Curse

arredondo · Jul 24, 2005, 11:35 PM // 23:35

I've been running a Fragility+Virulence build for some time now. It is indeed a VERY efficient Rambo killer setup that destroys any character not properly defending it (hex breaker, spirits, etc.). However, it is kind of weird in the way some of the numbers come up. Some fellow Mesmers and I investigated the strangeness of Virulence and Fragility and came to the following conclusions:

1. Virulence releases three conditions, not just two. Besides Weakness and Disease, it also layers on Poison when applied to a previous condition (like Deep Wound). This is currently undocumented on every list I've seen.

2. Fragility does get triggered for incoming/outcoming damage when DeepWound is inflicted/removed, but you will never see the numbers on the caster's side (we verified it on the receiver's side with pics).

So, as it stands it is a really nice spike build that can be stopped, but is DEVASTATING when it isn't. Here's the build I use in the arenas as an example for those who are not sure what I'm describing:

Fast Cast - 7 (6+1)
Illusion -15 (11+3+1)
Domination - 13 (12+1)
Death - 0

Alternatively, you can max out Illusion at 16 with a 4 (3+1) Fast Cast for -12 extra damage each Virulence cast.

Distortion - for 5E, dodge 75% attacks at a -1E cost each time it works
Backfire - causes 126 damage when a spell is cast (and it doesn't end)
Fragility - causes 34 damage everytime a condition begins or ends
Illusion of Weakness - saves 240 bonus health in reserve
Phantom Pain - causes -3 degen and a 100 point Deep Wound spike when shattered
Virulence {E} - Disease, Poison and Weakness for 3 seconds
Shatter Delusions - causes 67 damage when used on PP (AWESOME combo)
Rez Signet

Basicallly you choose a dangerous target that the rest of the team isn't pounding on. You deliver 100% death far more often than not, but if they live they are gasping for healing help. A full sequence can be done in under 10 seconds.

Application in arenas:

First cast backfire on the caster. Look for hex removal (note it for next time). If it's removed (usually a Monk or Mesmer) you can go to plan B (see below). Otherwise, you can oftentimes just cast little fear of removal or interruption.

With Backfire on them (if they are a caster), I cast Fragility next, then Phantom Pain. If the PP hex wasn't removed (see plan B below), you can use your wand for two or three hits if you wish for some bonus damage while PP degens at -3. In any case, hit Shatter Delusions whenever you want and you'll get 63 for the spell and 100 damage for the Deep Wound (lasts 20 seconds). The subtotal here is 163 damage PLUS you get another unseen 34 hit from Fragility for a 197 total spike (!). This does not even count your wand casts or PP degen.

Deep Wound is on them so hit Virulence, this is spike #2. You immediately see -34 three times, one for each condition (102 damage). Hit them with your wand, and three seconds later you get another 102 damage as they recover from the three conditions. That's about 400 in raw damage inflicted. If they tried to cast even once through the Back Fire, they are dead 9/10 times. When you add in, say, 7 seconds of degen before the shatter with two wand hits, that's about 70 more damage that can hurt the non-casters who aren't affected by BF. Either way, you'll see lots of dead people than not.

Plan B is that you may want to wait until they begin a cast, then apply Backfire-->Phantom Pain. this way you have a better chance of them removing the PP if they have that type of anti-hex skill. Removing PP in this sequence is deadly to them - they get zapped by Backfire for 126 damage AND they take a 100 point Deep Wound hit from the hex removed. Simply do the rest of your sequence and you are still in control of their fate. PP is an awesome BF removal protector (as is Diversion) if you can get it in.

Now of course this isn't some "perfect" build with no way to stop it, but with Distortion to kite melee attacks while I have 240 health in reserve (essentially 725 health if not dying of degen), I've been far more effective in battle with this setup than I haven't been. If they are healing, you can get another Virulence in as well as another PP before Fragility ends. I've stalked and killed virtually entire teams of four once or twice, as getting at least two deaths registered by the end of the round is not uncommon. For the record, my health is 485 and my energy is 55E or 69E with focus switiching.

cdepue79 · Jul 24, 2005, 11:46 PM // 23:46

are you sure about psn being stacked in with virulence? What makes you think this? Im assuming you know disease turns green too, but why do you think this? If so this could be very good, but it sucks when you disease a warrior, he hits you and you get diseased too.

arredondo · Jul 25, 2005, 12:32 AM // 00:32

As I said, me and some other mesmers tested it. We went to the Intl. Team Arena (eight of us) and tested it. One of them took some jpgs (he was my target)... but the shots were taken off the photo site for some reason. Trust me - I'm 100% positive. I've already asked some sites to update their listing of the skill, but none have yet.

thaumaturge · Jul 25, 2005, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Hmm cool idea, never really saw virulence as a very good elite but it actually works well in this combo for 3 secs. I tested it out with enfeeble (which is cheap but doesn't really add damage) and it only showed 2 conditions worth of damage at the end and start, not 3. Seems odd that Anet would forget to add this in the description.

mamluk · Jul 25, 2005, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

As I said, me and some other mesmers tested it. We went to the Intl. Team Arena (eight of us) and tested it. One of them took some jpgs (he was my target)... but the shots were taken off the photo site for some reason. Trust me - I'm 100% positive. I've already asked some sites to update their listing of the skill, but none have yet.

He is right, poison is undocumented, but also added by virulence.

I have also been running a fragility virulence combo, but I have found that in the arena, going strong inspiration is more effective than domination. Sure, the shatter delusions doesnt do as much damage, but the difference is about 30 points of health, not that significant if you ask me.

Being able to use energy tap and ether feast helps keep me on my feet longer and allows me to run the combo more often. I havent tried using blood magic, but that might also be a viable alternative. Regardless, its a great combo and a lot of fun to run. I can deal more damage than air ele spikers which is amusing.

All in all, its is a fun build to mess around with, but someone running hex breaker can be tough to deal with if you dont have a quick hex to punch through with, like wastrels. I just shrug and find another target. Monks with mend ailment can also heal for a lot of damage, but nothing is perfect and you have to acknowledge and be able to compensate for the weaknesses of your build.

arredondo · Jul 25, 2005, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Enfeeble inflicts weakness, which is already in Virulence. The double damage numbers you see are for Disease and Poison. Try it with Bleeding or Deep Wound instead.

I have a high Domination not only for SD, but for Backfire effectiveness as well. In the end, a player should tailor it to suit his own needs. The basic setup is great regardless.

Warskull · Jul 25, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I have seen this too, hit them with deep would and then virulence has 3 numbers pop up.

Personally I prefer to put death magic up to 3-4 so virulence lasts 5 seconds. This way they get nailed when the conditions come off and then when I reapply them. This also lets the degen go to work for a while. Especially amusing is when in the competitive arenas the monk get the bright idea of using purge conditions to save their friend.

loc87 · Jul 25, 2005, 02:39 AM // 02:39

i just started guild wars recently, so i'm don't understand the game as well as i'd like yet, but what are the weaknesses of this build?

Ende · Jul 25, 2005, 04:37 AM // 04:37

this build seems great. i'm off to try it with my mesmer

but i have to ask: wouldn't you run out of energy, well, maybe not on the first target, but can you complete two sets of this? what if my mana is 52?

and the other question: what happens when you get a hex on you? looks like a simple backfire would ruin everything. i play at random arenas sometimes and i get backfired quite often.

Tengoku No Yushosha · Jul 25, 2005, 05:02 AM // 05:02

My Mesmer build can easily take these.....fragility builds 1 on 1.

1:Mind Wrack
2:Signet of Weariness
3:Energy Burn
4:Energy Surge
5:Energy Tap
6:Ether Feast
7:Hex Breaker
8:Ressurection Signet

Hex Breaker cancels they're Fragility, Mind Wrack first. Energy Surge and then Energy Burn to sap energy. Energy Tap to regain Energy. Once they are hit with Mind Wrack, use Ether Feast and Energy Tap to easily take them down. I beat many of those Fragility Mesmers without really having to try. Signet of Weariness does energy sapping too.

Morganas · Jul 25, 2005, 05:09 AM // 05:09

yeah, but that mesmer you posted won't survive to get the backlines to ever reach casting range of that mes/nec. Mesmers and necs are priority targets, the OPs build was very good defensively (though I agree that it should use insp instead of dom for energy gain).

Tengoku No Yushosha · Jul 25, 2005, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

yeah, but that mesmer you posted won't survive to get the backlines to ever reach casting range of that mes/nec. Mesmers and necs are priority targets, the OPs build was very good defensively (though I agree that it should use insp instead of dom for energy gain).

The lower the energy, the more effective that build is.

knives · Jul 25, 2005, 05:17 AM // 05:17

If you get the chance, try doing some team arena with an effective earth ele with crystal wave. Thats major spike damage.

arredondo · Jul 25, 2005, 05:28 AM // 05:28

With focus switching, energy hasn't been a problem for me at all. Again, I have two different options.... 55E at 4 regen and 69E at 3 regen. I keep it on the 55E until I absolutely have to have another boost of energy. It works well.

As for beating it, the Mesmer class is the best anti-Fragility class out there. Fragility builds are pretty versatile, i.e. you can do stuff with Flame arrows from Rangers (mentioned somewhere around here), but if someone has Hex Breaker, it's pretty tough as there isn't I can't do much at all without help from the team.

Today I faced a Hex Breaker on a good MeEl.... once I cast Back Fire, it was stopped. I had five seconds to cast another skill before HB recharged. I was able to lay down Fragility, but PP got rejected. Then he lit me up with Obsidian Flame and shot a ton of stone daggers up my butt, lol.

We were on the lava arena level, so I was able to come at him again. This time I cast Fragility first (it was stopped), so I was able to get off Backfire. That protected me since he didn't have a Hex Remover, but I knew I couldn't get PP on him. His team beat mine, and I had to give him props. Mesmer 1v1 showdowns are tons of fun.

There are other ways to make the build a lot less effective (constant heals, transfer conditions, energy denial, interrupts, cast-time extenders, invinci-monks, etc.), so don't go thinking you'll be unstoppable out there. But when they aren't ready to stop me, the dead bodies pile up fast.

mamluk · Jul 25, 2005, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Hex breaker alone can give this build fits, and while a lot of people do use, its unlikely that you wont be able to find a target on a team.

A few nice things about fragility builds- they can do all their damage to warriors just as easily as to casters, most of the spells ignore armour. One thing I like to do is target those warriors that like to charge in using spring, thinking that they wont be targeted. In a few seconds, they are dead. And the rest of their team is just now engaging.

The major weakness of the build is that it is fragile. You dont have a lot or any healing. You have to wait for the spells to recharge before starting it up again. You will run out of energy after using the combo twice and need to recharge or use something like energy tap to speed things up.

With a decent monk, this build is great to have on a team. I think a team with a few other different type of spikers like air ele's and a monk would be pretty effective.

Regardless, its a lot of fun to play. Go cap virulence now!

arredondo · Jul 25, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Good points. Ignoring armor in generals is an awesome skill of the Mesmer class. Like you point out, this stuff works on any basic character becuase of this. There's nothing like watching a Warrior sprint in at you at top speed, watching him whiff his attacks while you Distort and cast, only to see him sprint in the opposite direction when Virulence drops the mega bomb. Priceless!

"Don't run dear warrior... you'll just die tired!" :P

I will however comment on the two weaknesses you mention. Energy can be an issue for any build, but honestly, once I cast my main attacks, I end up waithing a bit for Phantom Pain and Virulence to return to do more damage. Lack of energy is rarely an issue for me.

On healing - I find that with Distortion and IoW on me, I have more than enough sturdiness to last just fine even when no monk is on the team. I understand how close to get in the fray, and I recognize when I'm team targeted so I kite like there's no tomorrow. I can outlast any but the most extreme degen, and I don't stick around for continued casts if I can help it (i.e. single Air Spikes if I'm killing the other caster). And that points to why this build works for me. There are three strong combos of skills going on here that I should highlight:

- Combo One is Phantom Pain+Shatter Delusions for that awesome 40% spike (with Fragility already down).

- Combo Two is Deep Wound+Virulence, for another 40%+ spike in three seconds

- Combo Three is Distortion+Illusion of Weakness.

For Combo Three in arenas where enchant removal is rare (you still get the health bonus if IoW is dispelled BTW), I can't get enough of these two skills together. They've saved my butt sooooooooo much, that I can't imagine a better combo for anti-melee to sync up with my playstyle. I'm ALWAYS on the move, and if I sense danger, I dart like a madman.

Unlike other options, like Imagined Burden, Soothing Images and Ether Feast, etc. (or even the entire Necro Blood line), I like Distortion+IoW because I don't have to stop to cast them. To me that makes a huge difference because while I'm kiting, I get the benefits of both of these skills when I need them without having to stop.

Eventually, many opponents will get discouraged, or I am making it easier for my team to not deal with the two warriors chasing me. The best part though is when one enemy is chasing me (any class). I run to the far end of the map to get them away from their healer.

They think I'm scared, but as soon as they are away from help, I Distort and unlesh the full barrage of spells on them - death in 8-10 seconds is not uncommon. If they're a caster, Back Fire only needs to be triggered once to guarantee me a death even faster (which is why I prefer high Domination). If they aren't a caster, I lay down Back Fire anyway at about 50% to punish any subclass Healing Breeze attempts. 1v1 so far with this build has been easily 90%+ in my favor.

Again, this is based on how I play. I know the weaknesses of these skills too, like the rarity of being able to recast IoW in battle (which, if I play smart, I won't have to). But when I'm able to survive being crippled and bleeding, surrounded by two warriors attempting to pound my head in for 10 seconds or so, and am able to come out of it in one piece to kite and recharge again, I feel like proposing to these two skills for making it happen (my monks thank them too I'm sure).

I say all that to really insist that durability is not an issue for me. 9/10 I am the last teammate standing. I play smart, I know my limits, and these two skills fill in the gaps. Combined with the first two combos in delivering my damage (separately or combined), I have a well rounded character that makes good use of the seven skill slots available (you DO always carry a rez signet in arenas, right?!)

Ctrl_Alt_Delete · Jul 25, 2005, 07:13 AM // 07:13

it seems like an awesome character, but im new as well; how does it do pve? i mean, i think im a long ways off from trying to make it in an arena. will it do decently in the story mode?

arredondo · Jul 25, 2005, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Lol, I have absolutely no idea. Just Echo+Chaos Storm through story mode. That's what I did.

OneArmedScissor · Jul 25, 2005, 08:06 AM // 08:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tengoku No Yushosha

The lower the energy, the more effective that build is.

Simply untrue.

Maybe it's more cost(energy) effective, but definately not effictive in any other areas.

Azadaleou · Jul 25, 2005, 09:48 AM // 09:48

I'm starting to see more and more mesmers use that setup. Basically, all you see is one row of hexes then three conditions and then boom your dead. I wouldn't be suprised if that combo gets nerfed in some way or another in the near future.