Curse

Disposeable · Sep 27, 2005, 11:33 AM // 11:33

I usually just play a W/N axe spiker with Rend, but I wanted to try out a KD/AS W/E as I've never really played one before. I came up with this:

Hammer Mastery: 16 (12+3+1)
Strength: 9 (8+1)
Earth Magic: 10

Frenzy
Sprint
Devastating Hammer (E)
Heavy Blow
Mighty Blow
Irresistible Blow
Aftershock
Res Sig

Constructive criticism is welcome.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 27, 2005, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Ditch heavy blow for hammer bash... Both lose all adrenaline but at least bash is unconditional. Ensign showed me the light...

Dzan · Sep 27, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Yes, ditch HEavy Blow for Bash, but also I don't think 16 Hammer is the way to go. I'd stay 12 max and bring Earth up to 12. I like Bull's Strike rather than Irresistable in pvp, and also I tend to include Stoning, which while energy intensive, adds a 3rd knockdown to the chain which is often the difference betweem being able to solo a monk or letting him get a self heal off.

Zeru · Sep 27, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

You do realize that you will do far more damage putting in judges insight and not be left immobile after your spike? I've seen JI hammer criticals be larger than 10e aftershock double hits and JI triggers on every hit . Makes it seem kinda silly running aftershock, doesn't it?

Dzan · Sep 27, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

No build exists in a vaccum. In an 8 man build with 2 or 3 hammer warriors, aftershock and its AOE capabilities are much more devastating, especially in the Hall when people are packed in small areas.

mr_boo · Sep 27, 2005, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Not to mention that JI can be applied onto the W/Ele by a Smiter...one of the main reasons why I wouldn't have W/Mo running JI is simply the cast time.

NatalieD · Sep 27, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disposeable

I usually just play a W/N axe spiker with Rend, but I wanted to try out a KD/AS W/E as I've never really played one before. I came up with this:

Hammer Mastery: 16 (12+3+1)
Strength: 9 (8+1)
Earth Magic: 10

Frenzy
Sprint
Devastating Hammer (E)
Heavy Blow
Mighty Blow
Irresistible Blow
Aftershock
Res Sig

Constructive criticism is welcome.

I would try Crushing Blow instead of Mighty Blow, unless you expect to have someone else on your team applying deep wounds to your target.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 28, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Crushing Blow is probably one of the best energy skills for damage that a hammer type would wield, but if you don't have the energy due to [cough* AS DUR*], then Mighty Blow is probably all ya got...

I find AS to be pathetic vs. Earth Eles and Rangers, for obvious reasons...

Smite Hex + Holy Strike ftw!! ^_^

Brave · Sep 28, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

I'd use berserker stance for adrenaline boost... using frenzy all the time uses up the energy needed for aftershock...

Disposeable · Sep 28, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_boo

One of the main reasons why I wouldn't have W/Mo running JI is simply the cast time.

That's what put me off of the idea of JI. The extra damage is good, but a two second cast during a fight isn't ideal. I guess ideally I would go full hammer and forget about AS if I'm backed up by some decent spikers.

BTW I was thinking about a build using an elemental haft and conjure "element".
Would the extra damage (11 dmg at 10 air/water/fire) be worthwhile?

cookiehoarder · Sep 28, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

You need 12 earth.

Nexx · Sep 28, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Here's my Vanilla W/E Hammer Aftershock Build.

Devestating Hammer {Elite} | Crushing Blow | Hammer Bash | Aftershock | Berserker's Stance |[OPTION] | Sprint | Rez Signet

For the [OPTION] Slot, I used to throw some points into tactics and equip [Healing Signet] for the occasional random arenas. Now, I max out Earth at 12 and get [Armor of Earth]. Once you start playing, you're noticed that W/E are very weak against hexes and conditions... but eh. =]

As usual, equip the knockdown gloves, hammer helmet, superior vigor, absorption, hammer and strength. I usually go with all gladiator with knights boots.

EDIT: And looky, I even made it all cute and pretty with links included.

Mog · Sep 28, 2005, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Ditch heavy blow for hammer bash... Both lose all adrenaline but at least bash is unconditional. Ensign showed me the light...

Yeah, bash is unconditional, but you don't get the +30 damage from heavy blow. If he wants more KD on different targets, bash is better. If he's going straight combo damage, heavy will work much better.

The build looks good, except for Mighty blow. Getting 6A might be hard with heavy/bash being a key skill. If you really want +30 damage, Irr should fill it just fine. I'd switch it out for crushing for the +20 damage and deep wound on KD, just in case they some how survive your intital attack.

The combo you would want to go for would be Devestating->Crushing->Heavy/Bash->AS. Finsih with an Irr if needed. You can probably see why I favor Heavy over Bash as the +30 can really be a table turner. Then again, if Dev misses the whole thing dies. Although, if you miss with Devestating hammer I wouldn't really expect Bash to do much better.

Bast · Sep 29, 2005, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Devastating Hammer
Crushing Blow
Hammer Bash
Irresistable Blow
Frenzy
Sprint

This is the backbone of any hammer warrior. No conditional knockdowns, you can sorta spam Irresistable through evasion/blocking,etc. Build around this. As others have said, KD/AS is pretty inferior to other things you can do.

Heavy Blow becomes totally useless in the following situations:
1.) Devastating Hammer misses
2.) Weakness gets removed
3.) The target dies mid-combo and you want to knock someone else down with your second knockdown (Heavy Blow or Hammer Bash).

Basically, Heavy Blow is better when everything goes smoothly. When things get messed up, Heavy Blow is useless. Hammer Bash is always useful.

I make a point of using Mend Ailment when I see a teammate get knocked down with Devastating Hammer and I know the warrior is using Heavy Blow. Thanks for helping me break your KD chain! Hugs and kisses!

Red Locust · Sep 29, 2005, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Hammer Bash is pretty counterintuitive if you ask me. Yeah, you're gonna get more consistent knockdowns with hammer bash, but your damage spike will be significantly weaker. And one of the prime reasons of keeping a target knocked down is to deliver a powerful spike that can kill the target. The damage spike is the primary reason to run a hammer warrior, the knockdown is secondary.

By the way, you have a ~1s. window between devastating and crushing blow to remove weakness, and I find it hard to believe a monk can consistently remove the condition within that timeframe.

Meimei · Sep 29, 2005, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

By the way, you have a ~1s. window between devastating and crushing blow to remove weakness, and I find it hard to believe a monk can consistently remove the condition within that timeframe.

I can!! with my N/X and X/N!! i can also remove deep wound from ME/N to make their Virulence piece of crap against me to make them yelling at me!!

Bast · Sep 29, 2005, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Hammer Bash is pretty counterintuitive if you ask me. Yeah, you're gonna get more consistent knockdowns with hammer bash, but your damage spike will be significantly weaker. And one of the prime reasons of keeping a target knocked down is to deliver a powerful spike that can kill the target. The damage spike is the primary reason to run a hammer warrior, the knockdown is secondary.

By the way, you have a ~1s. window between devastating and crushing blow to remove weakness, and I find it hard to believe a monk can consistently remove the condition within that timeframe.

Actually, you're wrong twice. The reason to run a Hammer Warrior IS the knockdown. Axe spikes do about the same damage but in a much shorter timeframe and are therefore harder to defend against reactively. A Hammer knockdown chain takes at least 4 seconds to execute. A Frenzy axe spike using three skills takes a little under 3 seconds.

If you Frenzy the Hammer knockdown chain, you can get 2 hits in while they're down from Devastating Hammer and leave only about a 1/3 second window for them to get a spell off before Hammer Bash or Heavy Blow hits. I don't really feel the Hammer KD chain counts as a "spike" because it takes so long to execute. Hammer knockdown chains somewhat make up for their slowness with the lockdown and prevention the knockdowns cause.

Furthermore, you fail to take into account cross-healing and condition removal from another source. Yes, the knockdown chain will prevent the monk you're attacking from removing the weakness, but it doesn't prevent one of his allies doing it. There's about a 3 or so second window for someone else to remove the weakness before your Heavy Blow hits. That's well within the scope of even my failing reflexes.

Conclusion: Hammer Bash for the win.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 29, 2005, 03:14 PM // 15:14

The game's basic skills are some of the best if not THE best skills in the game...

For crying out loud...

Frenzy
Sprint
Hammer Bash
Exe. Strike

etc....

Presearing and Old Ascalon skills are damn good for a reason...

Hammer Bash is used for fighting enemies with intelligence...

"Guess what type of enemy I'm interested in beating?" - Ensign

Red Locust · Sep 29, 2005, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bast

Actually, you're wrong twice. The reason to run a Hammer Warrior IS the knockdown. Axe spikes do about the same damage but in a much shorter timeframe and are therefore harder to defend against reactively. A Hammer knockdown chain takes at least 4 seconds to execute. A Frenzy axe spike using three skills takes a little under 3 seconds.

If you Frenzy the Hammer knockdown chain, you can get 2 hits in while they're down from Devastating Hammer and leave only about a 1/3 second window for them to get a spell off before Hammer Bash or Heavy Blow hits. I don't really feel the Hammer KD chain counts as a "spike" because it takes so long to execute. Hammer knockdown chains somewhat make up for their slowness with the lockdown and prevention the knockdowns cause.

Furthermore, you fail to take into account cross-healing and condition removal from another source. Yes, the knockdown chain will prevent the monk you're attacking from removing the weakness, but it doesn't prevent one of his allies doing it. There's about a 3 or so second window for someone else to remove the weakness before your Heavy Blow hits. That's well within the scope of even my failing reflexes.

Conclusion: Hammer Bash for the win.

Some pretty bold statements.

No, I don't fail to take into account cross-heals/removals. The KDed monk has no chance to remove weakness, so it's obviously up to the others. 2 mend ailments (yes, there's also a deep wound on top) from 2 other monks within 3s. is uncommon, to say the least.

And axe spikes, while slightly quicker, are quite less hard hitting than hammer spikes. If your build is lacking in snares, then hammer bash might not be a bad choice, but far from this "you're wrong, hammer bash is right" stuff. I'd rather not sacrifice extra damage for a slightly better effect. If I miss devastating, it's likely I'm gonna miss most of my other attacks too, so it's gg and on to another target to rebuild adren. Whether or not I immediately get a bash knockdown and half-decent damage on that other target isn't anything too critical.

Meimei · Sep 30, 2005, 04:15 AM // 04:15

remove weakness with in 3 secs? i have never ever see that happen, failed devastating and unable to do following KD? ya it happens. axe skill deals about same dmg as hammer on soft target? i dont think so. faster speed? ya. with weaken armor, i've hit 120 with axe skill, and i've hit 165 with hammer skill. you need to compare base weapen dmg as well not just the +dmg on skill. does weaken armor effect +dmg bonus? no. does JI effect +dmg bonus? no. does critical attack effect +dmg bonus? no. only effect on base dmg. +dmg on skill is an additional dmg. but if you can only deal 10 dmg on hard target does +dmg skill effect a lot? hell ya you deal 10+42 dmg with axe. that's why axe war can kick hammer war's ass on 1v1 for faster adrenaline gain and higher +dmg skill.