Curse

Eonwe · Nov 08, 2005, 12:47 AM // 00:47

I'm actually testing this right now and getting some very interesting results. As in, casting order is affecting how much damage I am doing. I'll post my results in a bit. Like I said before, it was to my knowledge that they stacked. I was basing that assumption off of what I had been told by Ensign (who is usually 100% correct ;o).

id0l · Nov 08, 2005, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercury Angel

Moved to Arcane Repository.

Thanks, again I posted in the wrong forum, hehe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Read the Wind, Favorable Winds, and Winnowing all stack to my knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by User Name
Conjure Flame + Kindle Arrows + Vamp Bow + Favorable is a better spike than Favorable + Read The Wind.

No, it isn't.

Eonwe, I assumed they stacked as well, until a certain Quickshot thread (in which they were arguing this topic as well) piqued my interest. They do seem to stack as far as arrow speed is concerned (you end up with 4x faster arrows), but as far as my quick 'n easy test is concerned, the damage doesn't stack. I realize you weren't disagreeing, or agreeing, but perhaps you could do a quick test yourself so I can have a secondary source?

I'm not sure about winnowing, I haven't messed with that yet.

I'm curious as well, as to your opinion on the best spike, and your reasoning? To me, it would seem that User Name's suggestion would be correct, but you seem to disagree. It would be one thing if RtW + FW did stack, but I'm just not convinced anymore after testing it myself.

But I will accept that my testing may have been flawed.

Peace,
id0l

edit: Seems you posted when I was typing up my response.

Anxious to see your results.

Mercury Angel · Nov 08, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

I'm actually testing this right now and getting some very interesting results. As in, casting order is affecting how much damage I am doing. I'll post my results in a bit. Like I said before, it was to my knowledge that they stacked. I was basing that assumption off of what I had been told by Ensign (who is usually 100% correct ;o).

I believe the first thread I saw on this subject mentioned casting order determining whether they stack or not as well. I await your results.

id0l · Nov 08, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

I'm actually testing this right now and getting some very interesting results. As in, casting order is affecting how much damage I am doing. I'll post my results in a bit. Like I said before, it was to my knowledge that they stacked. I was basing that assumption off of what I had been told by Ensign (who is usually 100% correct ;o).

Interesting if this is indeed true. This is because the spirit was cast prior to preparing RtW. Would seem very, very inconvinient to have to do RtW first then cast the spirit. And not too sure if the +6 damage would last after the first RtW prep (i.e., entering second RtW prep while original spirit is still alive)? Perhaps you can test this too.

Regardless, in either case, I think they are not "stacking" correctly (it honestly shouldn't matter about the cast order), so after we get more evidence/testing collected and presented (screenshots really help, they always request them), I'll contact ArenaNet about it and forward them here.

Eonwe · Nov 08, 2005, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by id0l

Interesting if this is indeed true. This is because the spirit was cast prior to preparing RtW. Would seem very, very inconvinient to have to do RtW first then cast the spirit.

I'm now pretty much 100% sure that the order in which you cast RtW and Favorable Winds has an affect on whether or not you get the bonus damage from each.

If you are to cast RtW first, followed up by Favorable, you will get both damage bonuses from each. However, if you reverse the order, and cast favorable first followed by RtW, the only dmg bonus you recieve comes from RtW, and tht extra 6 dmg from favorable is just umm... not there so to say.

Quote:

And not too sure if the +6 damage would last after the first RtW prep (i.e., entering second RtW prep while original spirit is still alive)? Perhaps you can test this too.

If you cast RtW first, then drop favorable you will be getting the bonus from both (as stated before). However, when your initial RtW goes down, and you recast it while favorable is still up, you only get the bonus dmg from RtW.

Also, on a side note, I also tested winnowing with all of this. The extra 4 damage you get from winnowing tacked onto everything regardless of the order that I cast it in. So the only problem seems to lie with RtW and Favorable Winds.

Edit: Also, as to whether or not the speed bonuses from RtW and Favorable winds stack I cannot say.

Batou of Nine · Nov 08, 2005, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Wow Gj with the testing and info... im glad further testing has revealed more.

Casting order seems to be such a unnessecary aspect, but for some reason is inherent in the game mechanics. I should retest to see the results found by Eonew. If i get the chance ill get Screenies of test info that matches Eonew's results.

I am also curious that if i cast RtW first then FW, then recaste RtW to restart the 24 second duration, will that negate the dmg stacking? or will this remain as the first cast in the stacking and still apply? Physically would the affects move RtW to the second condition or stay as the first? lol, does that make sense?

anywhoo, ill test tonight! nice work so far yall...

carnivore · Nov 08, 2005, 02:04 AM // 02:04

i believe i've read the same topic id0l is speaking of. thats why i've said a couple of times that FW and RTW do not stack, just because thats what i remember reading. Also, i believe the properties of winnowing was also discussed in how it only affects arrows not under Kindle

Eonwe · Nov 08, 2005, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

I am also curious that if i cast RtW first then FW, then recaste RtW to restart the 24 second duration, will that negate the dmg stacking? or will this remain as the first cast in the stacking and still apply? Physically would the affects move RtW to the second condition or stay as the first? lol, does that make sense?

From what I saw you would only be getting the extra damage from RtW in that case (after you recast RtW when FW is still up).

mr_boo · Nov 08, 2005, 02:16 AM // 02:16

So let me get this straight...if you cast RtW -> Favorable Winds you would only get the damage stack on the 1st RtW regardless or not if you recast RtW before the 1st one expires? Sorry, if I'm not understanding this or I'm just being confusing....but I think this is what Batou was trying to say and will be testing out as well.

JYX · Nov 08, 2005, 02:31 AM // 02:31

This has already been tested somewhat. Results in the thread here.

id0l · Nov 08, 2005, 03:41 AM // 03:41

I have done my part by emailing ArenaNet support (bugs/skills and special abilities). I left a detailed message and asked them to visit this thread for screenshots and documentation. Hopefully we shall see a response shorty.

Peace,
id0l

Eonwe · Nov 08, 2005, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

This has already been tested somewhat. Results in the thread here.

Got the same results shown below.

Ok so I did some testing last night after seeing a post on guru (lol), and got some wtf results.

I did my testing on a rockshot devourer (Lvl 20) with the following set up.

0 Marksmanship
Normal Max Damage Bow, un-customized

I determined the normal arrow damage to be 3.
Read the Wind adds 3 damage at 0 marks
Favorable adds 6 damage regardless of attribute level
Winnowing adds 4 damage regardless of attribute level

The Results:

Order of casting -

RtW -> Winnowing [10 dmg]

Here we are getting both bonuses from rtw and winnowing, an extra 7 damage.

Winnowing -> RtW [10 dmg]

Once again we are getting both bonuses from rtw and winnowing.

RtW -> Favorable [12 dmg]

Here we are getting both bonuses from rtw and favorable, an extra 9 damage.

Favorable -> RtW [6 dmg]

This is where everything sort of fouls up. The bonus that we should be getting from favorable winds based on the previous set up is not there. The only bonus damage we get is the 3 extra damage from RtW.

RtW -> Favorable -> Winnowing [16 dmg]

Here we have all of the bonuses stacking, for a total of +13 extra damage. Once again, note that the RtW was cast before the favorable.

Favorable -> RtW -> Winnowing [10 dmg]

Here we are getting only the bonuses from RtW and Winnowing. The bonus damage from favroable is not there.

Favorable -> Winnowing -> RtW [10 dmg]

Once again, favorable was cast before RtW, and the bonus that we should be getting is not there. However, we are still getting the bonuses from both Winnowing and RtW, an extra 7 dmg.

Winnowing -> RtW - Favorable [16 dmg]

Here we are getting all of the bonuses again. Note that RtW was cast before favorable, and that we are getting +13 dmg.

Winnowing -> Favorable -> RtW [10 dmg]

Here the RtW is once again cast after the favorable, and the damage bonuses we get only come from winnowing and Rtw, for +7 dmg.

Winnowing -> Favorable [13 dmg]
Favorable -> Winnowing [13 dmg]

Just used this part as sort of a control. The damage we get from both spirits is not affected by the order in which they are cast. Only when RtW is introduced do the numbers change.

Ok so, certainly some interesting results. What it comes down to is this. If you cast RtW before favorable winds, you'll get the damage bonus from both. However, if favorable is cast first, only the damage bonus from RtW is seen. Winnowing stacks no matter what with either, and the casting order does not affect the damage.

Also, on a side note. If you cast RtW first, then drop favorable you will be getting the bonus from both(as stated before). If your prep RtW goes down, and you recast it while favorable is still up, you only get the bonus dmg from RtW.

Bugeater · Nov 08, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_boo

So let me get this straight...if you cast RtW -> Favorable Winds you would only get the damage stack on the 1st RtW regardless or not if you recast RtW before the 1st one expires? Sorry, if I'm not understanding this or I'm just being confusing....but I think this is what Batou was trying to say and will be testing out as well.

Any time you re-cast something that is already present (be it a hex, an enchant, and it now seems also a prep), it gets put back on the top of the stack as if it was just cast fresh.

This is a little mis-leading as the icons stay in the original order on your screen. But if you were to do a disenchantment or hex removal, you can actually remove one of the icons that's not the last one on your screen but was the last one cast.

This also follows with Eonwe's finding that if you re-cast RtW it get's put on the top of the stack and the bug shows up.

As a side note, this also brings up other odd questions about effect stacking. I wonder if stance or shout order ever affects things. I'll have to keep an eye out.

mr_boo · Nov 08, 2005, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

Any time you re-cast something that is already present (be it a hex, an enchant, and it now seems also a prep), it gets put back on the top of the stack as if it was just cast fresh.

This is a little mis-leading as the icons stay in the original order on your screen. But if you were to do a disenchantment or hex removal, you can actually remove one of the icons that's not the last one on your screen but was the last one cast.

This also follows with Eonwe's finding that if you re-cast RtW it get's put on the top of the stack and the bug shows up.

As a side note, this also brings up other odd questions about effect stacking. I wonder if stance or shout order ever affects things. I'll have to keep an eye out.

Yeah, I tested it firsthand to make sure and regardless or not if it's put on a stack of RtW already, it gets replaced by the 2nd one, so only the 1st RtW gets the bonus.

Batou of Nine · Nov 08, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr boo

Quote:

Originally Posted by bugeater

Any time you re-cast something that is already present (be it a hex, an enchant, and it now seems also a prep), it gets put back on the top of the stack as if it was just cast fresh.

This is a little mis-leading as the icons stay in the original order on your screen. But if you were to do a disenchantment or hex removal, you can actually remove one of the icons that's not the last one on your screen but was the last one cast.

This also follows with Eonwe's finding that if you re-cast RtW it get's put on the top of the stack and the bug shows up.

As a side note, this also brings up other odd questions about effect stacking. I wonder if stance or shout order ever affects things. I'll have to keep an eye out.

Yeah, I tested it firsthand to make sure and regardless or not if it's put on a stack of RtW already, it gets replaced by the 2nd one, so only the 1st RtW gets the bonus.

Yep. RtW and FW rumors have now been confirmed. I spent a good amount O time testing last night and my results are pretty much EXACTLY the same as Eonwe. Just for redundancy's sake, i will post my results and method...

LvL 20 Ranger
Marksmanship:: 12
Wilderness Survival:: 12
Expertise:: 9

Weapon:: 15-28 piercing dmg <Halfmoon (+14%dmg^50%hp)>

Added Dmg statistics from skills::
RtW:: +9 dmg
FW:: +6 dmg
Kindle Arrows:: +20 fire dmg

Test Subject::
Lvl 3 FLASH GARGOYLES

Dmg Tests (the order shown is the order they were used)::
Normal Bow Dmg:: 122
Bow dmg + RtW:: 131 (122+9) <-- Correct/Working
Bow dmg + RtW + FW:: 137 (122+9+6) <-- Correct/Working

Bow dmg + FW + RtW:: 131 (122+9+0?) <--Bug?
Bow dmg + RtW + Fw + RtW (casted while first RtW was still active):: 131 <--Bug?

The rest is just for fun Dmg Testing using Kindle Arrows::

Bow dmg + Kindle:: 176 (Subjects took 54 fire dmg= 122+54)
Bow dmg + Kindle + FW:: 182 (122+54+6)
Bow dmg + FW + Kindle:: 182 (122+6+54)
FW + Kindle + Dual Shot:: 252 (99+99+54)

As you can see my regular dmg testing results of RtW and FW directly match what has been established, that casting order matters. Which also matches Eonwe's findings. The second set however seemed to not matter. Using Kindle Arrows instead of RtW, with FW was not affected by the order in which i used the skills.

This leads me to believe that casting order of RtW and FW are actually a game bug and not intentionally done that way. Since id0l has reported this, i hope that they can address this or at least tell us why it is that way. For a spiking build i am now trying out Kindle and FW which seems to work well...

I forgot to take screenshots, but i hope all those specific numbers were clear enough yall! enjoy!

dry · Nov 14, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

That's pretty enlightening. One thing that suprises me is the damage output though. 100+ base damage on a bow ranger is pretty kickass :/

Batou of Nine · Nov 14, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by dry

That's pretty enlightening. One thing that suprises me is the damage output though. 100+ base damage on a bow ranger is pretty kickass :/

BUT...Keep in mind, i was testing this on LvL 3 monsters... So...ya.
Glad you found the thread useful though! =D

mp3monster · Nov 24, 2005, 03:53 PM // 15:53

This thread is helpful. I'd like to see the results with Ignite Arrows if anybody wants to put in the time. Unfortunately I have a disease known as "Lazyness Maximus".

EDIT: I'm also curious if the speed stacks with RtW + Favorable in all cases; IE RtW --> Favorable or Favorable --> RTW/

leeky baby · Nov 24, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

the reason why ranger spike teams use Fw and RTW os because if they have one of them up they still got x2 speed and +6 dmg.This is because the spirt can be kileld easy as its proberly on level 11 and the read the wind can be drained so they have more of a chance that they have one of them up if they got both,they also use winnowing for extra +4 dmg i dotn no if this stacks

mp3monster · Nov 24, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Well I know the winnowing stacks no matter what, this was proven in above posts. As for RtW being drained; how? You cant drain rtw and every spike team I run we always refresh rtw so its constantly up. So whats the benefit of having both rtw and favorable winds?