Curse

JYX · Nov 06, 2005, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

No, i meant that say if you used 3 warriors, which is really the maximum amount, one guy could still disable all of them to a large degree. Whether you actually use 3 warriors is besides the point.

I know exactly what you meant. No. No you can't.
You can use 5 really really ripped warriors if you feel like it. Some do.
Point being, you got 3 monks and 3 casters behind your warriors. Warrior "spike" builds aren't really about warrior spike at all, most are about disruption, disenchanting, hexing, interrupting etc etc.

rii · Nov 06, 2005, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Sigh, buggy ie again deleted my long post.

I know what warrior spike is and what it contains in general. However, most teams dont prepare/dont bother to compete with the level of shutdown on warriors that can exist, even higher level teams. Even if they do (which is quite a compromise in caster levels) stuff like humility can knock big chunks out of warrior spike, as you well know.
In terms of amount of spiking the above team is fairly similar to a warrior spike, but instead of shutdown it relies on unpredictablity but still keeps large amounts of enchant removal/hex removal. In a game where atm everyone is prepared to run into warriors/warrior-based teams it could be argued this is stronger since it isnt prepared for very much. Maybe im wrong, but id like some reasons (you aint gonna give em though

)

JYX · Nov 06, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Makes no difference. Look specifically at the things that will shut a warrior down. They are neither complete shutdowns nor are they particularly easy to use. Soothing images costs a lot and takes a long time to cast. Same problem with Shadow of Fear. Condition shutdowns aren't reliable. Counters are rife.

I'm still not sure you're fully understanding what I mean when I say most warrior spikes aren't really about the warriors. Mass hexing/disrupting/interrupting works on anybody. Backfire/Shame/Whatever not only works on the necro/mesmer screwing over the warrior, it also works on monks, eles, mesmers...loladins >.> This is in no way a compromise in caster levels. In essence, the warriors are there to provide the final poke when the enemy's already been thoroughly abused by your casters.

Warriors are versatile. You might be able to shut down evisc/exe with a signet of humility, but thats not gonna stop him chucking out a few hundred points of damage even without. Axes get continually high damages even without any skills, looking at your IWAY groups, you can get 100+ dmg using no skills, just normal attacks under 2 enchants and 1 spirit. He can spike, but he can also switch to dps, he can easily switch targets, he can run about without needing to ball.

By contrast in this "spike" your mo/e can do 94 damage every what...15-30 seconds by your guess...in doing so he sacrifices a portion of his healing power and all of his energy management. I would also refute that most people are prepared against good warrior spikes. To be prepared against that is to be prepared against not only 2 warriors but an array of anti-caster and anti-melee tricks, disenchants and disruption that your 3 casters can throw out at any time. People now are prepared against IWAY. This is not representative in any way.

By contrast are you saying people will somehow be surprised that you're using casters? Hexing normal monks is no different to hexing your monks. Mass interrupting, energy draining. No I'd say people have been prepared against this build right from the start.

rii · Nov 06, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Actually, passing the ungainliness, images and shackles puts a warrior down. No adrenaline and no energy... well that’s anyone screwed, but given some fast casting and decent energy management, it can be done to a level where its not 100%, but then again it doesn’t need to. Especially if you have visage, which means if you slow adren intake to a snails pace, then hit visage, spiking can be almost slowed to a stand still.

I agree conditions are bull, but against the scrubs enfeebling blood spam/enfeeble/blinding flash bot/crippling shot can actually put them down- A topic for another day’s discussion perhaps.

When i was talking about compromise in caster levels i was talking about the requirements for hex removal, since most ingrained removes like inspired on monks don’t have the balls to keep your team clean... at some stage against someone with a wand and a bit of dedication compromises are going to have to be made if you don’t want hexes over your primary damage dealers. As for the idea that your casters are going to have done significant amounts of damage, I know what you mean; warrior spike is more than just hitting them hard. However against an instantaneous spike (I’m going to assume the players on either a warrior team or the flame/gaze team know what they’re doing) it doesn’t matter how screwed the enemy protection monk is (for example). Either they hit the rof or they don’t, and against a perfect spike (against assuming its done right) we all know they can’t. All warrior teams do is shaft them to make it less likely they’ll hit the rof, which is unnecessary (perhaps), whereas monk spike has superior defenses in place of this shutdown, since if they do hit the spike right, we all know it’s not possible to hit the rof at all. (As for monk dps; they’ve got wands right

)

In general, dps doesn’t win games, spike does. Against for example the above team, i would say that its one of the few teams that can match iway dps with hps toe for toe, if anyone can, which is one of the exceptions where dps can just steamroller over people.

The spike is more than every 15s. Energy-flame-flame-energy-flame is the 15s cycle, that’s 3 spikes per 30s, or 1 every 10s on average. That’s more than reasonable, and warrior’s actual damage spike comes on similar terms. As i said above, I’m fairly sure spike is what you need to win, and in this monk team that means the only thing I’ve bothered with IS spike, and the spike is equal to warriors in terms of killing, and the level of enchantment stripping is also equal roughly to warrior teams. All that’s really happened is I’ve taken away the dps aspect of the team of warriors, left the spike, and put in a crap load of defensive skills, in the hope that 5 copies of rof and so on is going to mean my team is protected fully against whatever the other team throws at you. You cannot deny that the monk team has better defense against hex and general caster inflicted caster hate, aside from stuff that there isn’t much to do about (interrupts and so on – which are rare anyway)

Just for a second, I’d like to compare what the healing abilities of my team are against a normal 2 healer / 1 protection monk team.

Normal Team
Just say, 1 Boon Healer with orison, other, boon, and touch, 1 kiss healer, (same but with kiss for boon), and a standard protection monk:

Stats for the Healers:
Divine Favor: 11+1
Healing: 10+4
Inspiration: 10

Boon Healer:

Orison: 67 + 36 +61 = 164
Other: 170 + 36 + 61 = 267
Touch: 129 (inc. Bonus) + 61 = 190

Kiss Healer:

Orison: 67 + 36 = 103
Other: 170 + 36 = 206
Touch: 129 (inc. Bonus)

Then the Protection monk heals for 36 per cast, x amount on rof, then 66 per other condition on mend ailment.

Against the monk team above:

Boon Healer:

Rof: Variable (up to 32 only) + 36 + 61 = 97 + variable
Other: 141 + 36 + 61 = 238
Touch: 181 (inc. bonuses)

There are three of these guys, and they’re healing is actually fairly similar to your above, solo, boon healer. I don’t think there has been any compromise on healing, in fact there seems to have been a simple increase of a couple of times. (The lesser healing, but healer x three… I’m erring on caution)

As for the kiss healer, there is no comparable on my team, its all boon. But to include it, I’ll show the other non-healer non-protection monks:

Hex Remover: 45 + 70 = 115 per cast of…whatever. Also has a 260hp divine healing, with divine favor and boon bonus triggering on only himself (I assume)

Prot Spirit Bot: 30+ max 70 variable heal on rof, 30 on protective spirit

Party Healer: 67 heal party; don’t know what happens with divine favor and boon bonus here. A 193 Divine Healing, and +25 health on seed.
Boon Protection Dodger: 30+ 55 + 61 per other condition on mend ailment, 30+55 on draw, 30+55 on guardian.

That’s everyone, except the Favor bonus on holy veil on the monk warrior and the divine healing, but that’s negligible. Somehow, a team like that does not come across as having compromised on healing.

In terms of energy management, BiP is the best in the game. I know when we played ta a while back and I was bipping, you only had unlimited energy due to oob on top of that, but that was since I wasn’t running bip on you the whole time. Whatsmore, I don’t need unlimited energy, I need enough. The standard monk healer uses their elite and several skill slots for energy management, and achieves around +3 pips. This team has half the team using their elites for damage complementing, and the other skills (not even as many – that’s why resurrection signet is everywhere) for more protection (wards). BiP on the mo/n gives 5 pips, 2 more than a decked out inspiration monk. There is no energy issue in this team.

Obviously, people cant be ready to counter everything that a team can throw at them, stopping interrupts, hexes, enemy enchantments, pure damage, dots, conditions, and full blown locks like knock down, blackout, and power block are un-scope-able. However, a team like the one above can comfortably deal with mass hexes, dots, conditions, pure damage. It drops off a little at enemy enchantments and interrupts, and of course everyone falls at kd and so on, since generally its not worth it.

Whatsmore, take the example of shame on a monk. Normal teams go: ‘o noes, shame, get a hex removal fast fast fast’ in this team, the hex removal is massive, and If its put on the hex remover, it could even be the situation that he just casts past it, and watches his energy bar rocket back up with bip on. A normal team, would actually be a little bit screwed (although shame isn’t on the level of ‘owned’) this team could potentially ignore a lot of hexes if it so felt in the mood.

I’m not saying people will be surprised to see 8 monks, I’m saying, like above, most people don’t bring enough anti-caster to stop 8 casters. Obviously, when most people then use 8 casters, there is a mix of roles, like 4 eles, 1 necro, 3 monks, and so it becomes obvious who to cast it on: the monks: once the monks drop, be leisurely with the rest of them. The above team however, has 8 monks, more or less all capable of healing. So if you come prepared for 3 monks, you take out three, then the other 5 are still able to run until the others are back in action. Unless you bring a crap load of anti casters there will usually always be someone capable of stopping you from killing the target.

‘Mass Interrupting’ – Rare. Works against anyone- Mass interrupts is lots of rangers, and frankly you and I both know how possible it is to distract whatever the other team bring; eviscerate, signet of devotion, heal other- all are taken down by mass interrupting.
‘Energy Draining’ – Strong, but against bip it has difficulties. Even a debil spammer might let a few spells past against bippers, and apart from that and weariness spam (which I have never actually seen), the only other thing now energy drain and all that has been nerfed is energy surge, which is spike energy denial, and again doesn’t do much against bip.

So no, I would say people are prepared against casters, but not against 8 monks, and there is a difference.

Just to put it into reference on to what people often bring, here is a few links:

iQ vim! Build: They said it’s outdated, and a few things like naked debilitating shot are, but vim teams have made a return.
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27863
You may note how there is no anti-caster here beyond debilitating shot (now nerfed), one copy of distract, one copy of diversion (now nerfed) and fear me (nerfed)/weariness, which is average. That sir is reasonable, but it’s not enough to take down 8 monks in terms of shutdown.

Negative Zero: SoH JI Build quite similar to the warrior spike I know you’re thinking about, but with a few changes:
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27635
Has no anti-caster to speak of beyond enchantment stripping (applies to everyone), and kd chain, which again is universal.

Here is one build from FnlD, I don’t know whether they run it, but these guys have probably got a better chance of winning than the two above:
http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...t=30183&page=2
That my man, is 4 power blocks: S. I would think the monk team could easily rof past wastrels worry, but I’m not going into the gory details of this vs that. But I suppose this is just me>mo as it should be.

mortalis doleo · Nov 06, 2005, 04:31 PM // 16:31

i've been gone for a few hours and look what happenes

i see that i wont convince you my build could work, and it might not... but im still working on it, and you haven't said anything to help, you only criticised...

i dont wanna defent it anymore, since it is leading no where, just like i thought it will.

rii · Nov 06, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Thing is, what happens in 'forums', is that 'people' make 'topics' in 'threads' to 'discuss', and after making a point/discussion subject people then reply, 'on topic'.
The topic of this build was whether the build i posted was viable and was me trying to stimulate a discussion as to just how good warriors are atm.
You can in and said 'i think my build is better' (which is unrelated) and then posted it, due to Everous, who is a flammable character.
This process is known as 'thread jacking' since you are deviating from the original topic.
If you have a 'topic' of your own to make, then the general rule is make your own 'thread' and then i will help you out (promise

)
As it stands, i was trying to get on topic as fast as possible, as you could tell by me saying 'can i have some comments on the op now

' and similar. I didnt meant to flame you

JYX · Nov 06, 2005, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

When i was talking about compromise in caster levels i was talking about the requirements for hex removal, since most ingrained removes like inspired on monks don’t have the balls to keep your team clean... at some stage against someone with a wand and a bit of dedication compromises are going to have to be made if you don’t want hexes over your primary damage dealers.

All hex removal can be used with pretty much nothing in the attribute for it to be effective. Certain builds such as subverter mesmers and most eles have a lot of spare time. Also I'd like to point out with 2 simple buffs and 1 spirit warriors can easily hit for over 100 dmg a shot with nothing on it. No adren needed no energy needed. That is why the hexes on warriors look so mean...because they're buffed as hell anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

I know what you mean; warrior spike is more than just hitting them hard. However against an instantaneous spike (I’m going to assume the players on either a warrior team or the flame/gaze team know what they’re doing) it doesn’t matter how screwed the enemy protection monk is (for example). Either they hit the rof or they don’t, and against a perfect spike (against assuming its done right) we all know they can’t.

You're underestimating the difficulties of actually producing a spike. This is one advantage of the defenders, they WILL get at least RoF in. For a start the latency on Vent will throw you out of synch, then you have different reaction times for different people. Then you got the actual difficulties of in-game synching. One foot too far means you gotta run a few meters, means you've given them a window. If you happen to get hexed a second before you agree to do a spike, someone has to remove it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

All warrior teams do is shaft them to make it less likely they’ll hit the rof, which is unnecessary (perhaps), whereas monk spike has superior defenses in place of this shutdown, since if they do hit the spike right, we all know it’s not possible to hit the rof at all. (As for monk dps; they’ve got wands right

)

Not quite. You can't wand ANYONE if you're doing a caster spike. I have a problem with this build in that it has no disruption whatsoever. The enemy caster will respond. Your "spike" isn't so large that a single heal won't completely screw it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

In general, dps doesn’t win games, spike does. Against for example the above team, i would say that its one of the few teams that can match iway dps with hps toe for toe, if anyone can, which is one of the exceptions where dps can just steamroller over people.

DPS helps in all circumstances. Especially when a warrior can be pumping out insane amounts. When hits go into three figures a piece, is this not spike? Yet they do it every swing. The difference between DPS and spike is not as clear cut as that. The idea that the person you're going to be swinging at is already at 2/3 health or at least not full health...and that after your spike you have something to follow up with. That helps. A lot.

Interrupts are not rare. Ranger interrupter spammers are rife. Since you're not doing all that much damage to begin with, a flame gets interrupted and you're all pooed out. If this build did a 1000 damage spike or even 700 I wouldn't even bring this point up. But since you're scraping the barrel anyway...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Party Healer: 67 heal party; don’t know what happens with divine favor and boon bonus here. A 193 Divine Healing, and +25 health on seed.
Boon Protection Dodger: 30+ 55 + 61 per other condition on mend ailment, 30+55 on draw, 30+55 on guardian.

You get divine favor only on yourself, I don't think you get boon at all...if so then again its only on yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

That’s everyone, except the Favor bonus on holy veil on the monk warrior and the divine healing, but that’s negligible. Somehow, a team like that does not come across as having compromised on healing.

Ask around on division of labour. Just because everyone has all the pieces does not mean its as efficient for them to assemble all these pieces individually. Its also not as efficient for everyone to put down all the healing, hex removal etc they WILL be completely bombarded with due to a complete lack of disruption and go spike someone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

In terms of energy management, BiP is the best in the game. I know when we played ta a while back and I was bipping, you only had unlimited energy due to oob on top of that, but that was since I wasn’t running bip on you the whole time. Whatsmore, I don’t need unlimited energy, I need enough. The standard monk healer uses their elite and several skill slots for energy management, and achieves around +3 pips. This team has half the team using their elites for damage complementing, and the other skills (not even as many – that’s why resurrection signet is everywhere) for more protection (wards). BiP on the mo/n gives 5 pips, 2 more than a decked out inspiration monk. There is no energy issue in this team.

A decked out inspiration monk doesn't need to use a spell which has far worse damage/energy ratio than flare. He also doesn't need to remove any enchants. Even so, a decked out insp monk...especially a boon one still has energy problems, this is particularly true of any team which foregoes shutdown for plain defense. I don't see how you can make grand claims like that by just looking at stats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

‘Mass Interrupting’ – Rare. Works against anyone- Mass interrupts is lots of rangers, and frankly you and I both know how possible it is to distract whatever the other team bring; eviscerate, signet of devotion, heal other- all are taken down by mass interrupting.

Doesn't work so hot on warriors. Even if evisc/exe is taken down, you'll overpower the rangers by brute force. tbh interrupting warriors is an exercise in futility. They can dish stuff out faster and cheaper than you can put it back in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

So no, I would say people are prepared against casters, but not against 8 monks, and there is a difference.

Right. So...because you have...lots of casters...you're good? Actually, I can dig it. Overloading the enemy team with quantity works. If you up the damage this spike deals out by ~100 somehow I'm willing to say it works. The rest of the team is solid. Its not uncounterable by any means and you're missing the point entirely if you think it makes warriors obsolete.

rii · Nov 06, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

......buggy ie wont let me quote you for some reason, so im just going to reply point for point:

- They wont have a lot of time if they're put together well, and if they have any long periods of casting style things (you know what i mean) then they're hardly in a reactive enough state to remove vital hexes. Take a look at the links I ..... linked. Most of their non-monk casters had full time jobs (in terms of skill usage), maybe they just were poorly constructed, but those builds were pulled from the upper eshelons as it were, so if they cant do it, I doubt anyone else can.
100 damage? Take 25 as standard strike (no crits etc), +17 ootv, +17 oop, +4 winnowing. = 63. As i was saying to the other guy, spirits often get owned hard, so I think 100 damage a hit is a taking the piss a little bit dont you? They hit for fairly high damage sure, but 100 damage it is not.

- I think thats a little narrow... ever seen an ele spike done properly? I know you have, you were there when we got owned by it

. They also work more or less to the hp, and well executed ele spikes are around and killing. There are several ways of coordinating spikes that dont go totally over vent. One guy said something about using a bot on vent to countdown, reducing lag, and another on XoO said (this was for their flame spike team) that they simply used the ingame clock and got a perfect spike 90% of the time. As for human error beyond that, I think its unfair to give the attackers all this lag, and then assume the defenders are getting nothing as well

Whatsmore, prot monks also have the time to move their mouse and click. Sounds trivial, but any human error on one side can be equally applied to the other team. Basically, Im using ele air spike as precedent, until nr/smite it was the build that everyone ran... so im assuming all those prot monks arent all that

- Wanding was a joke man. The lack of disruption is a point, its mainly reactive, but as I said, well done spike (not perfect - just well done) bypasses any attempt by the caster to react, thus meaning disruption isnt necessary. In a dps/spike mix team, disruption is key, granted.

- Again, ill challenge the triple figure idea, see above. Again, Ill flag up many successful ele spikes (and others) that could all fall to interrupt and dont because its not that rife. Just because we use it doesnt mean everyone else does. Most spikes are scraping the barrel, but perhaps i could bring frenzy up.... that pushes the damage into the bigger numbers, and as i said op taking out attackers would be a primary focus (mainly due to frenzy). Most people say they predict if someone is going to spike them, but if you have say 2/3 warriors they physically cant cancel frenzy evey 10s in case it might be them. Whatsmore this is a non-projectile spike so no chance.

- Id assume if df goes off so does boon. That healing is getting a little bit towards the extras than primary though so if it doesnt, then whatever.

-Division of labour? Ill just take the source as a quick reference:
Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, Book 1, Chapter 1, ‘Of the Division of Labour’
http://www.econlib.org/library/Smith/smWN.html

Division of labour is dividing the process of making whatever into its separate parts, thus meaning efficiency goes up, meaning output and thus profits go up. I’m not going to claim expertise, nor competence, but in this case (if you really want to apply it) Smith would agree with the idea of separating hex removal, damage, healing, protection, energy management, and so on into separate roles, making each person do their particular job correctly. However, Smith would also appreciate that there is a limited labour force, and therefore roles either have to be eliminated that are unnecessary or they have to be consolidated. In this case, I have separated hex removal from the other characters, who then focus on damage/healing/ or protection. Prot has also been separated into damage mitigation and evade. You say we will get bombarded by disruption, but in reality that boils down to damage hexes and conditions. Hexes are dealt with harshly, conditions owned sufficiently well, and damage is taken care of, except at the moment of the spike. However, ‘lasting’ protection like wards, aegis, prot spirit, lessen the chance of getting owned in this small period.

- Damage/Energy isn’t important. In fact, taking out the exhaustion, it’s not so bad. And frankly, it’s of no matter. Monks will have energy problems, but a monk with more energy management and the support of lots of other healers isn’t going to have as many as just 2 monks on their own. Saying 2 monks have problems with +3 pips aren’t the same as 6 monks with +5 pips.

- Its harder and that’s fair enough, but in a metagame prevalent of warriors/rangers does that not infer that interrupters have less worth, and therefore there arent that many of them in gvg where every space counts, and therefore putting people in just in case is not an option?

- Not good, merely unexpected and more likely less prepared for. This team isn’t what is meant to make warriors obsolete, not that I even said that in the first place. What I meant was that out of all the damage output sources warriors at the moment look the weakest until proven otherwise (which hasn’t happened yet). Squeezing another 100 damage out of this is doable, but I cant be bothered at the moment.

JYX · Nov 06, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

- They wont have a lot of time if they're put together well, and if they have any long periods of casting style things (you know what i mean) then they're hardly in a reactive enough state to remove vital hexes. Take a look at the links I ..... linked. Most of their non-monk casters had full time jobs (in terms of skill usage), maybe they just were poorly constructed, but those builds were pulled from the upper eshelons as it were, so if they cant do it, I doubt anyone else can.

Those were all freakshow builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

100 damage? Take 25 as standard strike (no crits etc), +17 ootv, +17 oop, +4 winnowing. = 63. As i was saying to the other guy, spirits often get owned hard, so I think 100 damage a hit is a taking the piss a little bit dont you? They hit for fairly high damage sure, but 100 damage it is not.

Don't ignore crits. I think most of the time its in the 90s but if you wanna get pedantic we can get REAL pedantic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

- I think thats a little narrow... ever seen an ele spike done properly? I know you have, you were there when we got owned by it

. They also work more or less to the hp, and well executed ele spikes are around and killing.

We were in a euro-pug. That doesn't count. The fact theres well done spikes around and killing doesn't add to the convo in the slightest. Theres well executed flareway going round and killing. Doesn't make it good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

One guy said something about using a bot on vent to countdown, reducing lag, and another on XoO said (this was for their flame spike team) that they simply used the ingame clock and got a perfect spike 90% of the time. As for human error beyond that

The bot thing doesn't help a whole lot. You still have to recieve the signal. Its transmitted at the same time and its smaller in size than a speech wave would be...but its not perfect. In game clock is a plan. It also really doesn't help that you're using 2 different skills to spike...2 different skills with different casting times. Do you really expect your Gazers to cast PRECISELY 1 second after the Flames have started casting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

I think its unfair to give the attackers all this lag, and then assume the defenders are getting nothing as well

Whatsmore, prot monks also have the time to move their mouse and click. Sounds trivial, but any human error on one side can be equally applied to the other team. Basically, Im using ele air spike as precedent, until nr/smite it was the build that everyone ran... so im assuming all those prot monks arent all that

Point being theres 2-3 defenders using 1/4 second cast defensive skills that'll screw over your prot. If one of those lags then the other 2 fill in. If any one of your guys lag theres no spike to be had. Also its just untrue if you say that Air eles were scraping the barrel for their damage spikes. Orbs did not ignore armour, they had to positively overload on damage to be sure of getting a kill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

- Again, ill challenge the triple figure idea, see above.

Read the post again. I didn't mention this time that the warriors had no skills at their disposal. They can DEFINATELY hit tripple figures with a good evisc or exe or maybe even penetrating and buffs. They will do it pretty much every skill they touch. That means its per-second if they build up their adren beforehand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Again, Ill flag up many successful ele spikes (and others) that could all fall to interrupt and dont because its not that rife.

You mean ele spikes aren't rife? I'll agree with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Just because we use it doesnt mean everyone else does.

Who's "we"? Last I saw I left. p3r#4pz j00 15 b1773r n0?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Most spikes are scraping the barrel, but perhaps i could bring frenzy up.... that pushes the damage into the bigger numbers, and as i said op taking out attackers would be a primary focus (mainly due to frenzy). Most people say they predict if someone is going to spike them, but if you have say 2/3 warriors they physically cant cancel frenzy evey 10s in case it might be them. Whatsmore this is a non-projectile spike so no chance.

Point, but targeting warriors first only gives the mesmers more time and more chances to shut you down. Your best option is to kill the guys you're weak against first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

You say we will get bombarded by disruption, but in reality that boils down to damage hexes and conditions. Hexes are dealt with harshly, conditions owned sufficiently well, and damage is taken care of, except at the moment of the spike. However, ‘lasting’ protection like wards, aegis, prot spirit, lessen the chance of getting owned in this small period.

Depends on how many hexes doesn't it. I see 2 veils 1 remove and 1 convert before me. No hex breaker and no disruption to limit number of hexes the enemy casts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

- Its harder and that’s fair enough, but in a metagame prevalent of warriors/rangers does that not infer that interrupters have less worth, and therefore there arent that many of them in gvg where every space counts, and therefore putting people in just in case is not an option?

You only need savage shot to render this entire spike poo since you're scraping for damage that much. The point with this is that not only are you cutting the damage thinly, since you're using flame you can't do it right away if it doesn't work the first time. Not so for ranger spikers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

- Not good, merely unexpected and more likely less prepared for.

So are loladins. Nobody will expect t3h loladins. This build has intrinsic flaws...the snares, poor division of labour (1 guy doing 4 jobs? O.o; ), the fact that one of your spike spells has a casting time twice that of the other one, the reliance on the idea that the enemy team has warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

This team isn’t what is meant to make warriors obsolete, not that I even said that in the first place. What I meant was that out of all the damage output sources warriors at the moment look the weakest until proven otherwise (which hasn’t happened yet).

They're not the weakest. They're the most versatile, can work in the smallest groups and if conditions are correct, they can do the most damage in spike or DPS. I reiterate that they can put out 100+ per hit under buffs and skills. Its the job of the other 5-6 people to provide these conditions. Although true, IMO thats thinking about it completely the wrong way.

Reminds me of you crapping your pants over a quite frankly average R/N toucher.

rii · Nov 06, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50

*bangs head on table*

-vim and n0 was run for some time. Don’t know about fnld

-How come when I run it I get what the math says, and when you run it you get about twice as much? You’re a lucky lucky man.

-…wtf has flareway got to do with anything? And how does it not contribute? I’m trying to maintain a level of reality around what is a theorycraft discussion, and so I referenced the fact that people do it and it works a lot. Obsidian flame is used a lot as a primary source of killing things and they never come back saying ‘man that prot monk roffed our spike in 0.1s’. Because it doesn’t happen.

-You still know what build I’m talking about, it’s just an example.

-Please, for the love of god, use your imagination and assume these people have brains. *cast flame at 2:26 and gaze at 2:27* It’s really, really not hard.

-The point isn’t that, if the spike is done properly you won’t actually be able to react, lag or not. Even the slightest bit of lag (I mean smallest possible) moves reacting to the spike from *impossible* to *impossible*.

-You seem to be under the impression these Mesmers can shut down 8 people. That’s a wtfp00n Mesmer you’ve got right there

-Hex Breaker isn’t that hot any more. It’s good, but not great. Originally, and more practically, the build had smite hex in as well, and that’s about a hex every 2 seconds, and that’s without convert.

-Glyph flame - flame can go fine.

-Loladins are shit though. This build is weak, in fact I just posted it as something to do, but it works at the same level of every other caster spike build. Comparing to ranger/warrior spike is of course like comparing golf and Castro. Thing is, you seem to accept that most people don’t prepare for this kind of build, but then every criticism you flag up is either unreasonable or assuming people are living in a caster heavy environment and come ready for it. Contradictory n0?

-This build doesn’t rely on the other team having warriors… don’t know where you got that from.

-I know

-Yeah, he sucked a bit, but the 4v1’s were pretty spectacular at the time.

-Mind posting a build that I can spar against? Atm this is a discussion against thin air, which never goes anywhere, as you well know.

JYX · Nov 06, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

-How come when I run it I get what the math says, and when you run it you get about twice as much? You’re a lucky lucky man.

If you're getting 45 under dual orders and spirits AND axe crit...you've got serious issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

-…wtf has flareway got to do with anything? And how does it not contribute? I’m trying to maintain a level of reality around what is a theorycraft discussion, and so I referenced the fact that people do it and it works a lot. Obsidian flame is used a lot as a primary source of killing things and they never come back saying ‘man that prot monk roffed our spike in 0.1s’. Because it doesn’t happen.

Ok lets get real. Air spike stopped being popular because it got protted out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

-Please, for the love of god, use your imagination and assume these people have brains. *cast flame at 2:26 and gaze at 2:27* It’s really, really not hard.

You want to co-ordinate this...every 10 seconds on average? Get everyone to stop removing hexes, disenchanting, get their energy up to a good level, do some protting, apply a deep wound and then throw on a spike. Every 10 seconds. While deciding exactly which 2 seconds you're gonna spike in. Right. K.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

-The point isn’t that, if the spike is done properly you won’t actually be able to react, lag or not. Even the slightest bit of lag (I mean smallest possible) moves reacting to the spike from *impossible* to *impossible*.

If communism is done properly we'd all be equal. -.-;
Spike in general is convoluted and difficult to turn out. I like ranger spike because it gives you slightly more field for error, you can switch to DPS easily and you don't need many people co-ordinated to pull it off. The same does not apply to what you're doing here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

-You seem to be under the impression these Mesmers can shut down 8 people. That’s a wtfp00n Mesmer you’ve got right there

With the spread of damage and the thin way you're cutting it...shut down 2 and they're free of death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

-Hex Breaker isn’t that hot any more. It’s good, but not great. Originally, and more practically, the build had smite hex in as well, and that’s about a hex every 2 seconds, and that’s without convert.

I'd lose convert for smite in this instance. Its just hard to negotiate the energy and casting time in between spikes. You can throw smite on whenever you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

-Loladins are shit though. This build is weak, in fact I just posted it as something to do, but it works at the same level of every other caster spike build. Comparing to ranger/warrior spike is of course like comparing golf and Castro.

Thats kinda sad. You should do my eng lit for me.
...but as long as you know this build is no good thats fine...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Thing is, you seem to accept that most people don’t prepare for this kind of build, but then every criticism you flag up is either unreasonable or assuming people are living in a caster heavy environment and come ready for it. Contradictory n0?

No I don't accept that people don't prepare for this build. I think this build is incredibly easy to shut down with a couple of decent interrupts. People have interrupts, people also use interrupting rangers. Also although we aren't in a caster heavy enviroment the casters are key. Take out the prepper on a ranger team and you take the spike out, same with orders/wells in IWAY. People who don't prepare for casters are asking for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

-This build doesn’t rely on the other team having warriors… don’t know where you got that from.

From where you said you're mainly going to be going for people with frenzy on to be sure of getting a kill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

-Mind posting a build that I can spar against? Atm this is a discussion against thin air, which never goes anywhere, as you well know.

K then...simple build, 12/12 stat distribution with 2 skills:

16 proness
12 ub4r

I
AM [elite]

rii · Nov 06, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Yeah, the eliteness is so condensed you can disprove the all monk team as the ultimate killing machine

I going to sleep now, so lets put the debate at rest that, yeah, its a spike team with monks. woot. Overall result on spike is that at the highest level (i.e. what theorycrafers can live with) is that its no good unless smothered in between dps, since its protted hard. (point accepted on eles).
It requires micro/multi-tasking... not pr0 enough?

JYX · Nov 06, 2005, 11:15 PM // 23:15

As generalisations go: I like it.