Curse

AtomicMew · Sep 15, 2005, 02:34 PM // 14:34

How exactly does this work? How would you get people to actually kill your pet? Wouldn't people just ignore

smurfhunter · Sep 15, 2005, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

How exactly does this work? How would you get people to actually kill your pet? Wouldn't people just ignore

you sit in a ball and about 7 pets run at you. i just kill them and watch all the w/r's go "score!". ofcourse pets are really bugged sometimes and get confused and start running all over the place. so its not really gonna work all the time unless you like bring a longbow and start shooting someone. and anyway the ghost totally owns those pets

Lord Tekster · Sep 15, 2005, 02:42 PM // 14:42

good build is 8 ne/m or m/ne using life transfer, life siphon and conjure phant on each warrior/r self healing and kills pretty fast if they dont have many monks. Also since the whole team uses the same build they can go for seperate targets e.g. player 1 attacks opposing player 1 and so forth. Without hex removals that team is going to be dead fairly quickly

smurfhunter · Sep 15, 2005, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Tekster

good build is 8 ne/m or m/ne using life transfer, life siphon and conjure phant on each warrior/r self healing and kills pretty fast if they dont have many monks. Also since the whole team uses the same build they can go for seperate targets e.g. player 1 attacks opposing player 1 and so forth. Without hex removals that team is going to be dead fairly quickly

i seriously doubt 10 pips of regen will save you from an axe warrior attacking with a 33% or 66% increase. have you tried this or is it just an idea?

Zeru · Sep 15, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

the big question is, what do you do if the entire team is in a ball and wont leave it? you just stand around talking? eventually someone has to run in, and especially in an altar map its just funny..

um... if the pets die.. it doesnt do a thing. 6 pips of regen, but theyre taking about 22 a second from BA, 37 every like 1.__ seconds from zealots, 60 every 3 seconds from meteor shower, and about 120 everytime someone dies from putrid. if you think that BA doesnt hit everyone, think again. it does unless you have the some of the most seriously incompetent players balling up. why attack someone who has seed on him? asking me? the IWAY teams always go for their opposite number, and if its a monk they generally dont switch just because of seed. not to mention the fire ele usually takes things like phoenix and flameburst. that adds alot.

and no, necros are not the first down when playing against IWAY teams. when sitting in a ball its not that easy to kill the necro when hes standing some distance away spamming orders. thats why you *try* to have the mesmer go for him, which works like 70% of the time, and fails all the time when theres more than one.

you guys should seriously go into tombs and ask anyone in a decent team what they think of an IWAY team... 99% of the people go "free fame". these IWAY builds are ridiculously bad. you wont roll over anything with it.

and FYI, in altar maps, the reason IWAY teams lose isnt totaly based on the fact that they cant prot their ghost. take a 3 way HoH for example. ghost reses all the time, so you might as well just leave him at the start if your an IWAY. question is, if these builds are so strong, why dont they just run in at 2:00 and kil everyone then bring their ghost? thing is, they cant kill anyone. and theyre all bunched up on the altar. altar maps like broken tower and the hoh are really no different from a 1-1 other than the timer (for iways). its the courtyard map that stinks for them because they need to keep someone (the priest) alive to res the ghost, you cant rely on an orb/spawn point.

i seriously thing like 99% of the people who post pro-iway comments are just out of touch/havent played gw recently. GO PLAY THE GAME, then talk. iway builds are laughed at now, you only see these ppl going "rank 2 w/r with a pet LF iway team, i only have ts!!11" and the guys name is like "avenge you i will"

its like the old spike teams. which reminds me, i actually got owned by a spike team lol. it was some crazy guild using it. it was sad.

...

This just shows you aren't reading what anyone's saying. Quit trolling cause that's all this is.

This isn't about bad teams. This isn't about the scrubs who make groups based on rank. You're the only one talking about IWAY played by the masses, aka the bad people, who would lose no matter what they ran. Nobody else here is.

Here's what happens when teams ball up vs us:
-We stand back and pummel away with some ranged weapon to gain adrenaline.
-Fear me spam comes.
-They have 0 energy and stay at 0, even the ether renewal eles, and we chop them up when the enchants are down with the 50% damage increase from IWAY thanks to smiting killing the pets. Signet of Devotion won't stop 7 buffed wars.

We're not near the pets, no putrid, sorry. Because you're stuck in a ball you cannot kill anyone who runs thus without a good ranged spike, which you don't have because you're pbaoe heavy, you can't kill anybody.

That's what staying in a ball accomplishes.

Like Pharalon said the key to IWAY is good player skill. A good build isn't too hard to figure out, but the execution is what will decide the outcome.

I don't care what the average 'decent' team thinks of bad IWAY. They'll lose to good IWAY if they don't run the proper counters (degen/hexes). The only places where a well run IWAY build can lose to non-optimal counters is in courtyard (have to kill both teams offense before you bring the hero) and the hall (same reason). So in other words, in 1v1 any standard stuff will get owned. We aren't out of touch with the game, we're talking about the build we ran and was very successful at any 1v1 map.

Oh and by the way, spike is actually very powerful and can beat up smite teams with ease since you just keep ganking the eles and their support till they can't use any more resses. The beauty of well executed spike is that it makes non-spellbreaker monks useless. They can't keep up with IWAY teams though. Too weak to energy denial and the res sigs will allow them to last long enough.

justinkim · Sep 15, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

we played scarred earth map in tombs and we killed a iway team by balling up under the bridge, and right after killed another iway team that was waiting outside by balling up again.

but yes, a good iway team will prolly know how to counter the ball up and have fear me and other skills

Hanuman li Tosh · Sep 15, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jah

I was just wondering if there is anyone out there that would like to share a good tombs group build for defeating an IWAY group.

I been trying to think up some ideas, but have been fairly unsuccessful.

fight fire with fire. first, im only posting our build to help ppl out. it was being copied the first day we made it so i might as well post it.

make 2 w/r with the IWAY. make sure the pets have 0 in mastery. run double smite off off the warriors. run a healing ball/whatever 2 healers and a prot, make sure you bring martyr. all 3 monks bring ageis, 7 seconds minimum so it can stay up. have a necro for the last character and go 16 death/12 inspiration. run inspred hex/inspired enchantment/drain enchantment/putrid/suffering/profane/tainted/rez sig.

beat them to the punch. if they have 2-3 pets they want you to kill them so they can do IWAY. ablige them and drop one right away. as soon as one goes down putrid so they cant put up a well. then next suffering, then profane. if you notice those 3 spells are in order of casting time. if you dont beat them to the corpse GG yourself. spam tainted the whole time but stay on leaders taget and strip all the enchanments. try to steal tainted from their necro if he has it and double spam that, they wont be able to get rid of the disease unless they martyr.

Tactical-Dillusions · Sep 15, 2005, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Shield of judgement, aegis, shield of deflection, price of failure, spirit shackles and mind whack?

I've never seen an IWAY group but being a ranger myself, i would say those rank amongst my most hated skills.

smurfhunter · Sep 15, 2005, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

...

This just shows you aren't reading what anyone's saying. Quit trolling cause that's all this is.

This isn't about bad teams. This isn't about the scrubs who make groups based on rank. You're the only one talking about IWAY played by the masses, aka the bad people, who would lose no matter what they ran. Nobody else here is.

Here's what happens when teams ball up vs us:
-We stand back and pummel away with some ranged weapon to gain adrenaline.
-Fear me spam comes.
-They have 0 energy and stay at 0, even the ether renewal eles, and we chop them up when the enchants are down with the 50% damage increase from IWAY thanks to smiting killing the pets. Signet of Devotion won't stop 7 buffed wars.

We're not near the pets, no putrid, sorry. Because you're stuck in a ball you cannot kill anyone who runs thus without a good ranged spike, which you don't have because you're pbaoe heavy, you can't kill anybody.

That's what staying in a ball accomplishes.

Like Pharalon said the key to IWAY is good player skill. A good build isn't too hard to figure out, but the execution is what will decide the outcome.

I don't care what the average 'decent' team thinks of bad IWAY. They'll lose to good IWAY if they don't run the proper counters (degen/hexes). The only places where a well run IWAY build can lose to non-optimal counters is in courtyard (have to kill both teams offense before you bring the hero) and the hall (same reason). So in other words, in 1v1 any standard stuff will get owned. We aren't out of touch with the game, we're talking about the build we ran and was very successful at any 1v1 map.

Oh and by the way, spike is actually very powerful and can beat up smite teams with ease since you just keep ganking the eles and their support till they can't use any more resses. The beauty of well executed spike is that it makes non-spellbreaker monks useless. They can't keep up with IWAY teams though. Too weak to energy denial and the res sigs will allow them to last long enough.

you just say the same thing over and over. seriously. instead of taking a crappy build and working really hard to make it work, find another build and stop arguing. this is pointless.

entropy · Sep 15, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26

It isn't hard to make the IWAY build work. Just get some good people you know and get them to come with you and do it. Smurf just stop with the idiotic comments. Its not a bad build. You just have never come across a good group. So what it works for some people despite what you think or people would never run it. Aegis i see very commonly and some people I believe echo it. It still is not hard to kill anyone. This is a trick build and being so they are tricky to run. So whenever you slaughter a W/R team say w/e you like but ill keep running and keep getting to HoH

smurfhunter · Sep 15, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04

wow i was reading your posts and.. im convinced! IWAY is such an awesome build, its like totally awesome. yknow, you should all go into the halls on IWAY builds

that would be so good, you can hold the hall nonstop with all IWAY builds and kick out the dum smiters and rangers

so how about... around 11 pm eastern, everyone here gets on an IWAY team and hold that hall until about 4 am. we can show those dum pRp and KI noobs whos who with IWAY holding the hall for about 5 hours

remember, about 11pm (eastern) start a massive amount of IWAY groups!

UberRusty · Sep 15, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Er, referring to the intention of the topic.

Use any combination of these or a single tactic to stop IWAY groups.

1) Healing Ball, then AoE damage works well.

2) Multiple anti-melee skills.

3) Target Necro.

4) Avoid killing pets.

5) Anti-aldrenaline skills also help. Which is basically point 2)

Rey Lentless · Sep 15, 2005, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Hey, I'm not going to argue that you've probably beaten bad players.

Sure, the necro will gain energy from the dead pets when they die, but will that matter? Is he the person that's going to keep his team alive? No. Unreliable energy gain isn't going to help you when you have roughly -25 to -30 pips of energy regen from 7 warriors pumping out fear me's with 33% increased attack speed and dark fury.

You know those bad players I mentioned before? Those are the players using Tiger's Fury in their IWAY builds. Go figure.

Saying that a build is bad because you've beaten bad players using bad versions of it along with bad strategy doesn't really justify anything at all.

I've yet to see fear me used in an IWAY. While I've only seen one iway with IQ people in it, it was a hammer build without fear me.. was in the hall, and you didn't win.

If you're using frenzy, then the aoe would really really destroy the team. I'm sorry, but between the blackouts, frenzy, and the aoe.. your version of the good iway would drop quicker than the bad one against a ball.

I think iway's good enough to be put on a bar, but I don't think it can be the basis of the build. The easiest counter is the ball, so the iway team has to have counters to that (it's own aoe, 2 necros with profane, etc).

If you have a fear me team running with iway and frenzy, maybe you can prove me wrong, but I've yet to see it.. and I seriously doubt it would touch a ball.

I've only seen one good iway team, and that was the guild that started it apparently (the transformers). They had their own ball counters (like an aoe earth ele, two necros) and they did beat our ball.

While you say we've seen a bunch of bad iways, I can say you must have seen a bunch of bad balls. Any group with 7 w/r's is going to be bashed IMO, and in my experience has by our ball. The mesmer is on the support, and the warriors have two choices.. stare at the ball, or come get slaughtered by it.

I have no doubt that IQ can run a significantly better iway group than almost all the crap iway teams we've come up against in the tombs, but until I see it.. it's just a theory that I don't agree with.

smurfhunter · Sep 15, 2005, 09:13 PM // 21:13

nononono everyone please run iway at 11 pm.. dont jinx it rey... and remember int. dis 1

(cmon mara isnt THAT bad lol - hes a dam fine mesmer

)

Ensign · Sep 15, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

the big question is, what do you do if the entire team is in a ball and wont leave it?

That's what most teams do, so we're pretty used to breaking balls with IWAY now. Since I don't expect any random pug to follow this, I'll spell it out.

First thing you do is send your pets in at long range. Sometimes a group will kill them, sometimes they won't. It really doesn't matter, they're just there to make a mess of things. After that you test their defenses. Do they have Tainted up? Putrids? Traps? Smiting? Some teams don't have the tools to ball up with, and if that's the case you just run over them anyway.

If they do have the tools you have to go into Fear Me mode. That means you all pull out your Wands, Staves, or Bows, and start sniping at people in the ball from outside of melee range but within Fear Me range - it does have a ward-sized radius, after all. It doesn't take very long to devastate the ball's energy, and a ball with no energy can't use Aegis, Smiting, or the other things that give you trouble. Once they're out, you run in, gank their Necro, repeatedly if neccessary, and mop up.

The pet corpses you have to deal with as well. If it's a map without any auto-res, you simply start running in and out to draw out corpse exploitation skills until they run out of corpses. They don't have any advantage until they use them, after all, so force them out. Usually takes a few minutes to run them out of corpses. If it's a map with auto-res, you simply do the Fear Me anti-ball maneuver until the res mark, then the pets res, and you go smash them.

Of course that's the textbook case. In reality, they usually start running like hell once they've been devastated by Fear Me and the Necros start dropping, and they're left playing as though they never balled up in the first place, except they have no energy to start with. It isn't pretty.

---

Now in fairness, we're the only IWAY team that I know of that can break a decent ball. I'm sure that most IWAY teams run into those balls and die a horrible, well deserved death. To that extent, I agree with you that most IWAY builds are bad.

I don't like seeing that used to dismiss the entire build concept, however. In particular, when the most common counter is something that, in my opinion, allows a *good* IWAY build to operate from a position of strength. Balling up against most IWAY teams will beat them, sure, but if you try and ball up against our IWAY team, *YOU WILL LOSE*, no matter what you're running.

So in that, it does come down to a matter of play skill and most people not knowing what they're doing.

What does beat good IWAY? A selection of good degen, power AoE hexing, liberal use of Aegis, a sprinking of snares, and tight play. Learning how to mitigate their DPS by running is key, and you need to just chew through their weak defenses. Good field awareness is also important, because while you can't ball up, spreading out too much is also certain death - IWAY exploits mismatches viciously, and dividing up your team gives them free kills that'll turn the game into a rout.

The relative simplicity of the build makes it a popular build for your average PUG - the difficulty of holding the HoH with it makes it less popular with more organized groups. I'll repeat that for emphesis - IWAY sucks balls at dais, and will rarely if ever win in the HoH unless a team plays kingmaker for it. It is a devastatingly good build for relic runs however, and is something you should underestimate in a 1v1 situation at your own risk. If you don't have any expectation of winning the hall, I think it's one of the best builds available.

Peace,
-CxE

smurfhunter · Sep 15, 2005, 10:41 PM // 22:41

id quote ensign but its so long itl just take up space. so this is @ ensign:

if you start talking experienced, coordinated IWAY builds, theres no point in comparing that to a disorganized ball. so im going to assume the ball has some basic skills, like the ability to *move while in a ball*, something that isnt as easy as it sounds (lol).

you can screw over 'fear me-ing' like that by simply running up as a ball to the nearest warrior clump using fear me and eliminate them, something that really isnt hard. rinse and repeat. in your fear me build you are assuming the ball will just sit there like a lump and watch the energy fall.

now duh i would probably lose to a group like that, my group isnt the best coordinated group and if we tried moving as a ball we would all end up scattered in some kind of well. but im just saying, since you are comparing a _good_ iway team to a ball, it only makes sense to assume the ball is _good_ too.

the main point everyone is trying to make is that good defense > good offense. 7 w/r and a necro is intensely offensive. if the ball attacks, the warriors lose. your point is that the warriors can try and weaken the balls defenses before attacking, but your team still has 0 defense. i just dont see this winning in the hoh, go use fear me and the ghost and see if he can cast claim resource at 0 energy.

oh and remind me to use soothing images next time, that fear me at a distance thing scared me

all in all, good ball > good iway. i have yet to see a good iway tho.

blah you edited it. i must have good timing or something. you already mentioned it has a 0% chance of winning the hall unless some retarded glitch happened and your ghost grows wings and flies. (something that actualy happened to me

)

and i disagree completely that its the best build for a 1-1. if you want 1-1 strategies go gvg-ing. tombs, and more specifically, the hall, isnt a 1-1. why would you want to win in the halls (before hoh) repeatedly? fame? i stopped caring when i hit rank 6... rank 9 is ridiculous, and rank 12 is obscene. i want my deer back :*(

the more i think about it the more i like it... next time i see an iway ima try this: get everyone into a ball, then do the same thing the old spikes used to do: running chain ftw! its not a running chain but same idea. run right into the warriors/pets, get as close as possible to each other and start aoeing. if the warriors run im going to laugh but sadly thats probably the best way to counter this...

Pharalon · Sep 15, 2005, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

you can screw over 'fear me-ing' like that by simply running up as a ball to the nearest warrior clump using fear me and eliminate them, something that really isnt hard. rinse and repeat. in your fear me build you are assuming the ball will just sit there like a lump and watch the energy fall.

So you're a ball, moving as one, eliminating warriors with likely multiple speed buffs available one by one. Right. *omg, that entire ball is running straight at me, I better stand here and die like a nub* As I said, retreating is essential if you're running with no monk support. You've got 8 characters geared for damage, and that gives you leeway to pull out and have a rest when you get condition/hex stacked. More often than not you'll get lucky and have a nub (or a ball of nubs) try and chase you down, which is just easy kills.

cookiehoarder · Sep 15, 2005, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenny

Ya it is important to assassinate their necro as Atronach mentioned. Then off to the warriors.
Although quite the opposite of what Atronach and others say, my guild prefers to AoE (Offensive and Defensive) them all! Warriors and pets, no survivors. Those pets are probably going to die anyways, might as well get them now instead of taking the hassle to pick them off warriors one by one. This strategy has mowed down every pet build we've ran into. The exceptions being a couple great guilds that *gasp* had a good IWAY build.

Some counters that work quite well but hardly all of them:

- Heal Ball + Aegis (Group up together and cast healing seed on whoever is getting hit. Aegis to make them miss more.)
- Shadow of Fear (AoE 50% Reduced Attack Speed)
- Dust Trap (AoE Blind)
- Ward Against Melee
- Spiteful Spirit (AoE Damage whenever target attacks and uses skills)
- Much more

Maelstrom ftw. He has the best counters for it though. Earth spike works wonders as mentioned above by someone. IWAY is actually a terrible build. There have been a few modifications but I haven't been tricked by them twice.

Ensign · Sep 16, 2005, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

if you start talking experienced, coordinated IWAY builds, theres no point in comparing that to a disorganized ball.

I think that you're not understanding *why* balls are good against most IWAY builds, because it really gets to the crux of the matter. IWAY is a mobile build. The Warriors can operate independently with decent survivability, and are prepared to run around chasing people while still being effective. I think this is straightforward to see - you have to stop a bit to attack, but you have speed buffs to catch right back up, and caster classes have to stand still for much longer periods of time if they want to be effective. It's what makes IWAY a solid relic build - sure, you can't run the relic effectively because you can't defend a runner, but they can't afford to defend their ghostly and take out your ghostly and run a relic and stop your runner without creating a bunch of ugly mismatches where you just slaughter them.

Anyway, enough on that. The reason ball is effective is because it's a solid *stationary* strategy. The goals of a ball are something like:

1) Force them to bunch up and get destroyed by stationary AoE effects. These can range from corpse exploitation skills (conveniently provided by the pile of dead pets), to smiting, to traps that they have to run into, to AoE fire nukes, to whatever else you happen to be running.

2) Take advantage of AoE protections like Healing Seed and Heal Area to give you a much better defense against their damage.

3) Allow better use of hexes and other effects that stack when the enemy is bunched up, like Shadow of Fear, Soothing Images, or Tainted Flesh.

What it is, basically, is a technique that lets you play the game on your terms - if you want to kill us, you have to attack us in our ball, and get destroyed by AoE effects of all sorts. It's your stationary defense *and extremely strong stationary offense* against their relatively poor stationary offense and defense. It's a position that they aren't build to handle well, and you get to exploit for an easy victory.

I think it's fairly straightforward to see why a 'mobile ball' doesn't make a lot of sense. First off you lose a ton of the advantages that made the ball good in the first place. You aren't standing on corpses anymore so the *enormous* strength of a putrid / well necro is neutralized. You can't run them through traps when you're running after them. They aren't exactly standing in Meteor Showers, and Smiting is neutralized unless you're running after them full speed - and you can't use Zealot's Fire or even heal in that case unless you break up the ball. They're still not bunching up for AoE hexes.

On top of all that, you're *still* bunching up to be hit by Fear Me.

In other words, a 'mobile ball' is an even bigger fallacy than the IWAY teams trying to play a stationary game. You're going to try and run down a mobile, independent Warrior with your entire stationary strategy? It's just a bad idea on every level.

I would argue that the point of the Fear Me strategy for IWAY is to force the opposing team to play a mobile game. They can't bunch up and play a healing ball, they can't just wait for you to come in, they have to come for you, they need to spread out, they need to fight on our terms. Most organized Tombs teams are HoH builds, which basically boils down to stationary offense and defense for the dais, and having to spread out and play a mobile game is something they're simply ill-prepared for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

but im just saying, since you are comparing a _good_ iway team to a ball, it only makes sense to assume the ball is _good_ too.

I'm saying that it comes down to who gets to set the terms for the engagement.

By bunching up into a ball, your team is attempting to set the terms of the battle to be a stationary one - stationary defense, and as a consequence stationary offense like wells and storms. Most IWAY builds have no choice but to accept the terms that the ball sets forth, and they aren't prepared to fight the stationary game and lose.

What Fear Me does is add another layer to the terms of the battle - you can play stationary defense, but only if you accept being perma-locked at 0 energy (barring focus swaps). That, needless to say, is a huge disadvantage. I don't think that *any* ball can survive under those terms of battle. Their only real choice, as you've already started to allude to, is to abandon the stationary defense and start moving. Losing the stationary defense also means losing the stationary offense, and at that point you might as well just give up on the ball entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

the main point everyone is trying to make is that good defense > good offense.

The cycle is good defense > good offense > good disruption > good defense.

I'm not trying to argue that a proper defense won't beat a good offense. My point, though, is that defense is inherently reactive, and has to counter each particular offense. You can't approach every offense with exactly the same game plan and hope to be successful - keeping Aegis up constantly isn't going to do a thing to a caster spike team, ninja Protective Spirits aren't going to bother a DoT team at all, and so forth.

My argument, thus, is that the stationary, healing ball defense is not an effective defense against a prepared IWAY team, because they have the disruptive tools to break that defense and virtually guarantee victory. Instead, I believe that you need a solid, *mobile* strategy, both offensively and defensively, if you want to beat IWAY. The teams that give us the most problems follow that pattern - they run GvG style builds with mobile Monks and good Aegis coverage, that can neutralize enough of the damage for the Monks to keep up and their offense to eventually break IWAY's defenses. Toss in some Warrior hate and DoT, and you have a pretty textbook description of the teams that most frequently beat us head to head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

but your team still has 0 defense.

IWAY has plenty of defense, at least against stationary strategies - running and ressigs. Get to low health, run away and regen. Someone drop? Get them back at full health. Warriors are surprisingly resilient against an awful lot of damage. If you want to kill them you basically need to snare + focus, or in more general terms, have a good directed, mobile offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

i just dont see this winning in the hoh, go use fear me and the ghost and see if he can cast claim resource at 0 energy.

Oh, IWAY doesn't win in the HoH. It is remarkably bad there, in fact, and I believe that's one of the main reasons you don't see more top guilds running the build. Dais maps put an enormous emphesis on stationary defense. Guess what IWAY doesn't have? It can't really change the terms, either, because you still have to hold the center and there's no running around or whatnot there. No, that map is about stationary defense whether you like it or not, and your only real choice there is to kill *everyone* inside of two minutes and then capture the dais. The only map where IWAY is worse is the Courtyard, where you don't just have the dais to worry about, but autores. No, IWAY gets hosed on dais, no two ways about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

all in all, good ball > good iway. i have yet to see a good iway tho.

To re-iterate - good ball loses to good IWAY because good IWAY has the disruption to own good, packed, stationary defense. Good disruption > good defense. Good, GvG-style, mobile defenses own IWAY's face. IWAY is a terrible GvG build, don't use it there.

The trouble is, and this is why I particularly enjoy running IWAY when I have no expectation of holding the hall, very few teams in tombs run good mobile defenses - because they want to get to and hold the hall. They run good *stationary* defenses, and remarkably poor mobile defenses. Thus IWAY can simply feast on even great teams running HoH builds over and over on the way to the hall, and will get there with regularity, simply to lose because it's a terrible hall build. It obviously isn't for everyone, but if you just want to take advantage of holes in the tombs metagame and pull in 15+ fame per run before quitting in the vault, I don't think there's a better build.

Peace,
-CxE

Eonwe · Sep 16, 2005, 12:25 AM // 00:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rey Lentless

I've yet to see fear me used in an IWAY. While I've only seen one iway with IQ people in it, it was a hammer build without fear me.. was in the hall, and you didn't win.

If you're using frenzy, then the aoe would really really destroy the team. I'm sorry, but between the blackouts, frenzy, and the aoe.. your version of the good iway would drop quicker than the bad one against a ball.

Just to clear things up you don't need frenzy. The attack speed buff you're getting from IWAY is more than plenty, and with Fear Me you're looking at around 35 pips of energy degeneration.