeing 20 damage from PA followed with 25 from the next, non-skill attack, I realized it was worthless. In all my experiences using an axe, I've never seen PA do substantially more damage than a plain ol' swing of the axe on a consistent basis. You gotta stop putting too much value into quoting the statistics from a skill's description, as compared to real-world results.

Sk8tborderx · Dec 27, 2005, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Ok the armor penetration from strength does stack with penetrating blow because it is effective for ALL attacks. I did test this and did more damage with penetrating blow with 10 strength then with 0 strength. I even used judges insight and again did more damage then without it. Also in spikes you will always use eviscerate FIRST to cause the deep wound so you can finish with the next attack. Sundering mods are worthless, you do 2-3 extra damage 10% of the time. You should use a vampiric haft so you will do 3 extra damage every time and you get health back.

pagansaint · Dec 27, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Yeah, but alot of PvE builds, especially axe, are solo builds where you will only take maybe one actual single target attack.

The extra armor penetration from Penetrating attack and the rate at which I can spam it is why I take it, to take down any survivors and also to take down bosses alot faster than with normal attacks. Also the monk bosses aren't hard because of their armor, they are hard because of their heals.

Former Ruling · Dec 27, 2005, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammar

"Penetrating Blow penetration doesn't stack with strength penetration"

Really? I guess I always assumed that it did.
Can anyone confirm if this is the case?

And what about sundering weapon mods, does that penetration stack with strength or Penetrating Blow?

penetrating [attack] (shot, blow, whatever), all have STATIC unchangable 20% penetration.

They take whatever penetration that would occer, and automatically change it to 20%. Even if they would be doing more than 20%.

--------------------------
Now.

From my experience..Penetrating Blow pretty much blows. Penetrating Shot is good because there is no Bow attack that does insane more dmg than it, so the 20% helps. But when you have attacks that do TWICE the dmg it does - it just isnt worth it.

20% pen is like a ~10% increase in dmg over the normal attack depending on the AL of the opponent. 18+10% of 18 is no where near 36, especially if you factor in Strength penetration (which penetrating blow doesnt it) on the 36 >_>.

Penetrating blow was put in, I think, for people wanting to exploit cheap adrenaline skills only. Its hella weaker, but costs less adren. But that strategy isnt used very much..so It gets left in the dust.

Grammar · Dec 28, 2005, 12:30 AM // 00:30

^^^ This post raises 2 more questions that I have.....

1. Strength armor piercing only affects attack skills, right? And does nothing for normal swings, right?
That's what I always thought anyway, since thats what the description of the attribute says. But some people in this thread are making it sound like you get the strength armor piercing even for normal swings.

2. The 20% armor piercing you get from Penetrating Blow isn't just for the added damage (+18), but for the whole amount of damage done (6-28 + 18), right?
So when you use Penetrating Blow and you hit for say, 46 damage (28+18), all 46 points of damage have 20% armor piercing, not just the +18 added damage, am I right?
Again, that's what I always assumed to be the case, based on the skill description.

This question can also be applied to strength armor piercing and Executioner's Strike. The 10% strength armor piercing applys to the entire amount of damage done (6-28 + 36) and not just the +36 added damage, right?

Confusing stuff, I know, but this kind of thing is tough to test in-game because of the axe's very wide range of damage.

Former Ruling · Dec 28, 2005, 02:23 AM // 02:23

1) From my experience, the description is correct.

2) Those damages are not calculated seperately, so there would be no way for the penetratoin to only effect part of it.

kvndoom · Dec 28, 2005, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagansaint

Also the monk bosses aren't hard because of their armor, they are hard because of their heals.

That's what I mean. They should stay alive long enough for you to get accurate numbers to average out. But I agree with Former Ruling, because I have seen on many occasions Penetrating Blow do less damage than a normal axe attack, mainly because of the axe's wide damage spread. Look at it this way (using 12 weapon attribute as an example):

minimum damage from axe (6) + maximum damage from attack (17) = 23, less than 28, maximum damage from weapon alone.

Compare those numbers to any other adrenaline based +damage melee attack in the game (these are only pure damage attacks, not damage + condition like Eviscerate).

Cleave: 6 + 26 = 32

Exec Strike: 6 + 34 = 40

Heavy Blow / Mighty Blow: 19 + 24 = 43 (35 max damage on hammers)

Galrath Slash / Final thrust: 15 + 32 = 47 (22 max damage on swords)

Penetrating Blow is the only one in which you run the possibility of doing less damage with the skill than with a normal attack. "20% armor penetration" is more or less a gimmick to get people to use the skill. If you recorded some real-world damage numbers, you'd be really disappointed.

audioaxes · Dec 28, 2005, 06:46 AM // 06:46

well penetrating is also a low addrenaline skill thats spammable as a constant damage (dont really need spikes in pve) but even then i have seen penetrating spike relatively high in pvp around 80-90ish

Grammar · Dec 28, 2005, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Hmmm, I tinkered with it some more today, and the more I tinker the more I favor Executioner's over Penetrating.

Particularly the Dismember -> Executioner's combo, which is proving to be outstanding.
Of course, replace Dismember with Eviscerate {E} if you have it, but I don't have it yet so I'm using Dismemeber at the moment.

Which brings me to my final question: Where can I cap Eviscerate?

Thanks for all the great discussion in this thread BTW, it's great to have people to bounce ideas/thoughts/questions off of.

Eonwe · Dec 28, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordMahal

And you dont use Executioners strike last you use EVISCERATE last, everybody knows that, I thought. Its a perfect killing blow.

Spike combos go Eviscerate -> Executioner's.

Yanman.be · Dec 28, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Spike combos go Eviscerate -> Executioner's.

quoted for truth...
why? deep wound ....GG

4runner · Jan 02, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

I am an axe warrior my attributes are as follows:

16 axe
11 sterntg
9 tactics

I never use Penetrating attack, because it can never hit for +40 damage like the following skills.

1.executioners( insane damage +40 constant)
2.cleave (+30 constant)
3.eviscerate (+40 constant)
4.penetrating (+18 constant) just plain sucks

These figures of course are based on personal expirence, they do not reflect an exact real world averages!!!

Now these Numbers are based on a normal attack 1st, then the attacks skills, normally i use one normal then an attack for maxium effectiveness, i could be wrong again based on my exp, as an axe warrior!!

I never ever use Penetrating, i see no need for it, and i perfer degen to armor penetration anyway!! Much more effective>>!!!

sh4ft3d · Jan 02, 2006, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Penetrating Blow is very useful in builds where you have no points to waste on strength, such as particular farming builds. The cheap adrenaline cost will always be filled by cyclone axe when aggroing lots of monsters, and the penetration is very useful at lower levels of axe mastery.
EDIT: Btw, monsters with incredibly high armor such as Wurms and Giants will be affected alot more by the Armor pen. than the extra damage. try it on the calculators