Curse

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 10, 2005, 08:28 PM // 20:28

This post is for my own learning purposes but also for any and all W/N who want to see what it's like to try and get the most out of a build. These posts will all be based upon my Canthan Targe Pre-order shield. [which I still like above every other type of shield I've found] If you want to use it a bit more offensively, then switch the stats between Tactics and Strength. It is up to your discretion whether or not to bring a res signet and replace a skill.

Goal(s): multi-purpose W/N designed to be dangerous in every situation imaginable. All classes were designed to work with a teammate or 3 so never assume full self sufficiency.

Stat Spread: 10+2 Axe Mastery, 9+1 Tactics, 7+1 Strength, 10 Curses

Type I: Standard PvE farmer, works awesome in a team scenario
Role: To have the ENTIRE enemy mob jump on him, he kills them all.

Cyclone Axe
Dismember
Axe Rake
Bonetti's Defense
Victory is Mine! {E}
Plague Touch
Enfeebling Blood
Mark of Pain

No real need to spell out what this build does. With Enfeebling Blood combined with Victory is Mine! {E}, that enemy mob of 50 creatures is now doing crap damage and you've just gained all your hp and energy back. Bonetti's Defense will give you something to hide behind while Victory and Enfeebling is recycling and Mark of Pain will reduce the mob to jello in a matter of seconds. Cyclone Axe will pretty much guaruntee you can keep Bonetti's going for a long long time.

Type II: PvP Dmg/Conditioner/Disruption Blend

Swift Chop
Dismember
Axe Rake
Disrupting Chop OR Penetrating Blow
Victory is Mine! {E}
Rush (sprint for another option)
Plague Touch
Rend Enchantments

A strong blend of consistent damage lies in Penetrating Blow alongside Swift Chop. Energy is managed quite well being only 5e. skills and a good energy management elite. Rend is the bomb... ^_^ Meets all the requirements of an offensive tank with good versatility. Use Disrupting for things like Team Arena or GvG, I use Penetrating for Random since I don't have to anticipate as much there. Contains foes using a speed and snare skill. I don't need anyone telling me of the wonders of Sprint vs. Rush. I've heard them all already and this build just wasn't meant for relic running [if u want it to, then go ahead and use sprint ^_^] Running forever is good to me.

Type III: PvP Maximum Damage Output

Swift Chop
Penetrating Blow
Executioner's Strike
Thrill of Victory
Battle Rage {E}
Plague Touch
Weaken Armor
Rend Enchantments

After much testing, I've discovered this to be the most devastating dmg output a W/N can do. [if you're using 10+ strength, use Power Attack or Griphon's Sweep instead of Thrill] No need for a snare as you'll be running with this build pretty much permanently buffed if you play smart. Much weaker in terms of defense, but I said maximum damage didn't I? ^_^ By ripping off enchantments to increase damage as well as weakening armor, your crit rate will be in the upper 120s to 130s vs. a caster.

Type IV (prototype): Energy Denial/Disruption Hex Spammer?!?!

Fear Me!
Dismember
Axe Rake
Disrupting Chop
Victory is Mine! {E}
Plague Touch
Malaise
Rend Enchantments

I'm still working out the kinks in this build. One being that the dreaded 'weapon switcher' with a brain and a half will quickly switch weapons each time they near 0 with Malaise on them. Funny thing, Malaise is downright devastating to most 'standard' warriors and rangers who usually don't run around with energy upgrading hand items. The beauty of Malaise is that it can be spammed to a point. [Are you willing to run around with 6 hp degen to take out 6 of the enemy team's mana regen?] Obviously a Warrior fighting with 10 degen is going to be a REAL pain on healing both himself and his teammate monk, so using Malaise in a conservative manner, 2 minimum, 3 maximum is probably best. I had a combo with Wither {E} in there but learned through both reading and testing that Wither + Malaise is wasted energy and effort. Malaise alone is strong enough and usable enough to be VERY effective with a Warrior's capabilities. "You idiot! Where's your speed buff?!" I'm striking from a distance with Malaise about 70% of the time. Why would I care about a speed buff? Since the build lacks a speed buff, which already makes you about 40%+ less efficient vs. runners, you're going to have to work with the targets that are in arms reach. [yes let's face it, your main targets are enemy warriors... *sigh*] However, since Warriors like to cause conditions, maybe they'll turn around and try hitting you with them? [good move... lol] So basically you want to give the entire enemy team a total of 4 to 6 energy degen. [maybe 8 if you're willing to risk it in a psychotic gvg matchup] Saving up Adrenaline to surprise a caster with a Dismember Axe Rake Combo followed by repeated Fear Me! is always an option. Remember, the more you can manage your energy to spread malaise, the more remove hex that enemy's monk will have to deal with. But you're on that monk spamming fear me and Disrupting Chop right? If that monk is just running from you, then he wont' be casting anything right? ^_^

Weaknesses I've seen or have already mentioned are as follows.
Hexes...
I got a message asking me what I do about them as a W/N and I had to give the honest answer: "Ctrl+click the Hex on my display and pray my monk brought something for me..."

Conditions are of no concern unless the entire enemy team stays the hell away from you. Then you'd be in trouble. But there's a 99.999% chance the entire enemy team isn't bent on playing keep away with just you.

What I'd like is some help with that last Energy Denial build. I know it's not perfect, but that's fine because NO BUILD ever is... Thank goodness. Any thoughts or comments regarding the previous combat types are more than welcome.

If I find people mentioning weaknesses I've already stated then uh, yeah... Ignorance is bliss... ^_^

*edit*

Extra options regarding stats. You CAN go 10+2 axe, 10+1 str, 11 curses. But don't look at Victory is Mine! {E} healing power, it's an elite due to the fact that it's ENERGY is unaffected. Make note of that. Also, chuck Thrill of Victory for something strength based. Power Attack comes to mind. etc. etc. LOTS of options for this setup.

Neo-LD · Aug 10, 2005, 09:23 PM // 21:23

I like the 2nd and 3rd ones. The 4th one seems iffy. Malaise = crap cus of the focus switch trick. Rend = 15 energy? Or 10, but still it hurts.

ElderAtronach · Aug 10, 2005, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Rend is 10 energy, same as aftershock if you want to compare it like that. Equip a curse focus item if you need the energy boost temporarily.

I love Victory Is Mine, but I'm not sold on Battle Rage on the 3rd build. I would think Cleave or Eviscerate would be a better choice for your elite if you're focusing on doing pure damage, but I won't comment further since I've yet to unlock Battle Rage, actually. lol. Theorycraft only goes so far.

anti_z3r0 · Aug 10, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

Battle Rage is always underestimated by people who haven't ran it yet.

It's an insane skill for axe warriors.

Racthoh · Aug 10, 2005, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Somewhat off-topic but I have to know, what are the stats on the preorder shield?

Elythor · Aug 10, 2005, 11:53 PM // 23:53

While Plague Touch, and Rend are important skill to have....another skill you should have is Rigor Mortis. One hit and there goes Stance/Wards/Aegis/Guardian etc.

Of course, NR will kill it....but what doesn't NR kill? :P

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 11, 2005, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Elythor, since NR kills most things, I've decided against using Rigor Mortis. Better to rely on the Swift Chop than a 2nd hex that'd be chopped off. Weaken Armor is enough...

Canthan Targe (early modes)

base armor: 4
str 8: +30 hp
axe mastery 8: +2 energy
swords 8: +2 energy
Tactics 10: armor +10

Current Canthan Targe

Tactics 10: Armor 14
str 8: +30 hp
axe mastery 8: +2 energy
swords 8: +2 energy

As you can see, before they 'realigned' it. [I wouldn't call it nerf since well, it'd be broken as hell], this shield had crazy defensive capabilities. [as the armor +10 affected all around you] But they had to make it fair... ^_^

Cleave < Executioner's Strike when you're under Battle Rage {E}. Exe. Strike uses Cleave style Adrenaline at more damage, full run buff, and double adrenaline for ALL your attacks. [which means when you use an adrenal skill, all your other skills gain ONE strike instead of lose one, so Adrenaline spam becomes obscene.]

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 11, 2005, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I like the 2nd and 3rd ones. The 4th one seems iffy. Malaise = crap cus of the focus switch trick. Rend = 15 energy? Or 10, but still it hurts.

Ah, but I did say you can cast it on multiple targets. You will be running around with 4+ hp degen but hey, they've got to deal with it on multiple teammates.

Just cause your monk can chuck it doesn't mean that ranger and that warrior can do it so easily. But yeah, I'm still trying to figure out the kinks to it. That 4th prototype has a nasty potential if only I can piece together the right skills for it.

Thus far, if I can disrupting Chop the enemy monk's Remove/Convert Hex, then I can easily keep multiple low energy builds very low...

However, again, still working on it somehow.

Jake · Aug 11, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Not really sold on that maximum damage output build either...

Thrill of victory?? What do you have points in tactics for a maximum damage output build if it's the only tactics skill you're using? Power attack/griff's might be ok but I foresee energy issues. I'm not buying a maximum damage build without 16 in your weapon mastery either myself.

I also don't see a point in rend in a maximum dps build, rend has a huge recast delay, having to use it means your battle rage is now gone. Most of the time the thing hampering your dps will be guardian which can be spammed basically.. Rend does nothing against stances or wards either. It's basically only there for some wierd buff like armor of earth.. which isn't really used that much imo to warrant bringing rend. Rend is definately nice for support.. but not maximum damage.

I'm not buying battle rage either, especially on a curser... you wanna recast your curse, now you have to build up your adrenaline again, even with your wand trick it's still a grace period of ~5-8 seconds to shoot the wand 4 times.

I like the malaise idea though.. but maybe try looking into another elite.. ViM doesn't seem like the right choice for the job to me with that build.. I'll try messing with it.

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 11, 2005, 12:38 PM // 12:38

+16 weapon mastery means you're dead in 4 hits or less from a smart dmg spiker.

Yes, it happens...

What's more, Rend allows you to NOT get ripped in half by Shield of Judgement {E} which obviously is the maximum damage build's worst enemy (or any warrior for that matter).

If they're using blocking techniques, striking and spamming with swift chop is really all you need. You aren't alone in damage but I find it more appealing than Rigor Mortis since with RM, they HAVE to use a stance/ward etc. for it to be of use. Swift Chop hurts with or without a stance/enchant/ward.

edit*

My stats are different from the norm due to the shield but when I strike someone in the back with a weaken armor, the Thrill of Victory crits for 130+. The swift chop is already about 90 on a crit, but for some odd reason, Exe. Strike to the spine only does about 110 for me on a weaken armor on a caster crit.

Jake · Aug 11, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

err... yeah.... great reason not to use a superior rune...

My counter for shield of judgement is switching targets, shrug. There are alot of annoying smiters in random arenas if you just ignore them and kill off the rest of his team then it's usually not even a big deal.

Rend is useful for a few more things like prot spirit/bond but eh... I still don't see how you're gonna be using rend reactionary based and also weaken with battle rage as your elite, sorry but to me BR is just bad.

If you're just gonna end up spamming swift chop most of the time what's the point of BR? Use warrior's endurance and spam all energy attack skills with a zealous hilt instead...

Meh.. just try this simple build out to see the kinda dps a warrior is capable of pulling out, I don't think you've really seen just how much dps a warrior is capable of doing.. just my opinion don't get offended please.

W/R

12+4 Axe Mastery
9+1 Strength
9 Beastmastery

Eviscerate
Axe Rake
Executioner's Strike
Disrupting Chop (put in swift chop if you want I guess... or maybe penetrating blow.. but I really am not a fan of pen blow, I think it's very overrated, and it doesn't even stack with str armor penetration but it's still ok for a little damage boost...)
Tiger's Fury
For Great Justice!
Sprint
Res Sig

At the start use sprint and FGJ once you get near your target, get enough adrenaline for an eviscerate, hit them with it + axe rake to cripple, then use tiger's fury and make use of the remaining time on FGJ to go to town. If you're really antsy about blind then I guess take out FGJ for antidote sig but I rely on my monks. No FGJ means a pretty large plummet in dps. Yes there are a lot of counters but I think this build is a good measuring stick to compare how much dps your warrior is capable of putting out when you start doing wacky builds that take care of very picky situations so that you don't fall too far behind... Wow this game needs a way to parse.

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 11, 2005, 09:38 PM // 21:38

FGJ and Tiger's Fury take waayy too much energy to be efficient in the slightest... For a warrior without Glad armor.

The reason Swift Chop is in there with Battle Rage is to make the adrenaline come FASTER.

[when u use an adrenal skill, all ur skills are drained by one]

With Swift Chop [which is unblockable/dodgable], you can super charge all your adrenal skills at once and very quickly than if you had just 4 adrenal skills. [that and being blocked/dodged sux0rs]

Shayul · Aug 11, 2005, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Hey Yukito.

I've been watching you posting about the W/N for awhile, and I have to say that you have pretty good ideas. I'm almost tempted to make one, just so I can see how I work it out. Somehow the idea of a Warrior running around with curses appeals to me. =P

Keep up the great work, lol.

Jake · Aug 11, 2005, 10:14 PM // 22:14

err.. I assume you're using the standard +skill helmet, knights boots, rest gladiator's build? The energy consumption is fine I've used the build a lot. Just use the damn build and I want to see if you come close to the dps it puts out with your "maximum damage" builds, my opinion says it's not even close. Basically any BR build for that matter.

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 12, 2005, 12:06 AM // 00:06

maximum damage build?

Your proposition in terms of equipment means you're also eating maximum damage. [I'll NEVAR sacrifice hp for power! I've tried it once and once was all I needed and died in 3 seconds due to stupid DoT!]

Frenzy into sprint can't match battle Rage in terms of efficiency. I've played more smart people than idiots who know to run once you start a frenzied chain of special adrenaline attacks.

I'll try your build, I have all those skills and the ranger option to go W/R, even for just a moment.

Let me try the build out, I'll give it 25 random fights and 5 arena, I don't have all year to test but I think that's a good enough reason to try it.

I won't change my gear though, no money to...

If I run into smart people in Team PvP [which is a fair test], I fear the build will fail. Switching targets means you're not in control of the fight. THEY are... Which means you're losing...

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 12, 2005, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Ok, ran some tests and lots of dying ensued...

For both my own high dmg build and your warrior ranger build.

In Random Arena, both builds fared much the same way, depending on who's on the enemy's team. If the enemy had Nature's Renewal or Remove Hex, the W/R would be stronger, however if they didn't, the W/N with Weaken Armor blasted the damage out of the water... Both builds were given 15 tries in Random arena... [was the first to die in every fight, but I like rushing and I killed 2 enemies before I died]

In Team Arena, where enemies are organized and generally smarter, the W/R build falls splat... Too many conditions to deal with. Even with the Antidote Signet, Weakness is more than enough to pretty much put me away for 15s. or so. Even with monk help, the enemy team had a much easier time resisting and any Shield of Judgement monks owned the poor W/R and by not attacking him, he apparently would just nail his teammates with Zealot's Fire and Balthasar's Aura. Damn smiters... VERY annoying. W/N which controlled the fight with Plague Touch forced a lot of condition removal on to them. Funny thing, I entered and fought the same smiter monk twice and blammo... He's like "W/N?". Ripped his ass in half with Weaken and Rend...

If Nature's is up, then yes, the W/R would fare better, but if conditions are flying and enemy has no hex removal [which happens], and enchants are up, more options to the W/N...

Weaken Armor was probably the deciding factor for both builds... If it sticks, death comes quickly. If it didn't, Tiger's Fury would work. Oddly enough, with your high energy skill build and no energy management, it seemed to work alright for the first few seconds...

Regarding option capability. I'd bet my life savings on a W/N's capability to adapt to a situation far better than any W/R. As far as damage goes, the W/N would be on par with W/R, but in terms of being versatile and overall more useful and fun, W/N all the way...

Jake · Aug 12, 2005, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Why do you give a shit about dying? Of course in random arena you got all the ranger scrubs spamming poison arrow, random bullshit happens and you don't even have a monk to back you up, that's not a damn test. Plague touch is AMAZING in random arena, it is worthless in 8v8 you don't need that shit. When I said test I mean just run it enough till you run into a team that ignores you while you get to have fun with the monk to see the damage potential.

You want option capability? That's great, W/N is amazing for the "SELF SUFFICIENT WARRIOR". Who is the better team player and who does more damage with support from a couple of teammates? The answer should be obvious. If you're after being self sufficient because you can't rely on teammates in random arena then that's fine, you just have to sacrifice potential dps in order to get it. That's the whole point of what I was saying, I said use W/R to show the damage potential a warrior has, it's a very simple build and by no means complex, but if everything goes ok, the warrior has insane damage output and I wanted you to use it as an example when you're making your odd builds to not stray so far off that your dps is hindered greatly.

If you care too much about being self sufficient, you're basically just a W/Mo tank in disguise.

Weaken armor is very nice and all I agree, but once again, I don't see how it mixes with battle rage and plague touch. Then again, weaken armor being used by a teammate necro instead of you now who's dominating the damage charts? That's the thing about curses, before I got the game I took a look at the skill sets and was like, damn I want to be a W/N using curses they set up some nice options. But then I got the game and realized wow these are all hexes that a caster necro can just do for me instead, I better look into other subclasses in order to find the maximum damage potential.

If you really want to be versatile, why not get rid of the main counter to warriors that your teammates can't help you with much? Hexes. Conditions are so easily countered it's unbelievable. I was even screwing around on a monk and got concussion shotted then just proceeded to divine boon --> contemplation of purity that in less than 2 seconds so not even daze is safe. There's too many elites/spells that completely get rid of conditions you don't need plague touch in a team imo. But hexes on the other hand, only convert hexes is the mass hex removal skill for the most part other than purge signet or contemplation to a lesser extent.

My W/Me looked somethin like this.. not really optimized but eh.. I was just using imagined burden since I needed a snare in order to keep up with my target since I was using hammers and my energy couldn't really keep up... maybe sword/axe would be better though I guess for a hex breaker build.

Devastating hammer
heavy blow
crushing blow
irresistable blow
frenzy
hex breaker
imagined burden
res sig

At least with hex breaker you have basically the perfect stance to cancel out of frenzy with since they're both 5 energy and refresh so fast. I also recall trying some dumb shit with flourish since I can't use warrior's endurance and hex breaker at the same time but I don't really remember it.

I'd take a hex breaker build with evasion/block piercing attacks anyday over a plague touch build myself in order to be the "self sufficient warrior" and let the monks take care of the conditions which they do so easily.

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 12, 2005, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Plague Touch isn't for self-sufficiency. It's for damaging my enemies. Where do you come up with this stuff?

I WAS in team arena relying on monks with the W/R. Self sufficiency to reduce my dps? Last I remember, when weakness and blind are on you and your monk is kinda busy healing your softer teammates, your dps ain't crap...

Dumping conditions on others is NOT being self-sufficient. Something to remember, your dps is down the crapper unless your monks are only paying attention to you because let's face it, to ignore a warrior, you only need to dump 1 hex/condition and he's out. A Warrior without any condition/hex lowering his dps WILL get nailed by one 100% of the time by people with brains.

My damage going down? No build you've got can match a Battle Rage type with Weaken Armor. If we were to analyze damage in a [normalized] fight where we don't have to speak of counters. I'd bet that the Weaken Armor Exe Strike spammer will outdamage anything you may have easily.

edit*
speaking of teamwork, Weaken Armor allows my fellow rangers and warriors extra damage on my victim. Plague Touch ensures that my monk won't care or need to care if I have a condition. From what I've both read and experienced, Plague Touch will never lower your dps in the slightest. If anything, it keeps it high by removing weakness and blind from yourself AND moving poison and bleeding and disease to a shmuck. Our definition of helping teammates must be very different...

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 12, 2005, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

At least with hex breaker you have basically the perfect stance to cancel out of frenzy with since they're both 5 energy and refresh so fast. I also recall trying some dumb shit with flourish since I can't use warrior's endurance and hex breaker at the same time but I don't really remember it.

I'd take a hex breaker build with evasion/block piercing attacks anyday over a plague touch build myself in order to be the "self sufficient warrior" and let the monks take care of the conditions which they do so easily.

Hex Breaker vs. Plague Touch. I know both skills well. What I don't get is how you intend to use it with frenzy in there. Cancel them out? (that's kind of a counter measure to yourself there because having 2 stances in your skillbar means you're only using half of them half the time...) If the enemy multi-spams you during frenzy [hey, it happens], the dmg is probably worse. Also, how does hex breaker add to your dps? I can imagine it stopping things like Faintheartedness, but outside of stopping it, how does it 'harm' your enemies? The damage it does is laughable at best. At least Plague can dump 10pips of degen onto someone very quickly. Not something to be ignored, gotta do mass condition removal there. Hex Breaker only stops one, when 4 more get dumped on you, only one of those 4 will be stopped.

If you ONLY want pure damage output, I think the true damage ceiling would lie in the hands of the W/E. Let's face it, who the hell can compete with the melee character combining with the most damaging character in the game? Aside from Primary Eles of course.

As far as versatility goes, I've yet to be convinced that any other class can match the swiss-army knife nature of the W/N.

Nightwish · Aug 12, 2005, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Playing warrior is a frusfrating game for me. In pvp, the 1st target use ward, ok...i switch target. Oh no, the 2nd target has stances. Alright, next one then..omg..my warrior got blinded. OR maybe empathy, soothing image, imagined burden, weakness, price of failure ^^ My warrior is pathetic if going full damage type. With condition/hex removals, I can at least annoy my opponents slightly longer =/