Curse

rii · Nov 06, 2005, 11:38 AM // 11:38

But imagine a 4v4... it could be expressed as 4 x 1v1.... so as long as you drop your target, and everyone has a res sig, it comes down to who kills who first. If they then res, kill you, then you are ressed, you will kill them due to your superior killing skills, and thusly win. Obviously lots of other things can happen, but thats a broad generalisation.

Stormbringer · Nov 06, 2005, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

But imagine a 4v4... it could be expressed as 4 x 1v1.... so as long as you drop your target, and everyone has a res sig, it comes down to who kills who first. If they then res, kill you, then you are ressed, you will kill them due to your superior killing skills, and thusly win. Obviously lots of other things can happen, but thats a broad generalisation.

True. But the more YOU stay alive, as a warrior, the more damage you can spread, thus whether you die or not, your party has the ability to finish off the job...So in my example, staying alive is a good thing...

Man With No Name · Nov 06, 2005, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Why the hell are we bothering to explain..?? STILL oO

W/Mo's zealously believe that self-healing is the answer. Actually damaging foes, Enchantment removal, Stance breaking and interupting are all low priorities in their mindset.

"As long as we self-heal -- we get the win !!! 1337 !!!!"

errrr....no

This thread has run it's course -- we don't need anymore bad advice spread around -- we've enough W/Mo healers as is.
Warriors do DAMAGE in PvP -- you clearly don't want to do damage, despite multiple examples being posted -- you want to win the fight by attempting to "out-tank" the opponents.

You can't teach an old dog new tricks :'(

/Lock Request +1

rii · Nov 06, 2005, 12:11 PM // 12:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

True. But the more YOU stay alive, as a warrior, the more damage you can spread, thus whether you die or not, your party has the ability to finish off the job...So in my example, staying alive is a good thing...

The point is your self healing is not sufficient to keep you alive, and of course its possible they just wont attack you. No, its not a good thing.

Sir Santiago · Nov 06, 2005, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

True. But the more YOU stay alive, as a warrior, the more damage you can spread, thus whether you die or not, your party has the ability to finish off the job...So in my example, staying alive is a good thing...

Besides the fact that your self-heals are not nearly as good as a standard monk's (as already stated), if you're taking the time to heal, you're taking time off from killing your target.

On Strength of Honor & Judge's Insight as a W/Mo option for extra dmg output:

Strength of Honor @ lvl. 8 = 6 extra dmg per hit (7 @ lvl. 10)
Barbs @ lvl. 8 = 6 extra dmg per hit (7 @ lvl. 10)

What's my point? Strength of Honor only helps you. Barbs helps out your physical-damage-doing teammates = you take targets down faster, assuming you have other physical-damage dealers.

Judge's Insight @ lvl. 8 = 16 seconds of 20% armor penetration, holy dmg
Weaken Armor @ lvl. 8 = 26 seconds of -20 armor

Now, I realize these skills are doing different things, but I'd still take Weaken Armor to take down the target faster. Again, it's helping out your teammates just as much as it's helping you. In addition, you can just cast WA and go in and kill the target; with JI, you have to continuously recast it, interrupting the flow of damage. If you are in the midst of killing a target, say a monk, taking the time to recast Judge's Insight gives him extra time to heal/protect himself..

Like I said earlier, the only reason I will take /Mo secondary for Warrior in 4v4 is for Purge Condition or Purge Signet. Then again, there's Plague Touch..

smurfhunter · Nov 06, 2005, 03:40 PM // 15:40

doing damage isnt simply "look! -5 hp!"

if you spend the whole afternoon griefing someone, say attacking for 10 damage every 2 seconds, your gonna do something like 300 damage a minute, and like 18,000 an hour, etc. you get the picture.

otoh, an axe warrior will probably do a grand total of 500 damage to one guy (in a normal 1 min team arena fight), but the difference is that one guy is dead.

so the question is, why did 500 damage kill him from an axe warrior while 18,000 damage from the paladin didnt?

the answer (and this should be obvious) is that if someone is healing himself, they can heal for X damage per second and be just fine. do more than X damage and they die, do less and nothing happens.

if as a paladin, you are using your self heals to 'stay alive longer' thus allowing you to do 'more damage', you should realize that in effect you are doing absolutely nothing. the amount of damage a paladin does is so pitifully small that a mesmer spamming ether feast can outheal it.

so all in all, sure you spend alot more time alive, you just dont do anything in that time. and this isnt counting the times where someone actually bothers to kill you.

Stormbringer · Nov 06, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

doing damage isnt simply "look! -5 hp!"

if you spend the whole afternoon griefing someone, say attacking for 10 damage every 2 seconds, your gonna do something like 300 damage a minute, and like 18,000 an hour, etc. you get the picture.

otoh, an axe warrior will probably do a grand total of 500 damage to one guy (in a normal 1 min team arena fight), but the difference is that one guy is dead.

so the question is, why did 500 damage kill him from an axe warrior while 18,000 damage from the paladin didnt?

the answer (and this should be obvious) is that if someone is healing himself, they can heal for X damage per second and be just fine. do more than X damage and they die, do less and nothing happens.

if as a paladin, you are using your self heals to 'stay alive longer' thus allowing you to do 'more damage', you should realize that in effect you are doing absolutely nothing. the amount of damage a paladin does is so pitifully small that a mesmer spamming ether feast can outheal it.

so all in all, sure you spend alot more time alive, you just dont do anything in that time. and this isnt counting the times where someone actually bothers to kill you.

Yes yes, 500 dmg, I really want to see you kill my monk with your silly little axe........pff, only mesmers and rangers can really kill a monk you moron!

I'm going to say this ONE LAST TIME.
DROP IT!
THIS THREAD IS MADE FOR PALADINS AND THAT IS ALL. POINT. FINAL. STROKE.
IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO SAY IN ORDER TO CONTRIBUTE TO THIS THREAD THEN PLZ, DO NOT POST HERE!!

JYX · Nov 06, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by smurfhunter

what are you trying to make this thread into? the "gw losers hangout" or something? a place for all the palanoobs to cry together about why everyone else wants to kill them?

I prefer loladins.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

Cause I do not burn all our monks energy

Intentional or not, you raise a decent point. Theres plenty of ways of adding to your monk's energy which doesn't include the need to use really bad self-heals/prots. Succor on 2 monks for instance combined with Battle Rage for full adrenal offense.

On another note some peeps on this thread are serious competitors for the new Ian Boyd

rii · Nov 06, 2005, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Yeah, everous

Red Locust · Nov 07, 2005, 01:48 AM // 01:48

You guys need to straighten up. Granted, Paladins aren't the best build around, but if the man wants to discuss them, either follow suit or stay out of the thread. This isn't an instant messaging service, it's a forum about discussing builds. Useless one-liner posts belong on PMs.

entropy · Nov 07, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Do people really need to argue simple math? Only mesmers or rangers can kill a real monk? So then all the monks in Ca/TA must suck even though I do it all the time. I mean they aren't real monks right? I mean no GvG team runs an Axe warrior because they never do enough spike dmg to kill a monk right??? Stormbringer you act like your the only one with any logic yet your logic is total bullshit. Spike is the metagame. Constant damage can suck a monks ass. They can just go use orison to heal everyone then for gods sakes. You keep complaining about the 6-28 axe damage range well you know what eviscerate has an auto deep wound so 20% is gone +the damage you do. I am much much much more scared of 1 hammer warrior than 4 paladins. OMG you just bleed me again and again and that will kille me yea fo sure!. Mend ailemnt FTW. Galrath+final is pitiful in comparison the Eviscerate+executioners. yes eviscerate is elite but what else are you gonna use as a sword warrior what elite? Battle rage? That just doesn't spike very well as its not an IAS. Hundred blades sucks unless you are hugely buff stacked which a warrior cannot pull of. Your posts lean toward swords and all you try to do is justify your use for them. Even though this has been explained again and again do a fricking search read with an open mind and learn. Until the metagame changes paladins suck. Thats about it.

Sharpe_116 · Nov 07, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

W/mo ... are... meh meh for pvp.... if the main reason i would use a war monk would be to atrract all the fire power from casters.... let them smack me around, i would be able to tank there for a quite long while... but the problem is... people are not idiots. They see that a tank is clubbing their monk. they ignore it, KILL EVERYONE ELSE, then kill the warrior. Now the thing with average damage.... is so un true. U could carry galraths, final, pure strike, etc. warrior attack spells, they deal like 30 damage..... but if u load um all up and let em rip

u could take any caster out.

Now personally i dont use a w/mo for pvp. I use my w/mo as a solo/ team SMITER. He using a fu@#4ng WAND FOR GODS SAKES. he has about 1 point into swordminship or any other thing. I some times just put any randon meele wep onto him so hell run up to the enemy. All his attributes r into smiting and healing, and a lil tactics. this is how i play him, Rush into them, slap on my stance, load up breeze and mending, and while hes healing and stanced, i smite like a crazy lil sh#$. I can keep my self alive and deal more damage than any axe or sword warrior.

Im not at home but ill try to remember the build

Balz spirit
Balz aura
symbol of wrath
bonnetis or glads i dont remember which...
mending
breeze
if im not using glads stance it will be sheild of judgement.
also, mabye spell breaker depending on what im going into
( dont count in SOJ and spell breaker into the build, im just stating the what if's.)
And healing hands (what if) all the elite skills are cycled around depending on what i need for the trip, but healing hands is what i normmaly use

whatch yourself

Feel free to comment

qwe4rty · Nov 07, 2005, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

Helllooooo, Earth calling qwe4rty, Do you copy?
Palas have the caster run skills too if you didn't notice, yes they are warriors too, OOOOOOOHHHH!!!!, plus they are NOT healer dependent (xcept in GVG and TOOMBS).

That was exactly my point........, someone said that paladins were better at getting behind enemy lines, I said all warriors could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

Low damage output????

Go to a psy.

Only noob paladins do that. GET REAL!

Yes, low damage out put. Why?
Your focusing in Weapon proficiency, Strength, and Heal.
Unless I'm wrong, HEAL does not damage enemies.

Warriors have the strongest armor, and should be targetted last, they do not need a whole attribute line for heal. If you want to heal your allies, be a monk, so you can have more mana, be more focussed in the Heal attribute, and divine favor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

Yep, like I thought, you're blind.

This was concerning monks running from paladins or anything else.
When I play monk, I do NOT run from a paladin UNLESS I've been spiked and am low, and dont care for bleed/deep wound
When I see others play monk, same thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

If he knows what to use he can do that quite fast. Faster than an axe user.

I believe Final thrust is what, 10 adrenaline? and it clears all that you have stored? Not to mention Final is conditional, they have to be less than 50% for it to be any good. How are you going to get them below 50% w/ just galrath slash and bleeding? Thats what i thought.
Eviscerate = 7 adrenaline, no conditions

I'm NOT against W/Mos at all. When people say paladin, more than likely, they are referring to a healer like the prebuild, not any warrior with monk secondary.
I have no grief against W/Mos, I infact love them for another attribute line.
All im trying to say is that a warrior w/ self heal attribute line is INEFFICIENT

Stormbringer · Nov 08, 2005, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

Yes, low damage out put. Why?
Your focusing in Weapon proficiency, Strength, and Heal.
Unless I'm wrong, HEAL does not damage enemies.

Oh man, in the builds I posted i focused on heal, cause in C.A., if you kill a player, OUUUUPS, maybe another one comes and kills you since you do not have any heal nor monk, even if you have endure pain, you're screwed!!! G'day life, I'll miss ya!

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

Warriors have the strongest armor, and should be targetted last,

OOUPS, and if they are targeted? If you have no monk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

This was concerning monks running from paladins or anything else.
When I play monk, I do NOT run from a paladin UNLESS I've been spiked and am low, and dont care for bleed/deep wound
When I see others play monk, same thing.

Strange, I see only running monks everywhere....

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

I believe Final thrust is what, 10 adrenaline? and it clears all that you have stored? Not to mention Final is conditional, they have to be less than 50% for it to be any good. How are you going to get them below 50% w/ just galrath slash and bleeding? Thats what i thought.
Eviscerate = 7 adrenaline, no conditions

KK, I can respect that, but as I said, leave me to my noble sword and I'll leave you to your noble axe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwe4rty

I'm NOT against W/Mos at all. When people say paladin, more than likely, they are referring to a healer like the prebuild, not any warrior with monk secondary.
I have no grief against W/Mos, I infact love them for another attribute line.
All im trying to say is that a warrior w/ self heal attribute line is INEFFICIENT

Thank you! but, you should say INSUFFICIENT, not INEFICIENT!

QuixotesGhost · Nov 08, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

OOUPS, and if they are targeted? If you have no monk?

If you are targeted -

A. You are facing a newbie team and would've beaten them anyway.

B. You are the last one left... probaly becuase instead of adding to the offense you selfishly brought skills that only help yourself instead of the team.

We can't make it clearer to you stormbringer, self-heals hurt your team.

entropy · Nov 08, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

WTf is with the OUUPS?? Your recent posts make you sound even more retarded than before. Its inneficient. Not insufficient. Insufficient means that its not enough. Inneficient means that there are better things or ways to do things. Since you have heavy armor you don't need many heals so its sufficient. It is inneficient because there are better things to do with skill slots and att points. The running monks are kiting you and its pretty easy to do too. If another person comes and kills you well at least you killed the other person first. Otherwise you might not have killed the person in the first place.
BTW its random arena. If you seriously think you are good by playing there well you are sadly mistaken. Its random teams. 90% of the time the team with a decent monk will win. C.A. Is for simply farming faction or trying out new builds. psh if you lose their get over it.

qwe4rty · Nov 08, 2005, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

Oh man, in the builds I posted i focused on heal, cause in C.A., if you kill a player, OUUUUPS, maybe another one comes and kills you since you do not have any heal nor monk, even if you have endure pain, you're screwed!!! G'day life, I'll miss ya!

You still have the largest armor in the game. By your reasoning, everyone should have monk secondary with heal? Or is it only guys with the most armor?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

OOUPS, and if they are targeted? If you have no monk?

Well, since you do have the larget armor in game, you will last longest. If you focus on Damage, you and your team can actually kill them before they kill you, that is, if you don't attack there warriors first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

Strange, I see only running monks everywhere....

Bring sprint, thats all you need. What does self healing have to do with running monks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

KK, I can respect that, but as I said, leave me to my noble sword and I'll leave you to your noble axe.

I have nothing against swords. I'm just saying, the way you are playing sword isnt making the best of its abilities. From what I've found, W/Mo is better with axe than sword. If you want to stay with sword, go W/Nec w/ virulence.
You'll get max degen vs them and tons of other conditions.
Bleeding (sever artery), poison (virulence) , disease (virulence), deep wound (gash), weakness (virulence), cripple (hamstring), and you still have room for galrath and final.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

Thank you! but, you should say INSUFFICIENT, not INEFICIENT!

Actually, no. Insufficient is not enough. inefficient is not efficient

You arnt going to be able to take the best from your healing spells as you would if you were a monk. Why? The mana costs stay the same, no matter how many attributes you put in. When your monk, your getting more HP per Heal per energy spent.
To take the healing line as a warrior, your getting less HP per Heal per energy spent, and guess what? You have no divine favor, and you have a very small energy pool, and very slow energy regain.

Manfred · Nov 08, 2005, 09:39 PM // 21:39

I dunno, swords are good for 2 reasons: they don't need an elite to be NEARLY as good as pure axe and they don't require high att. points since they don't rely on crits like axes do.

So if you can stick 12 in sword and still be decent, that lets you a) have more attribute points to buff *clap* YOU up. and b) use an elite to do things other than deal damage.

So sword warriors, if they're good, will do things like apply hella conditions and use distracting, or use warrior's endurance and go pbaoe, or, or or...

Axe warriors just go in and do their thing, which is good, but sword warriors can do a LOT of things, which makes them more fun for me to play.

qwe4rty · Nov 08, 2005, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manfred

I dunno, swords are good for 2 reasons: they don't need an elite to be NEARLY as good as pure axe and they don't require high att. points since they don't rely on crits like axes do.

So if you can stick 12 in sword and still be decent, that lets you a) have more attribute points to buff *clap* YOU up. and b) use an elite to do things other than deal damage.

So sword warriors, if they're good, will do things like apply hella conditions and use distracting, or use warrior's endurance and go pbaoe, or, or or...

Axe warriors just go in and do their thing, which is good, but sword warriors can do a LOT of things, which makes them more fun for me to play.

I agree. I realize I may have given the impression that I favor axe over swords, but its all on the build. All I'm trying to point out is that there are WAY better things to allocate points into then take monk secondary for healing.
A good warrior can be one of the nastiest scariest things to have on you. They may do less damage the a spiking air elementalist at times, but they're damage is sustained, when built right. And unlock an elementalist, you can't just shake 3 wands at it and have it fall down. (Major exaggeration, I know, but you get my point).

Sure, in PvE, a WELL-BUILT W/Mo can certainly solo his fair share of things. I think someone posted the build, earlier, but I'm not entirely sure. If not, the OP can msg me or something and I'll say that thing, but I'm mostly focused on the PvP aspect, which I think everyone responiding means.

While sure, you may notice that hey, "I'm lasting longer than that W/Mo over there who doesn't have any heal spells", thats not really the point here. The point is winning, not King of the Hill. Sure, if they had an arena where it was based on whoever lasted longest, bring self-heals. However, thats not how PvP is structured.

I'm going to try to point out a couple of the problems with W/Mo healers

A) They have a small energy pool.

B) Combined with a small energy regain rate, you can only cast the heal spells a few times

C) Because Warriors are melee, if they stop to heal, that just lets there target get away

D) A warrior wishes to do damage, therefore they need to invest heavily in there
-Weapon Attribute
-Strength
By taking heal spells, they have to take points AWAY from damage, and skill slots AWAY from damage skills, in order to make room for healing.
Because a warrior can't invest very highly in Healing OR Divine Favor, the net HP gain PER point of energy is very low. I mean VERY low

E) Warriors have the highest base armor in the game, and will therefor be attacked last. While you can argue that you may NOT be targetted last, in most cases, it's another paladin attacking you who doesn't know any better. In that case, your almost guaranteed a win anyways.

F) Because of the Above, and the fact that the other team will notice that the warrior is healing himself, they will recognize that that particular warrior is not as big a threat as:
-A monk
-A mesmer
-A elementalist
-A necromancer
-A warrior who is more focused on damage

In that case, they WILL target the self healing warrior last. So what can the self-healing warrior do?

-Do mediocre damage to the other team
-"AHA, HEAL MY TEAM MATES"

Well, as you can see, Healing your teamates is as Inefficient as healing yourself when your a Warrior for the same reasons. Low Energy, No energy management, Low HP gain PER point of energy spent

So effectively, that Warrior just turned himself into a monk trying to care for his allies. Well, if thats what you are going to do, just play as a MONK who can reap the most benefits from healing spells, who can WAND enemy casters for aroundish 15-20 dmg.