Curse

ElderAtronach · Jul 13, 2005, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Would it be worth it, as a pvp mesmer, to go for a complete shutdown of one person's skills? I mean for a monk, without staple skills like spammable healing or protections, they are left very vulnerable. Even an ele will be rendered next to useless when 4-5 of his skills are recharging for half a minute to a minute. However that would leave you with spells in your skill bar that you stole, which might not be much use to you either...

Well I was thinking about something like:

Me/Mo

11 Dom (+4 from equipment)
11 Healing
10 Fast Cast (+1 rune)

Signet of Humility
Arcane Echo
Echo {E}
Arcane Mimicry
Arcane Thievery
Diversion
Backfire
Restore Life

If a teammate had carried Echo as well, you could do the combo Signet of Humility -> Arcane Echo -> Echo -> Arcane Thievery -> Echo -> Arcane Thievery -> Arcane Thievery -> Arcane Mimicry -> Echo -> Diversion -> Diversion. LOL holy crap that's a hell of a combo. Which, afterwards, you have basically shut down 6 of their skills including their Elite. And if you're doing this to a monk, chances are you'll get some usefulness out of the 3 stolen spells you've acquired.

I don't know about backfire, but since it's a dom-heavy build it kinda seemed to fit in there. And fast casting 11 gives you combat medic status since you've effectively got a 5 second restore life.

Still after their monk(s) are dead what do you do? I guess backfire and steal ppl's skills? Signet of Humility would work wonders on anyone's build, but I'm wondering if the above build is skill-steal overkill...

Tengoku No Yushosha · Jul 13, 2005, 12:53 PM // 12:53

How about something to heal yourself? Just incase your getting hit?

Tindalos · Jul 13, 2005, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Things to consider in this build, I hope this gives you some ideas:

If you are taking out only 1 person, by lockdown, then you yourself have essentially been locked down. Not the best of trades especially since mesmers can shine at disrupting (not necessarily a full lockdown) multiple enemies at once. Frequently, lockdown isn't as important as disrupting the timing of a group's efforts.

The costs and casting times of the spells you're considering. If you're spending 10 seconds gearing up that many echos, and so forth, how many other spells have worn off in that time? Will you have the energy pool to support those spells? What's the recharge time on those spells and is it reasonable to use more than once in a match?

It does seem to be a bit overkill. However, sprinkling diversion around is nice. Covering backfire with Diversion can makes things interesting for the monk. Diversion is a nice skill.

It looks like a fun build, I think skill theft is a riot and echoing it is fun (heck it's how my group beat the monk in Thirsty River). Though this build might be a bit overkill.

Mitsu Bishi · Jul 13, 2005, 01:54 PM // 13:54

To steal somebody an elite can be godly at times and at least annoying at others. A lot of people build their builds around an elite skill and hence it does hurt to lose it. If you want to go the shutdown route, try Power Block - it will cancel out ALL spells related to the attribute you interrupted a spell of. Doing this to an Ele can render him useless for 15 seconds on a high Domination level. Doing it to a Monk can basically rob him off most of his healing for the same amount of time.

Ollj · Jul 13, 2005, 02:22 PM // 14:22

oooh so many enchantsment and spells you use, someone can just remove them.

arredondo · Jul 13, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Almost everything has a way to shut it down. That is never the only reason not to use a build, and its amazing how many people are quick to spread their genius when they point out a counter and offer nothing more to help.

The more pressing issue I see is energy management. You have a lot of 15E skills in there (4), two 10E skills and the cheap Echo and free Signet of Humility. However you have no means of gaining energy back (or protecting your own health from damage). You will likely find yourself quickly unable to contribute when you've used all of your abilities on your opponent(s).

First, get rid of Archane Mimicry - that only copies your teammate's elite and does not affect the opponent directly (you need to build around AM separately as its own build for success with it).

You are left to triple copy Diversion or Archane Thievery as your main setup to test. Understand that if you go with AT, you are using a lot of energy.... 15 for Archane Echo, 5 for Echo, 15 for AT, 5 for Echo, 15 again for AT, an 15 once more for AT. That's 70 energy units!

Maybe if you got a energy reducing skill from the Elementalist line you could pull it off in one swoop. You then have three stolen skills but only one disabled skill bar - yours. There's nothing left in energy to make use of all the stuff you stole; your target has a ton of energy and you don't have any. Diversion isn't even getting a look for obvious reasons... nothing left to cast it a 10 per. I will also say that the cool down for your Echos are really, really long so even with unlimited energy, the opponent would have long recovered from your steals and disables before you can copy Diversion as you proposed.

Off the top of my head, you can achieve a similar purpose, expand your usefulness to your team, add energy and health... all with less impact on your energy pool. This is not tested, I'm not saying it works well, I'm just speculating here. You can keep Archane Thievery and Signet of Humility. That's two disarmed skills right there for a total 15E with the option of using what you stole. You can keep Echo as your elite, as it is cheap to use. Apply it to Diversion instead of Archane Thievery so you are using only 25 energy for this "combo" instead of 35E.

Get rid of Archane Echo as it is too expensive for use here. Backfire is cutting it close as it is 15E, but with Diversion as your Hex remoal protector, you are able to possibly make use of it. If they have no hex removal, its likely they won't cast through BF or Diversion when they see it on them. In any case, it isn't to be used with your main setup as energy will be a problem.

Defense and health regen is poor here. You aren't making use of your Healing Prayer line enough, so get Orison of Healing and pump that stat up. You can help yourself or teammates cheaply at 5E and your Restore Life will have a greater impact.

Along wih the obvious Domination, you may want to put in some Inspiration points to get energy back. Energy Tap is the obvious choice, but as an alternative consider Enchantment Drain (enchant removal plus Energy gain) as a way of also helping your team win on the field of battle while you recharge.

Finally, you are doing absolutely no damage and have a skill slot left. Maybe with Domination pumped high (to steal with Archane Thievery and use Diversion for many seconds) you have good choices. Without hex protection and the expense on it I say no Backfire, but instead go for more energy denial with Energy Burn. With Echo in your pocket, you can copy that for up to 80 points damage each hit and a drain of up to 10x2 energy from them (when Echo'd). Any points left can go to Fast Cast. Summary:

Echo{E} - (cheap at 5E)
Archane Thievery - (35 seconds of "where'd my skill go?")
Signet of Humility - (standard 15 seconds of Elite disablement)
Diversion - (56 long seconds of enemy skill recharge)
Restore Life - (w/40% health and 71% energy)
Orison of Healing - (+50 health quickly and often)
Energy Burn - (8E burned on opponent and 80 damage)

Drain Enchantment - (net +8E with Enchant removal)
-or-
Energy Tap - (net +7E steal from opponent)

Domination - 15 (11+3+1)
Inspiration - 9 (8+1)
Fast Cast 9 - (8+1)
Healing Prayers - 9
------------------
Total used - 199 (1 left over)

Now you can actually do several things instead of merely shutting down one opponent (and yourself too, lol). You have decent energy denial skills in E.Tap and E. Burn (any of which can be Echo'd) for a total of -22E to -34E taken from them. You can mildly assist in doing damage with Echo'd Energy Burn (-80 or -160 health in about 3 seconds or less). You revive fallen foes and give mild health assistance to you and amigos with Restore Life and Orison of Healing. You regain energy as needed with E. Tap or Drain Enchant (+14E to +16E w/Echo). Plus you are casting all of this fast, paricularly the Restore Life whose 8 seconds is now just 5.4 seconds.

Of course your main role is still possible as you wanted with the minor cutbacks. You can cast Signet of Humility (stop that Elite!), Arcane Thievery, Echo, Diversion, Echo'd Diversion in one swoop. That's costing only 40E to drastically hurt four of their skills, and then you can go with energy regain/denial for his others (likely support skills, so move on to another enemy). I'd plug the Enchant Drain or Energy Tap after the first Diversion is cast, but make up your own attack pattern. Any skill you steal randomly with AT is a fun bonus. Don't use it just because however as it will cost mana. Just read the flow of battle and decide where you are most useful and what will bring the most out of Echo'ing once every 40 seconds or so.

Defense is still poor as you have nothing to ward off Hexes and Conditions. Contemplation of Purity, even with no Divine Favor points can be substituted in for whatever skill you use the least. That way you can always remove one hex and one condition cheaply (5E).

With only one Hex (Diversion) it will take a Mesmer with interrupts to stop you from doing your thing in there. You aren't using other Hexes, no Conditions, and no DoTs. You don't even have enchants on you to remove (besides the brief enchant state of Echo). This is not a common plus found in many builds.

Whatever you try, make sure to keep some of the pitfalls you made in mind. Build how you want to build, but be more versatile if you can, and avoid being left helpless with no energy when possible.

Tindalos · Jul 13, 2005, 05:20 PM // 17:20

The post by Arredondo is excellent and elaborates on the points I touched upon above. In fact, I'm going to play around with the build described and see how it works. Looks like it could be fun!

I'll note that the only change I *might* make would be to use inspired Hex rather than drain enchantment. Tends to be a bit more defensive that way. Either way looks like a fun build!

ElderAtronach · Jul 13, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Thanks for the input. This was just a purely theoretical excercise, I might go build something similar to try out in team arenas.

arredondo · Jul 13, 2005, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Yeah, Drain Enchantment is indeed the bonus skill that can be replaced (although you lose energy gain and enemy debuff in the process). I'd still say consider Contemplation of Purity however.

CoP Pros:
- It takes out a Hex and a Condition(!!!)
- It costs 5E
- It casts in less than 1/4th of a second with Fast Cast
- It recharges in five seconds
- In this build, you aren't using Enchantments so there's no CoP penalty
- Works well with no points in Divine Favor

CoP Cons:
- With no points in DF you can't get much of a health bonus from using it, but you aren't wearing Enchants anyway.

Inspired Hex Pros:
- It takes out a Hex
- It costs 5E
- You gain about 10E in this build
- It casts in less than a second with Fast Cast
- You get a copied offensive Hex to cast
- Technically no recharge for the skill itself

Inspired Hex Cons:
- Copied Hexes are only as strong as the lines you've put points into
- You have a poor chance to get a Hex in a line you are supporting
- If you have a line to support the Hex, you likely are already using it (and who Echoes Hexes?)
- You are stuck without a Hex removal for 20 seconds while your copy exists

I would consider the cheap, long lasting Hex Breaker over IH since you have plenty of Domination points to take advantage of its 45+ damage (and stances are hard to deal with). Shatter Hex may even be considered for doing 141 PBAoE damage to all nearby foes if you can get around the 15E cost (and are brave to run into melee range). Still, I think Contemplation of Purity is too cool with it's extra abilities for dealing with Conditions, its cheap cost and fast recharge.

ElderAtronach · Jul 13, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

From what I understand of contemplation of purity, you have to lose an enchantment to lose a hex and condition. Because of this I've never actually used it on my boon monk before...

arredondo · Jul 13, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Oh wow, good looking out. I don't use the monk, so I only scanned the skills when you said you were a MeMo when I picked CoP out. In that case, its stock does drop as you have to always recast useful Enchantments to access its abilities again. I should've known it was too good to be true.

Well, it wasn't officially part of my build, so the bulk of my first post is fine. As for an alternative defense skill, I'd go with Hex Breaker and hope that Conditions don't kill me. Warriors will beat up this build pretty bad and you have no interrupts for spike casting builds, but you can't have everything. If you can disable a dangerous foe early, you should be ok. Make use of what you can and switch things around as needed.

EDIT: Lol, I had NINE skills in there! I guess Enchantment Drain and Hex Breaker have to fight for space with Energy Tap. Sorry about that... I'll edit the post above to reflect this.

Cymmina · Jul 13, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Every time I have used Echo with Arcane Thievery, I always end up having AT and the Echoed AT both be the same skill. I gave up trying to use Echo and AT together, saving it for Ether Feast/Energy Tap, or some other more valuable skill.

Rajamic · Jul 14, 2005, 08:11 AM // 08:11

You could always squeeze in Blackout somewhere to use on target 2 when you are convinced target 1 is sufficiantly shut down for a while.

Sigil · Jul 14, 2005, 01:33 PM // 13:33

I think an interesting thing you could do with an 'Arcane Thief' build would be target the opposing mesmer (assuming there is one) before the monks. Hit the opposing mes with 2 or 3 arcane thieveries and with luck get 1-2 spells you can use to shut down the monks. If you steal his backfire, diversion, e-tap, power leak, etc., you get it for 35 secs and can use it effectively on the first monk you target and at the same time save your monks a headache. May be too much of a gamble for any reliable tourney build, but could be interesting.

Lets see...

Arcane echo 15 -> echo 5 -> arcane thievery 15 -> echo 5 -> thievery again 15 -> thievery the third time 15 = 70E to disable 3 skills for ~35 secs each. It's not as bad as it seems, because you can set up your first 20 in the starting gate, but you would still want some energy recovery.

So...

Me/X

Fast Cast = 11 (10+1)
Dom = 15 (11+3+1)
Insp = 11 (10+1)

Echo (E)
Arcane Echo
Arcane Thievery
Energy Tap or Drain Enchant
Power Drain
Leech Sig or Sig of Humility
2 Flex slots. (may want to throw in Diversion/Backfire or some other basic combo for guaranteed effect in case the other team has no mes)

Could also drop fast cast and throw points in illusion for any illusion skills you steal, or go Me/Mo and throw points in healing or protection and focus on monks. In fact, may be ahead to do Me/Mo because 90%+ chance there will be a healer monk you're trying to disrupt anyway and just switch target to monk if no enemy mes.

No idea whether it would be effective or not, but might be interesting to try.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 14, 2005, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Almost everything has a way to shut it down. That is never the only reason not to use a build, and its amazing how many people are quick to spread their genius when they point out a counter and offer nothing more to help...

I know EXACTLY how you feel. People do it to me all the time. Which is funny because I usually mention the counters to my own builds and people are usually just repeating me. Hmm, goes to show how smart people are eh?

I think this build can be a real ass to anyone but true, if you do this, you yourself are probably going to get skills that are nigh useless to you and your team. Just so the enemy can't do it. Also, one Rend Enchantment can rip ya a new one so perhaps it'd be best to find the necros on the enemy team and steal it!

arredondo · Jul 14, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

For Rend (or any anti-Enchant) to work, I have to be enchanted. In this build, only the Echo is an enchant and it's not exposed to be dispelled for more than a couple of seconds.

ElderAtronach · Jul 14, 2005, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Yep, and arcane thievery is not a hex so it can't be removed by smite/shatter hex.

Cymmina: damn, are you positive about that Echo'd arcane thievery? If that is true then it pretty much screws that idea...