Curse

EinValentine · Jul 30, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctrl_Alt_Delete

it seems like an awesome character, but im new as well; how does it do pve? i mean, i think im a long ways off from trying to make it in an arena. will it do decently in the story mode?

Just thought I'd report on this. I read this thread and was sufficiently intrigued that I've run a Mesmer through the entire PvE game specifically to try this out. I hired a runner to hit Droknar's as soon as possible and from there went on to capture Virulence, then went back to progressing through the story normally.

In short: it ROCKS in PvE. It's brutal on anything that has flesh. Attributes varied through the game obviously but Illusion was highest then Domination, then Fast Casting. No surprise there.

My skill bar was:

Fragility
Phantom Pain
Shatter Delusions
Virulence
Conjure Phantasm

(the basics) and then the other 3 slots were devoted to some combination of the following depending on the needs of the mission:

Backfire
Empathy
Clumsiness
Diversion
Cry of Frustration
Shatter Hex
Res Signet

This thing runs rings around my Elementalist for single target damage. Conjure Phantasm/Backfire and then the full Virulence combo is pretty much death for most flesh based creatures if it comes off.

Fleshless creatures are problematic however (things like Skeletons, Jades, Golems, Titans etc.) They ignore 2 of the three conditions output by Virulence so that cuts your damage down a bit, and they are a fairly common enemies so you need to be prepared for them. Even without Virulence though you can stack up some nice degen with Phantasm and Phantom pain and then spike them with Shatter Delusions for damage and a wound. Its not as satifying as watching a Mursaat Elementalist crumple up and die after you wiggle your fingers at them but it's still pretty effective.

These are also the times you'll be using Backfire, Clumsiness, etc. Which are still quite effective. Basically you are okay against anything fleshless and DEADLY against the rest.

All is not roses however. Energy management was always an issue for me and interrupt based mobs can be a hassle (Wind Rider types especially), though it's fairly easy to hang back while other folks get aggro and then nail a couple that are focused on other people. The key to getting the most out of this build in PvE is to plan and choose your targets carefully.

Also, of course, you are a PvE Mesmer and it can be hard to find a group since PvE folks aren't real keen on Mesmers generally, so get used to henching it if you don't have a good group of friends/guild. However this build is great with henchies, since if you are good at managing them you can make sure all the flak is heading their way while you pick off the fleshy types.

It has been a lot of fun to play. I haven't run it in the Fissure yet, we'll have to see how it fares there.

Yezah · Jul 30, 2005, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

1. Virulence releases three conditions, not just two. Besides Weakness and Disease, it also layers on Poison when applied to a previous condition (like Deep Wound). This is currently undocumented on every list I've seen.

I did a Fragility + Virulence build about 2 months ago and I was always confused about why I got 3 damage numbers not 2 when I cast it on someone, how did you find out it also added poison?

arredondo · Jul 31, 2005, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Awesome report EinValentine. Glad that it's working well for you. Perhaps you'll get more group invites as more PvE players learn of the class' destruction skills.

Yezah... as I said in the first post, I went to the International District Team Arena in Droknar's with seven other players who also wanted to test it out. It was clear that when a Condition was down and Virulence was applied, three Fragility numbers would pop up instead of the expected two (for Disease and Weakness). I had other theories, like Deep Wound's Fragility damage coming late since Fragility never shows it with numbers, but I couldn't fully understand it without seeing what my target sees.

So I brought my build to the Team Arena with some friends and ran the tests... the person I applied it to took jpg shots and we all clearly saw the results later on - Poison is applied as the last Condition with Virulence. We also verified that Deep Wound triggers Fragility damage, but only the victim sees the numbers pop up (again, a jpg showed this).

So now its not even debatable anymore. As long as you don't start with Weakness, Disease of Poison, you'll get the full evil benefits from the Fragility+Virulence combo as I've described.

BTW, I've seen variations of this build a lot more since last I posted here... as a result I now carry Hex Breaker with me instead of Illusion of Weakness. It helps vs. all kinds of hexes of course, but this build is the one I fear the most.

Ilya Khan · Aug 01, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Poor build.
Before I purchased GW, I came up with this build and worked to it. Within a week of having it, this is all I did in the PVP arena's and I don't think anyone caught on. However, I must say that this build is easily countered by any careful opponent. I would suggest the following.

Illusion - 12+1+3=16
Domination - 11+1 = 12
Curses - Dump the rest in here - Should give you like 5 or 6 I beleive

Cast in this order
Parasitic bond - quick cast and cheap - good to counter hex breakers
Fragility
Conjure Phantasm- put on to protect against single hex removal
Phantom Pain
Shatter Delusions
Virulence
Leech Signet or Power Drain (I used to use Power Drain)

Last slot I usually carried a Res Sig.

This build is superior to the one listed because it counters any kind of hex removal while giving HP Degen at the same time the damage is being done. Try it out :P

BrotherReins · Aug 01, 2005, 09:54 PM // 21:54

this is the build i am currently running:

fragility
phantom pain
shatter delusions
virulence {e}
energy burn
cry of frustration
distortion
illusion of weakness

6+1(7) - Fast Casting
12+2+1(15) - Illusion Magic
11+2(13) - Domination Magic
2 - Death Magic

however, i find that this is just simply not enough damage after the fragility-virulence combo followed up by energy burn has been completed. does anyone have any tips on anything i can change around in order to make this an almost guaranteed kill, save the obvious counters?

arredondo · Aug 02, 2005, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilya Khan

Poor build.
Before I purchased GW, I came up with this build and worked to it. Within a week of having it, this is all I did in the PVP arena's and I don't think anyone caught on. However, I must say that this build is easily countered by any careful opponent. I would suggest the following.

Illusion - 12+1+3=16
Domination - 11+1 = 12
Curses - Dump the rest in here - Should give you like 5 or 6 I beleive

Cast in this order
Parasitic bond - quick cast and cheap - good to counter hex breakers
Fragility
Conjure Phantasm- put on to protect against single hex removal
Phantom Pain
Shatter Delusions
Virulence
Leech Signet or Power Drain (I used to use Power Drain)

Last slot I usually carried a Res Sig.

This build is superior to the one listed because it counters any kind of hex removal while giving HP Degen at the same time the damage is being done. Try it out :P

It can't be that poor of a build when you have 5/8 of the same skills in your version, particularly the core skills. The primary combo is what makes this shine, regardless of what one dresses around it. You chose to add Parasitic Bond (where I may have chosen Illusion of Weakness before, but now use Hex Breaker myself).

You're right - that's a decent Hex Breaker breaker (much like Wastrel's Worry for some people), but you don't get the -1 degen and the bonus health unless it attaches some where as you know, while the rejection punishes you. Perhaps you apply it to other enemies while you de-Hex Break your main target? If so, that's a fine idea - you take damage everytime Hex Breaker stops yoy (50 can be 10%+ of your health). I don't disagree with this skill used this way at all.

Also you have Conjure Phantom instead of my Back Fire. I have no problem here either. I choose Back Fire for pure caster control (with PP), but it's slow and doesn't damage if it isn't triggered. For a cheaper cost and a faster cast (1s vs. 3s), you definitely get consistent results with the -5 degen. For me, BF at minimum stops them from casting.

If an Air Ele and I meet to the side for 1v1, I win if he can't stop hexes. I use BF as a way to virtually guarantee a caster kill (unless he's majorly healed) since they only need to trigger BF once for the rest of the combo to finish them off, and if he won't cast, I can kill him anyway with a few more seconds of time. It's worked VERY well so far for me that I'm not willing to add a DoT at this point, but if this works for you then great.

Leech Signet or Power Drain... I like the energy addition, but hopefully your defense is sound to accomodate it. I'd probably choose Power Drain since the 45 second recharge of Leech is poor without recharge help. For my style, I can get enough mana as I said earlier to run this build with no energy problem. I wait for skills before I wait for energy most cases. If I were to pick an interrupt, I'd take either Power Spike or Power Leak.

Be that as it may, I picked the defense of Distortion to help me deal with enemies who use melee or arrows against me. It's not perfect, but it keeps me safer than going without it. I honestly try and add tis to all my builds besides a Rez.

arredondo · Aug 02, 2005, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrotherReins

this is the build i am currently running:

fragility
phantom pain
shatter delusions
virulence {e}
energy burn
cry of frustration
distortion
illusion of weakness

6+1(7) - Fast Casting
12+2+1(15) - Illusion Magic
11+2(13) - Domination Magic
2 - Death Magic

however, i find that this is just simply not enough damage after the fragility-virulence combo followed up by energy burn has been completed. does anyone have any tips on anything i can change around in order to make this an almost guaranteed kill, save the obvious counters?

Your stats look great, but wouldn't 90% be still decent?

. This was never to be seen as a 100% death combo, but it can be if you find ways to add damage I suppose. If the problem isn't healing by the opponent, then a couple of suggestions:

1) Cast Energy Burn first. You limit their mana a bit and you allow E. Burn to recharge earlier for more use later on. If they are running around while they are dying, this may pop back up at the right time (especially if you bring a +20% recharge of Domination weapon - I use one on my PvP only).

2). Allow Phantom Pain to degen a bit more before you shatter it. You can get 8 seconds of degen (-48 damage with your stats) regularly with practice.

3) Lower Fast Cast and Death (or remix your Vigor runes) until you can get 14 Domination. That will add damage to Energy Burn and Shatter Delusions, but takes away from Virulence degen (-32 I think). Maybe it helps, but you have to test (I prefer Fast Cast points however).

4). Get some Inspiration points some how to earn more energy from a skill (Power Drain gives the most for the least) and replace Cry of Frustration. Then switch IoW with Archane Echo (expensive at 15E) so you can copy Virulence or Energy Burn.

5) Consider adding Power Spike for Cry of Frustration... with high Domination stats, it gives you just enough punch to kill a caster who doesn't know when to stop. Cast it early so you can have it ready again as it has a really decent recharge rate.

You have to give up stuff to get what you want, maybe these ideas will help you (at the cost of defense lol).

furyhawk · Aug 02, 2005, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Bring 1 rez signet. U can easily kill the mesmer by now.

Ilya Khan · Aug 02, 2005, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Well, to stop casters and such from casting, why not use power drain? Replenishes most if not all of your energy when you use it to stop their cast. And that 1 extra second is all you really need to finish executing the combo. I say it is a poor build because I tried for about a month to find the most effective and unstoppable way to do this. The other choice of mine for the build was using clumsiness or backfire and that usually added that extra punch to the combo to garuntee a kill.

I rarely use this combo anymore because I have realized that any decent monk would simply heal the person once their health drops below 75% (A reversal + divine favor would do the trick) and it is an inefficient way to use energy to kill someone. I'm sure that this build will become unpopular in the near future when people realize what it is and that all you need is a simple smite hex or a draw conditions once the deep wound has kicked in.

EinValentine · Aug 02, 2005, 02:57 AM // 02:57

I've been screwing around in the random teams matchups with Frag/Virulence and have found a place in my heart for Ethereal Burden.

Why? It's dual purpose, it has both a worthwhile effect when cast (the snare) and over time is actually a net energy gain to use.

It also helps to get warriors off my back. I don't know how it goes in more organized fights, but in the random machups I practically always have some obnoxious warrior on my butt all the time 'til he's dead. Distortion is often simply not enough, particularly not if they are packing spells in their secondary. Ethereal Burden gives me some breathing room and helps my energy management. It is also good for dealing with those idiot players that run around long after the match has been decided just to irritate the winning team.

I find that often at the opening of the battle one of the enemy will charge forward hoping to get off some ability or another with the intent to retreat immediately afterward. You can dump Ethereal on them then to mess that up. Then you can unload the frag sequence on someone, by which time Ethereal has worn off or been broken and you get back a very nice chunk of energy just in time to use your combo again.

Its not perfect by any means, but I've found it quite helpful.

manveruppd · Aug 20, 2005, 04:16 PM // 16:16

A few questions:

1. Hex removals: is there a fixed rule as to which hex a removal spell gets rid of if its target is under multiple hexes? For example, is it always the last one applied, or the one that's been there the longest?

2. Phantom Pain: why don't you cast this BEFORE Fragility? It lasts for 10 secs, so you can easily get off Fragility while its degenerating your enemy, so he will already have Fragility on him by the time PP expires (or is removed) and the ensuing Deep Wound will trigger Fragility.

3. Fragility and conditions: if you are already suffering from a condition, will Fragility trigger again if THE SAME CONDITION is reapplied before the previous one's expiration? (I know you're going to say "why would you want to reapply it?", but I don't, I'm just asking to find out how it works, as your target may be a Monk with Martyr or something).

4. Am I right in guessing that this build isn't very effective against Monks with strong condition-removal spells, as the health healed by the condition removals will mostly offset the Fragility damage?

5. Does anyone know if the Poison caused by Virulence is an intentional, undocumented feature, or whether it's just a bug and only a matter of time until it's fixed?

6. Is there a way to tell Fragility has been removed apart from the numbers not appearing when you recast Virulence?

And finally:
7. Wouldn't this build be 400% more effective if you tag-teamed with a Necro to inflict all those conditions instead of doing it yourself? This would:
a. free up at least 2 skill slots on your skill bars, for those vital defense, interrupt, or energy-stealing spells (pick your flavour).
b. prolong the effect of fragility, as a Necro can put a 25" Bleeding on the target and recast Virulence until they're dead (in the unfortunate event the target should recover from the Deep Wound before you've finished them off, thereby gaining health, or has been healed by enemies)
c. spam Parasitic Bond to lower the chances of Fragility being removed
d. Spread the conditions over the whole enemy party with Plague Sending, spamming the enemy monks with "I've got Poison on me!" messages (potentially confusing them as to who the Fragility target is) and putting them in a lose-lose situation: if they use Martyr, they'll trigger Fragility, if they keep healing your Fragility target they're wasting their energy and letting the rest of the group lose health from Conditions, and if they remove Fragility (the smartest option, if they can remove it), they still have all the conditions to take care of, and then all the health already lost to heal (by the whole party, not just the Fragility target), leaving them with probably zero energy.

arredondo · Aug 20, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

1. Hex removal will always take away the most recent one that's ben cast on the target. That's why the starter in this setup (Fragility+Phantom Pain) is so successful in getting around most hex removal attempts.

Fragility comes out in .7 seconds with decent Fast Cast stats.... if you throw it at a target who's already in the middle of, say, a 2-second spell, you will recover (with .75 seconds aftercast) before he does since he has aftercast too. Now you immediately begin throwing out Phantom Pain. Assuming it's not interrupted, you can get it on him in about 1.4 seconds. From the end of HIS aftercast he has about a second or so to cast a hex removal on Fragility before PP snags him.

The result if he's late? He'll remove PP instead and a Deep Wound will form and take away 100 health points and reduce his healing by 20% for up to 20 seconds. Not only that, Virulence WILL immediately be cast (.7 spell) and here comes all the Condition damage that follows, as he now has four of them afflicting him, all triggering Fragility damage.

It is not an easy thing at all to use a hex removal as your main anti Fragility defense. If you can't mass heal through it, you need Hex Breaker or an interrupt for the most consistent results. You have a second or less to get it off befor PP connects, which eliminates most of the Monk's 2-3 second options like Remove Hex. Another Mesmer with FC points can use Shatter or Inspired Hex because of a .7 or less cast time. Mesmer secondaaries using these are cutting it to the wire. No, hex removal isn't impossible, but fairly difficult in most cases.

2. I do change around my cast times actually for various reasons. Try putting Back Fire after PP and if they remove BF they not only take 120 damage from it, tPPs -60 degen and its -100 point Deep Wound means they have taken -280 damage BEFORE Fragility or Virulence are even part of the picture!You are also spamming the wand during that time (average -15 every 1.25 seconds) which adds up more damage. The opponent may be on his last 35% health when the DW is formed, and a Fragility scast at 8-seconds allow you to Virul them just as you are able too for the win.

Play around with all kinds of variations, or even team up with a Necro or Warrior to hunt enemies that already have Conditions on them.

3. No,, Fragility never re-triggers when a repeated Condition is cast before the old one expires.

4. There are better ways for a Mesmer to deal with Monks. Mesmers can be just as tough to kill with this setup if they are half-way decent. That leaves four other classes that absolutely need their Monk if they don't have the right secondary. You can't kill 'em all so it is still pretty effective in many ways.

For instance, Say if three Fragility+Virulence MesNecs were in the Team Arenas with a competant Monk teammate. By laying down Fragility combos on three enemies (including a Monk if they have two), you are creating enough spike havok that can beat many different teams even if they have healing. With other Mesmer skills built in (interrupts, Diversion, Back Fire, etc.) It isn't an eeasy thing to cure three team members (and/or yourself) simultaneously at the brink of death. Not unstoppable, I don't mean to imply that, but a pretty strong group indeed.

5. I think it's just not listed. It's understandable to see something accidently kept out, but not accidently put in IMHO. Besides, we sent our findings with photos to Arena.net - they could've easily fixed it if it were a glitch. Because it can be stopped with planning on a build, no need to adjust it. I hope they simply update the descrip.

6. Only if its the single hex on the enemy. If the pink marker is gone, then Fragility is gone. Don't worry, if PP was successfully cast, it is extremely likely to still be there because of the Last In First Out rule described above.

7. Oh, this is definitely a strong enough setup to get some decent team mate action going. The sky's the limit on how you plan it out. The Mesmer can concentrate on Fast Cast points even to minimize the extended hex cast times under NR in play modes like HoH. Using mantra of Concentration to ward off Choking Gas interrupts and the like, you can contribute easily with 30E of 4 second casting (under NR): Fragility - Phantom Pain - Shatter Delusions. The Necro can then apply Virulence and you both are free to speed up the damage. He may even have Arcane Echo set up on Virulence to apply it again in three seconds, while applying Bleeding as you mention. Many options exist.

Captain Planets · Aug 21, 2005, 05:17 AM // 05:17

where is virlulence? ive searched the forzen forest and searched for elite skill locations but i still cant find it

manveruppd · Aug 21, 2005, 12:19 PM // 12:19

The bosses don't always appear in the same place, and sometimes not at all. Next time you go there you'll probably find him.

manveruppd · Aug 21, 2005, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Thanks for the comprehensive reply! Didn't know that stuff about how hex removal worked - I assume the last on-first off rule applies to conditions as well?
Spam-casting Arcane Echo/Virulence sounds like a decisively EVIL combo!

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 21, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

The reasons this skill build is so popular and powerful is because of the damn armor ignoring damage this thing produces. I've done my own run of this build using energy denial as my backup. It's a very energy hungry build and I found myself just emptying out enemy monks and especially enemy eles with it. Warriors are funny as I'll just clobber the one hitting me with Virulence so his dmg becomes crap [yay weakness] and simply run around with disease and then Plague Touch.

At the heart, this is a conditions build so running plague sending or touch just hurts that much more... ^_^

arredondo · Aug 21, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Actually, -35E to potentially do 80%-100% damage makes it a pretty energy efficient setup. Plus, with natural energy regen during a sequence, by the time you hit Virulence you should have only spent a net 22E to 25E. Not too bad at all.

Sambjo · Aug 21, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

I've began to see more and more of these silly builds in GvG. It's really stupid, since hex removal, condition removal, or signet of humility own your face. Personally, I just pack signet of humility and laugh at these silly mes's in arena. In real games we just remove the stupid hex.

The DPS is insane but the ease of countering it, the problem with kiting/target switching, the cycle time and energy issues make this build a noob killing machine and not much else.

knives · Aug 21, 2005, 06:04 PM // 18:04

I've fought tons of these in random arenas. All I do is use the mend ailment button and it really speaks for itself.

LightsEternity · Aug 21, 2005, 06:23 PM // 18:23

listen guys the only time when Me/N fragility spike is only good is in GvG for taking out the flag runner and all the NPCs. Usually teams don't equip hexbreaker on their Runner (though many guilds are now starting to do so), so you have an easy target to kill, that will hurt the other team a lot.

Eternal Pariah uses this strategy, though I believe their Me/N has changed around a lot.

Anyway, a good skill set up to consider:

Phantasm, Fragility, Phantom Pain, Shatter, Virulence, Ethereal Burden, Tap, Arcane Echo.

A combo of Arcane echo with virulence will ensure your target is dead within 6 seconds.