Curse

BBoy_Manchild · Dec 21, 2005, 03:25 AM // 03:25

veratas sac and blood of the master is all i need to keep my fiends alive, so i fill the other slots with spells i will actually use, why have fiends AND minions AND horrors in pve? (hopefully) you will only be using fiends

xenoranger · Dec 21, 2005, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBoy_Manchild

veratas sac and blood of the master is all i need to keep my fiends alive, so i fill the other slots with spells i will actually use, why have fiends AND minions AND horrors in pve? (hopefully) you will only be using fiends

Normally, I don't use fiends. Prefer Minions b/c the sheer number is more of a distraction to the AI and generally they target the minions before the players. But, yes, I do use fiends when I need more long range attacks. Especially if we don't have an archer.

judge1121 · Dec 21, 2005, 04:37 PM // 16:37

also it might sux to monk, but that only lets u realize the work good monks put into.
MM is good to use in some missions, mostly the long one where u fight a lot of opponents. it would still be better if u had a higher soul reaping. with animate being 15 and 25 for fiends and minions. the energy u get out of it might not be enough. either that or take blood instead and have OoB as ur elite.

xenoranger · Dec 21, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge1121

it would still be better if u had a higher soul reaping.

Higher than 8?

Honestly, Energy isn't a problem. The problem is usually management when there's 20+ on screen (recently, I've been supporting loads of minions).I did try the Blood of the Master & Verata's Sacrifice Combo. The only prob with BotM is that it fails to heal all minions. As such, you loose about 40% if the party isn't moving very quickly.

Never the less...
I've never been unappreciative of monks, but I have seen a lot of horrible monks. Monks, Mesmers, and Necros are the classes that I see misused the most.

Warriors are always played as indistructable tanks (with a few exceptions I've seen), Rangers always have pets (but no pet support skills), and Elementalists seem to prefer pyromancing and almost always play the nuker.

PLEASE NOTE: This is from what I've seen, I'm not saying everyone plays this way.

Based on my experiences, people who fail to recognize the technical aspects of their class really slow down mission progress.

BTW: If I bring a pet (Mo/R character), I always use retribution (??) so when they're attacked, they deal damage back. I also have mending (at times, but not always) so the animal doesn't die during critical points.

I'm very sure there are major flaws in this, but I seldom bring my animal anymore b/c I think the natural rituals are stronger than beast mastery.

judge1121 · Dec 22, 2005, 12:21 AM // 00:21

and like i said b4 this is pve. so we cant really do anything about the way ppl play. well since u dont need the energy then i guess it does its purpose. u dont really need to heal ur minions though unless is a real long mission and u plan to keep them

xenoranger · Dec 22, 2005, 08:51 PM // 20:51

I just like having hordes. Especially since they kill by swarming enemies. What you end up with is a large number of undead swarming enemies and overpowering them by sheer number. It's like when ants attack. 1, you can squash, but a colony... bring the bug spray b/c they'll come after you over their own dead without a second thought.

DaHun · Dec 23, 2005, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Everyone please step aside and I shall show you the 1 of the most satisfieng pure mm build i have ever used,
Remember strictly mm so dont take this to places w/o corpses lol.

Reve2uk · Dec 24, 2005, 03:37 PM // 15:37

these are my skills, dark bond gets changed depending on what i am doing

Blood 11
death 16 (a must for a MM)
Soul 7
Healing 5

also i use the colectors truchen and item, gives me 20% + 20% recharge and 20% cast

so soetimes i can cast fiend or horror striaght after

Carinae · Dec 24, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Y.T.

Not going to read back, but whoever said that you shouldn't have 2 MM's in a mission is correct. Infact, I've found it's not good to have more than 1 necro in a group. I always get someone that makes wells when minions would be more helpful or minions when wells are more helpful. It often becomes a race to see who can get whatever out quickest.

I understand what you're saying, but I want to correct one point. The strongest SF teams I have been on take 1 MM and 1 SS necro. So, two necros CAN be very good together, but they need to work together and not compete against each other.

cipherzx · Dec 25, 2005, 02:45 AM // 02:45

How do you effectivly maintain 30 -40 minions on the field? I've playing around with my MM (still new to it honestly) and i can only really maintain 10 fiends or so at a time... that's with blood of the master and heal area and verata sacrifice.

DaHun · Dec 25, 2005, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by cipherzx

How do you effectivly maintain 30 -40 minions on the field? I've playing around with my MM (still new to it honestly) and i can only really maintain 10 fiends or so at a time... that's with blood of the master and heal area and verata sacrifice.

Echo works wonders for me.

xenoranger · Dec 26, 2005, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by cipherzx

How do you effectivly maintain 30 -40 minions on the field? I've playing around with my MM (still new to it honestly) and i can only really maintain 10 fiends or so at a time... that's with blood of the master and heal area and verata sacrifice.

The key word is "MINIONS".

Animate Bone Minions
Verata's Sacrfice
Blood of the Master

With those, all you do is make sure you have a high enough level of Soul Reaping. Maybe throw in Arcane echo for additional speed.

Now, as we all know, Animate Bone Minions is 2 bone creatures for every 1 corpse. Id Est, you can build an army in no time if in an area with loads of flesh based monsters.

The casting flow works like this:

Raise until you run out of corpses
Verata's Sacrifice
Stop (so your minions gather)
Blood of the Master

If you take careful note, you can see your minions with lower health generally populate in 1 area wen you stop. They have 3 formations they'll take around you.

Circle of Protection:
All minions make a circle around you that essentially protects against an unexpected attack
Miliatary Ranks:
They line up in rows. This is usually when you have 4-15 minions.
Scatter:
This seems more of an AI glitch, but the minions just randomly scatter and take positions whereever the heck they feel like.

Now, you can command minions like hench by pinging the map. If you want them to gather in a specific area or move to a location, double ping the map. Calling out targets is another way to ensure the minions do what you want. Call out your targets when attacking, and provided there are no enemies between you and the called target, the minions will give that enemy a priority beatdown.

Now... I seem to have gotten offtrack of the question.

OK.. managing minions.
It's very draining, so patience is the key. Never cast Blood of the master twice in a row unless you're over 50% health. Also, Use Blood of the Master in conjunction with Verata's Sacrifice to keep them on the regen.

Make sure you look for the pockets of low health minions before using Blood of the master.

Make sure you have a Death of 12 or greater (otherwise your healing wont' be as effective)

That should sum it up. If you have questions, let me know. I've been doing this for a while, adn I've found that I can keep a minion alive for an entire mission. There is a lot of stoping and management.. but it works to build an army of the undead.

Twisted God · Dec 27, 2005, 11:59 PM // 23:59

my MM build consists of

1. Bone Fiend
2. Bone Horror
3. (optinal of Bone minion or deathly swarm/chill)
4. Rotting Flesh
5. Vereta Sac
6. Blood of Master (Vereta Aura in PvP)
7. (optional for dmg skills but mostly...) Vile Touch
8. Rez (rebirth in missions sig in pvp)

xenoranger · Dec 28, 2005, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twisted God

my MM build consists of

1. Bone Fiend
2. Bone Horror

OK.. I dont' want to sound insulting, but why does everyone use Horrors or Fiends?

I find that 2 minions doing 12 damage (each) every second is better than 1 Fiend or Horror doing 18 damage every second. Plus, they act as a huge meat shield to distract the enemy while the players follow and kill what's left.

I mean, no offense to those who use Horrors and Fiends, but the practice doesn't make as much sense to me. Also, if up against enemies with Verata's Gaze/Aura, a lvl 12 minion is easier to dispatch than a lvl 18 horror/fiend.

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but that's my line of thinking behind using minions as opposed to fiends or horrors. Plus, the energy is nice. You get 2 for 25. That's like paying 12.5 per minion as opposed to 15 for 1 horror or 25 for 1 fiend.

Sure, I've used Malign Intervention to get 1 Horror for 10, but that also requires Verata's Aura/Gaze to align him with you (if gaze, an extra 5 is spent, netting you 15 spent on 1 horror, so you're back to spending 15 on a horror, but you also have the bonus of the anti-healing effect on flesh based creatures).

Mainly...
it's all about minion management (the way I see it). If you can keep them healthy and not sacrifice too much... you're pretty good.

Dayala · Dec 28, 2005, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Generally,as a MM, I run:
Animate Feinds
Animate Horrors
Blood of the master
Verata's sacrifice
Well of Power
Comfort animal
Charm Animal
Rez sig/skill cap/ taste of death/ anything the party needs

Death magic: 16
Blood: 11
Soul Reaping: 9

Now- I know that a lot of people mock my pet when they see him at first, but I use it as portable well. I stole this idea from a guildie, and it works fairly well. The general idea is to use the pet as a walking corpse. With no points in Beast mastery, the pet dies fairly easily, and yes your bar will blackout for 8 seconds. So what. Generally, you already have a few minions up already, and the 8 secs is not a big deal. Then, you cast off Well of power, so that your tanks are fighting in a well, and need less focus from your monks. Cast off a few more animate skills, and then rez your pet. Again, your bar blacks out, but your team is in good shape, given that you have a well around them, a little army going, and your pet is near death.
Send your pet back in, and he will die again. EVEN if your 8 secs is up, your bar will not blackout again! So, you have a fresh well to pop off, rez the pet and repeat.
Also, pets work great in areas that give few bodies. I like the idea of a walking Well of Power at my disposal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

OK.. I dont' want to sound insulting, but why does everyone use Horrors or Fiends?

I find that 2 minions doing 12 damage (each) every second is better than 1 Fiend or Horror doing 18 damage every second. Plus, they act as a huge meat shield to distract the enemy while the players follow and kill what's left.

I mean, no offense to those who use Horrors and Fiends, but the practice doesn't make as much sense to me. Also, if up against enemies with Verata's Gaze/Aura, a lvl 12 minion is easier to dispatch than a lvl 18 horror/fiend.

Not insulting, you are asking a question. My reply:
I run a mix of both fiends and horrors, depending on the creatures you are fighting. Fiends do more damage, but have less armor that horrors. Fiends are ranged, so that helps out my warriors with less body blocking. Fiends tend to concentrate on one target, getting that monster into 'usable corpse form' faster.
Horrors have better armor and tend to attack different targets. This helps occupy the enemy mobs.

To answer your question directly, I prefer the higher level you can get from Horrors and fiends. They tend to stay alive a little longer (on their own), meaning I have to worry less about keeping them up. Granted, I run primarily in guild groups, and my monks are awesome (heal area, breeze on me for sac skills) and that helps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but that's my line of thinking behind using minions as opposed to fiends or horrors. Plus, the energy is nice. You get 2 for 25. That's like paying 12.5 per minion as opposed to 15 for 1 horror or 25 for 1 fiend.

Again, this is all personal preferance. No set mm is the 'RIGHT' way to play the game. What works great for me and my guild, may look silly to you, and vice-versa. I am rarely concerned about energy with my necro. Running well of power, and with Soul Reaping, I usually have enough energy to last any encounter.

xenoranger · Dec 28, 2005, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Hmm...
I'll have to consider that.

I have in the past used Fiends as archers. Works rather well.

Actually, I keep Spiteful Spirit or Mark of Pain equipped to speed up the corpse production. It works better (from what I've seen) than most builds I've tried b/c as they attack (SS) or are attacked (MoP), damage is dealt to nearby enemies. This makes it easier for corpse production (again... from what I've seen). I dont' have a pet (Xenobia = N/Me), so after ascending, I might have to try the portable corpse concept.

I am curious how you defend against others raising minions and such from your pet? I mean, I see Verata's Sacrifice, but no Aura/Gaze. I keep those around as a "Just in Case." I've been beaten to the punch when it comes to corpses, so I like to keep a backup plan.

My philosophy with MM is to manage your own and turn your enemy's against them.

Dayala · Dec 28, 2005, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by xenoranger

I am curious how you defend against others raising minions and such from your pet? I mean, I see Verata's Sacrifice, but no Aura/Gaze. I keep those around as a "Just in Case." I've been beaten to the punch when it comes to corpses, so I like to keep a backup plan.

This is a problem at times. However, my group will target an enemy necro first, to try and eliminate this problem. It (of course) does not always work, as there may be 2 (or more) running about but it helps.

Also, I have a wand of fastcast (10%), off hand (20%) and bloodstained boots (which makes spells that target corpses faster). So, usually I cen beat them in straight up casting.

I may have to start running Gaze with my last slot. So far, I have not run into too many problems, as I am content to wait for another body to fall if I lose a few to enemies. Again, I know my pet will fall shortly, giving me another opportunity.

xenoranger · Dec 29, 2005, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dayala

I may have to start running Gaze with my last slot. So far, I have not run into too many problems,

That's so far =p

Seriously... Wand of Fast Cast and Blood Stained boots. I have the boots, where can I get this wand of Fast cast?

Seriously though.. What is your character?
N/??

Just curious.

TGgold · Dec 29, 2005, 02:18 AM // 02:18

I think he means a wand/cane with 10% chance for faster casting and 10% chance for faster recharge.

Also, don't bloodstained boots only effect spells with cast times 5 or longer? (I heard that somewhere...which would make them useless, unless they effected the res spells)

xenoranger · Dec 29, 2005, 12:52 PM // 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGgold

Also, don't bloodstained boots only effect spells with cast times 5 or longer? (I heard that somewhere...which would make them useless, unless they effected the res spells)

Not sure... I have them. I know it makes a slight difference b/c there's always another necro that joins the group and I have to compete for corpses at times. Annoying, Yes... but with my bloodstained boots, I almost always get the corpse first (if we're using the same skill).

I think it's like Fast Casting for Mesmers. I think it's not a noticable difference, but it is there. You just get a slight bonus against others.