Curse

sleazeh · Nov 07, 2005, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Individually, within our guild we have fairly strong, knowledgeable players (albiet with less 8v8 experience than we would like, at the moment), and collectively, we have a good working knowledge of both character and team builds. We are looking to refine a couple of versions of a "balanced" 8 person team build for use in both tombs and GvG. Our hope is that we can find something that will serve well against most opposition, and on most map types. Other than issues of refining our teamwork and timing, we're finding that our damage output is not where we'd like it to be. We'd appreciate any constructive criticism along those lines, within the framework of the given concept. On the defensive side, even with only 2 monks (and the support of the more "utility" type characters), we are able to "hold and sustain" quite well, but any advice on that front is welcome as well.

Also, generating relevant discussion, and the opinions of others, is always of benefit, in my experience.

The build goals are:
-maintain a certain level of self-sufficiency in energy generation, either through OoB or the Inspired set
-mitigate and outlast spike damage from the inevitable IWAY, Ranger Spike, etc. groups
-as much hex removal and enchant removal as possible
-both offensive and defensive players supported and enabled by the utility players

Build:

1. Boon Protection Monk (Mo/Nec)
Divine Boon, Reversal of Fortune, Guardian, Protective Spirit, Offering of Blood (E), Mend Ailment, (res sig/other)

comments: We have found that res sig still sees some use on monks, although I concede that there is an argument to be made against using the 8th slot for that purpose. We rather have Aegis be cast by another player other than the monk, thereby freeing the monk to focus on dealing with "individual" protection where needed. Also the cast time/energy requirements of Aegis in a 2 monk setup is problematic.

2. Nickle Heal Monk (Mo/Nec)
Reversal Of Fortune, Dwayna's Kiss, Orison of Helaing, Heal Other, Healing Touch (self), Healing Seed, Offering of Blood (E), (res sig)

comments: Reversal still sees alot of useful action on what is otherwise a straight up healing monk. The same comments regarding the res sig can be applied here: we have found it useful to date, however I concede it may be worth swapping it out for another skill

3. Utility Resmer (Mes/Mo)
Aegis, Diversion, Signet of Weariness, Energy Surge (E), Energy Burn, Sympathetic Visage, Arcane Conundrum, Restore Life

comments: A fast cast hard res is a benefit, we feel. We delegate the aegis to this player, again, with some fast casting capability. Some energy denial (with damage as a side benefit), as well as a few anti-warrior/ranger measures.

4. Cursmer (Nec/Mes)
Spiteful Spirit (E), Desecrate Enchantments, Inspired Hex, Well of Profane, Arcane Echo, Malaise, Energy Tap, Res Sig

comments: at one point we had either lingering or panic in the elite slot, however spiteful (echoed if needed) versus IWAY and Ranger builds is a new strategy. More of a utility necro rather than offence.

5. Earth Ele (Ele/Mes)
Ward Against Melee, Obsidion Flame, Kinetic Armor, Stoning, Glyph of Renewal/Energy (E), Inspired Hex, Inspired Enchantment, Res Sig

comments: another "two-way" player than can contribute to both offence and defence. The choice of elite is often a matter of personal preference/contention. We'd like to up the damage capability without overdoing exhaustion or sacrificing too much of the defence/utility of this character.

6. Interupt/Runner Ranger (Ra/*)
Punishing Shot (E), Distracting Shot, Choking Gas, Pin Down, Throw Dirt, Storm Chaser, Read the Wind, Res Sig.

comments: can be the flag/relic runner as required, otherwise basic interupt ranger with a few useful add-ons (dirt, pin down)

7. Axe Warrior (Wa/Nec)
frenzy, sprint, penetrating blow, eviscerate (E), executioners, plague touch, res sig, fear me/strip enchant/for great justice/other *

comments: standard axe build. The 8th slot can be used according to preference/situation

8. Hammer Warrior (Wa/Ele)
frenzy, sprint, mighty blow, backbreaker (E), crushing blow, aftershock, res sig, fear me/for great justice/grasping earth/other*

comments: standard hammer build. The 8th slot is again open for personal preference.

*********

Against better teams, we would benefit from a third monk, but it doesn't help us in our damage output or utility...

Thanks in advance for any feedback, insightful commentary, or insight.

Batou of Nine · Nov 07, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Well. Very nicely thought out. It sounds like your guild is much like mine. We have only started to take GvG serious within the last month, so we have limited amount of people with 8v8 knowledge. We just made it into the top 1000 rank at 832nd (woohoo us!) so we are doing SOMETHING right...

MY Suggestions for your 8v8 Build...

From your Build goals you seem to definitly be heavy on the defensive side. You have 5-6 characters that are nearly completely utility or protection focused. Yes, you would survive quite along time against any build. However, like you say your overall dmg output is very low. I would say that versus a Spike dmg team or any overal dmg dealing team you would eventually lose out.

If you want a descent balance of The protection/utility that you have now, then free up two spots for any AoE dmg dealer. You could also get rid of one of your warriors and do well with just one (as my guild does). This i feel would work well, since with many utility and protection characers your group would usually ball up or at least stay close. The enemy team would most likely come straight at you as a group also. When you guys get AoE'd you could handle it, while your AoE characters took them out. Yes, kind of a lame explanation but it is very general for a reason. Test, try out this idea nd just figure out a good balance build between your current defense heavy build and dmg. And be creative!

Here's an example of creativity. Currently my guilds 8v8 build surrounds one skill and one skill only...Thunderclap. And thats all im going to offer on that one. Enjoy! Hope that all helped!

Schorny · Nov 07, 2005, 09:27 PM // 21:27

2 Monks is always a bit riscy to play with.

But the main problem I see is: all your chars have spread their points too far.

And most of your chars have too much to do. One can argue about Heal/Port-Monks instead of pure ones, but Number 3, 4 and 5 don't have a clear defined role - at least their skills are not dedicated enough.

Try to rework those 3 with a more direct idea what they should do.

rii · Nov 07, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

2 Monks is risky but your mo/me subs in as a quarter/monk replacement. Reversal seems really strong in the place of orison on hard pushed for places monks... prot monks seem to spend all day on their back so the anti spike is really useful.
For the purposes of putting crushing/as backbreaker might work, but apparantly with stoneskin you can fit in both with frenzy on anyway (stoneskin doesnt apply to backbreaker), so you might as well get devastating since its cheaper. Hammer bash is also a contender for utility, a longer kd chain isnt to be sneezed at. (devastating-mighty-bash-crushing-as)

Choking Gas is really sporadic for interrupters. Easy to use but if your good its not worth it over manual interrupts. Pick up savage shot and concussion (if you need a fourth). Serpents Quickness may be a contender over storm chaser if you decide flag running is not the most important thing.
Likewise, if your using them on enemy warriors and so on, throw dirt and pin down only work against teams without competent mend spammers. Apart from that, they work alright in flag runner 1v1's.

Im not a fan of things like kinetic armour and so on. If a team want to spike you, (the ele i mean) then your best to assume their gonna rend you beforehand. This means that stuff like kinetic armour is a waste of time, its just going to get stripped, and your better off putting in ward against foes or something similar that is persistant and harder to not get screwed by

I would suggest fitting martyr in somewhere. Things like vim teams get it in the face from martyr, and lots of teams think lathering conditions to add dps is a good idea. Martyr says no.

Malaise is bad, a good player will simply swap focus and get rid of it in about a second, and you dont have good enough energy management to spam it like hell and put them in some sort of weapon switch lock. Like kinetic armour, its a bit of a waste of space against a team that knows what its doing. May i also suggest drain enchantment over energy tap. It no longer drains energy to a respectable degree, and also doesnt give as much energy. Whatsmore drain.... drains enchantments! Perhaps put in parasitic bond somewhere. Its an unlinked 20s duration, is cheap, and so makes a good cover hex to stop them from point blank stripping spirit.

Healing seed has a 2s casting time, and while powerful thats some nasty stuff. Imagine you ran into your own team. Punishing shot with ease, and thats a bit of a waste. There are plenty of skills worth replacing it with, just pick one perhaps with a shorter casting time, although this is getting more towards my niche preferences. Lots of people use seed with success. In a ranger spike heavy world, maybe divine intervention.