Curse

arredondo · Aug 31, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

As much as I like Necro ownage, I have to make a small correction to the post above. The total cast time will be 2.75+2.75+.75+1.0= 7.25 seconds. You always have to include after cast when making calculations.

I don't think there's an aftercast with skills like Vampiric Touch (need to check), and you don't factor in the final after cast because the damage is inflicted the moment the spell is finished casting. That makes the rate of damage come down to 43 DPS, or 39 DPS if VT has an aftercast.

Carinae · Aug 31, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49

VT is a skill, so it shouldn't have an aftercast. And you added an extra second to VG. It has a 1 sec cast, so 1.75 including aftercast. (assuming .75 aftercast??)

Which is 49.9dps (not including the life steal) and 82.9 including.

Good call.

IndyCC · Aug 31, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Thanks for all the information and numbers. I knew I wasn't totally crazy for looking at a build like this. Not 100 dps but sexy nontheless. Never hurts to be more creative than FotM. So here is what I will test tonight. As I am trying to stay away from touch attacks until I prove if I will get swarmed by the enemy or not I dropped Vampiric Touch for Life Siphon. If I end up getting totally mobbed, I will throw it back in. Additionally if that is the case smite will be replaced with holy strike.

Banish
Bane Signet
Smite/Holy Strike
Res Sig
Shadow Strike
Vampiric Gaze
Life Siphon/Vampiric Touch
Dark Pact

White Designs · Aug 31, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndyCC

Never hurts to be more creative than FotM. So here is what I will test tonight.

Yes it does, it hurts alot in this case. After the recent update the FotM towards Necros in Tombs is mostly to not have them, or for wells, and you have neither.
Life steal sucks, and your smiting skills have no coordination whatsoever with the rest. Its as if you said, 'hey, smiting is cool, life steal is cool, let's combine it for no reason.'

Glasswalker · Aug 31, 2005, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

After the recent update the FotM towards Necros in Tombs is mostly to not have them, or for wells, and you have neither.
Life steal sucks

::Sigh.:: Whitey, we seem to end up on opposite sides of every argument. I've made a pretty good living thus far as a Blood Necro, and my monks have often thanked me for the fact that they never had to worry about me because of my life stealing. Care to back up your blanket statements with actual facts? We got some numbers up above to show that they are in fact effective, and experience has convinced me of this as well. Refute them with something real, and maybe you can contribute.

OP: My one big drawback was Energy Management, so I fell back on bow attacks when I ran low. Your smite skills are going to hurt just as much as your Blood Magic (I almost just put BM there, but that left a nasty double meaning...), so I don't know what you are going to do about it. The signet will still work of course, but with its recharge you will still be sitting around, ineffective.

The only reason I can think of for the Monk secondary on a Necro is for the awesome combination of Draw Conditions and Plague Signet{E}. If you have a M/N on your team running Virulence/Epidemic/Fragility, you've got some major condition damage working! But I digress -- that isn't your build at all.

My recommendation, in short, is to consider a different secondary. A Warrior, Ranger, or Mesmer will either give you options to keep your energy up, or something to do with your downtime. Good luck!

neoflame · Aug 31, 2005, 11:14 PM // 23:14

How the hell can you count self-healing as DPS? Even if you're counting health advantage (not DAMAGE per second), that makes 2 assumptions that are both totally insane: firstly, that you gain the full effect of the life steal on every skill; and secondly, that your target recieves no healing.

Oh, and 40 energy is a lot.

Carinae · Sep 01, 2005, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Its the same. It's negative dps for you. By the same amount you took. It counts.

1) Why wouldn't my life steal get the full effect? It ignores armor.

2) No I dont. I never said anything about healing. No assumption made. Those spells I wrote will do that much 'health advatage' regardless of healing. He might not die, but the spells work that way.

White Designs · Sep 01, 2005, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

::Sigh.:: Whitey, we seem to end up on opposite sides of every argument. I've made a pretty good living thus far as a Blood Necro, and my monks have often thanked me for the fact that they never had to worry about me because of my life stealing. Care to back up your blanket statements with actual facts? We got some numbers up above to show that they are in fact effective, and experience has convinced me of this as well. Refute them with something real, and maybe you can contribute.

First of all, I don't feel I have to explain every last bit in detail all the time. If I say something sucks, then I'm contributing to an argument by giving my opinion on it; its not a flame, and it can be considered or not by the OP.

Here is the explanation though since it was requested. I know since I've been tombing a lot the last few days, and have seen quite a few builds. Most of the decent teams either have no Necro (in my opinion rightfully so, as Me/N does most of it better) or a Necro specializing in corpse skills, ie Well of the Profane (which is acceptable too, since its a somewhere where Soul Reaping is helpful.)

Life stealing sucks since often the health gained will be wasted, leaving you with bad DPS. Life Transfer/Siphon are awful skills that are easily removed and even when in place have the healing part wasted. Life Steal sucks for the same reason why tanks suck: it makes a character do damage and heal and the same time and do both poorly (neither of which a Necro should be doing anyways, in my opinion).

neoflame · Sep 01, 2005, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Its the same. It's negative dps for you. By the same amount you took. It counts.

DPS stands for damage per second. Explain how you can possibly count healing yourself as an addition your own damage. That's what I mean (in response to 2.)

Quote:

1) Why wouldn't my life steal get the full effect? It ignores armor.

You're at full health. You use Vamp Gaze on some sucker. You gain 0 life. Your HPS for that spell = 0.

Carinae · Sep 01, 2005, 01:17 PM // 13:17

What don't you get about it? If me and an opponent start at 50% health. 200 health, lets say. And I VG him for 68 life steal. He now has 132 health and I have 268. It's EXACTLY the same situation as if we both had 268 to begin with, and hit him for 136 points of pure damage. You'd count it as damage if an Ele did it in that situation, but not a necro's life steal? Hmmmm.

VG does 136 points of health advantage for 10 mana. Pretty good. SS does 165 points, also for 10 mana. Hmmmm, yea, these spells clearly suck.

And yea, if I'm at full health, I don't gain the life steal. Wow. I never though of that. Clearly I'm gonna have to learn the ins and outs of my own spells. Man, I bet a Monk spell wouldn't heal me if I was full either. Monks suck!!!

Spura · Sep 01, 2005, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

What don't you get about it? If me and an opponent start at 50% health. 200 health, lets say. And I VG him for 68 life steal. He now has 132 health and I have 268. It's EXACTLY the same situation as if we both had 268 to begin with, and hit him for 136 points of pure damage. You'd count it as damage if an Ele did it in that situation, but not a necro's life steal? Hmmmm.

VG does 136 points of health advantage for 10 mana. Pretty good. SS does 165 points, also for 10 mana. Hmmmm, yea, these spells clearly suck.

And yea, if I'm at full health, I don't gain the life steal. Wow. I never though of that. Clearly I'm gonna have to learn the ins and outs of my own spells. Man, I bet a Monk spell wouldn't heal me if I was full either. Monks suck!!!

You assume you both start at 50%. If you have 100% and you attack some monk your steals benefit you nothing while the damagers on the enemy team kill your monk. Also shadow strike sucks once you they go under 50%. Overall your damage is quite small compared to what an air ele can do, your energy cost is much higher(because ele has attunements) and your HP gain from steals in inconsequential. In short, you fail at killing stuff in tombs or gvg. If blood was good damage, good guilds would use it, yet they don't, for the reasons I listed.

Glasswalker · Sep 01, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Necros make a soft target, and I make a big nuisance of myself, so while it's true that when your health is at 100% the life steal benifits you little, I spend most of the match <80%. And assuming you had some sacrifice spells, you can guarentee room to improve your health.

Carinae: Your comment about the monk spell was pretty silly, since no monk is going to heal you when you are at full health, but you are still likely to cast vampiric gaze at full health. That's the difference -- and it's one that people who read (and benifit from) these discussions should take into account. Now, hello to those people, go back and read my first paragraph.

Counting the added health in the mathematics isn't insane because to win, the enemy has to kill you. When you add health to your bar, you make the enemy have to hit you again to take that away. Now, I don't usually go for self-heals because you could be doing something more important, but in the case of necros, you are still ganking the other team. You didn't take time out. If you are a good necro, you are hitting the called target... I just don't see the downside. Perhaps someone can help me?

And last but not least, I will agree that Life Transfer sucks, mainly because it holds a valuable Elite position in the bar. But Life Siphon is a great skill despite the fact that it's easily removed, and despite the fact that 3pts of degen/regen rarely if ever won a match. The reason it is great is because it's fairly cheap, and has a good recharge, and it covers other spells nicely. Like say, for instance, Fragility. About the time the enemy is ctrl+clicking on Fragility, you've cast LS on him. That one gets removed instead, and when the monk follows up with Martyr, you've got a dead target. There are other cover spells that cost and recharge nicely, but this one is very obvious when it's removed because of the benifit to you. Cast it again.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The true strength of the necro is that he's the ultimate team player. There is no team build that wouldn't benifit from a strategic necro addition. [/Blanket_Statement]

[EDIT]Sorry, I forgot one. I'll shut up after this. Air/Whatever Elemental attacks have their counters. A ward, or the proper armor, and most of that damage is mitigated. This is not true for Necro damage. In many combat tested scenarios, a Blood Necro will far out-damage his Elementalist counterpart. To some degree you play what you want. But if the 'best guilds' aren't playing a Necro anywhere, I think they should be.[/EDIT]

Carinae · Sep 01, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

Carinae: Your comment about the monk spell was pretty silly, since no monk is going to heal you when you are at full health, but you are still likely to cast vampiric gaze at full health.

I agree with your entire comment.

About my comments... I was venting, sorry. I fully understand that VG isn't going to heal you if you are at 100% health. I thought it was obvious, not a revelation, so I proposed a silly counter-example.

In my earlier post, describing a necro attack build, I use Vampiric Gaze, Shadow Strike and Dark Pact. Dark Pact has a 10% sacrifice, which gets replentished when you use VG on the second round. So only the VERY FIRST use of VG wastes the life steal. Maybe I should lead off with DP to avoid even that waste.

I am also aware that Shadow Strike isn't a good spell when the opponent falls below 50% health. I can read the spell description. VG/VT/DP still work to the full effect in when this happens.

Being a necro means you have to THINK. It's not a button mashing character. Warriors and Elementalists fill that roll. "Do I want to cast DP now? I'm taking a lot of damage." or "Good, he's below 50% drop SS from the rotation"

Enigmatics · Sep 01, 2005, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Even a nerfed, battered, and shamed Renewal Smiter is holding his own better than a N/Mo that smites. If you're adding a few skills in your bar to life stealing, they may postpone your death for a few seconds; but if your monk isn't concentrating on healing you, you might as well resign yourself to dying. If you have more smiting on your bar, you'll realize soon enough that brute force in terms of energy as well as Ether Renewal overshadow a N/Mo with smiting skills and skills like Vampiric Gaze. When someone comes up with a build that doesn't depend on blood magic, but utilizes the necromancer primary (which is difficult in itself), then they'll have a viable build.

neoflame · Sep 01, 2005, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

What don't you get about it? If me and an opponent start at 50% health. 200 health, lets say. And I VG him for 68 life steal. He now has 132 health and I have 268. It's EXACTLY the same situation as if we both had 268 to begin with, and hit him for 136 points of pure damage. You'd count it as damage if an Ele did it in that situation, but not a necro's life steal? Hmmmm.

Under this logic, Healing Signet is one of the best damage skills in the whole game; if both an opponent and I have 200 health, and I HS for 135 points, that's exactly the same as if we both started at 335 and I hit him for 135 damage! And it's free and has a 6-second recycle! WTFPWNED

Seriously, this isn't a 1v1 game, get over the fact that you can't count healing yourself as damage.

Quote:

And yea, if I'm at full health, I don't gain the life steal. Wow. I never though of that. Clearly I'm gonna have to learn the ins and outs of my own spells. Man, I bet a Monk spell wouldn't heal me if I was full either. Monks suck!!!

Have fun healing people at full health.

Enigmatics · Sep 01, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

That's a pretty bad comparison, putting sarcasm aside. Monk heals are numerous and cheaper than Necro blood magic.

Carinae · Sep 01, 2005, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Fine. Don't call it 'damage'. Call it 'Health Exchanged' It needs to be included in the math though, because you have to get me to zero to win, and I can use YOUR health against you.

If you use HS, you have to stop damaging me. Your dps goes down down down.

I can use VG to damage you and heal myself at the same time. Hell, in the time it takes you to use HS, I can take over 135 life from you. You effectively used HS to heal ME. Thanks. Please, use it again in 6 seconds.

Carinae · Sep 01, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoflame

Seriously, this isn't a 1v1 game....

I can't wait for 1v1 arenas! Necro's will shine in 1v1.

IndyCC · Sep 01, 2005, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I appreciate all the help and the discussion over my crazy light/dark build. I have actually been using this build in PVP arenas and having a lot of luck. Warrior get pissed because they beat and beat on me and I kill them only ever going down to half life. Recharge is a minor problem but I can run through my skill bar twice before having a problem hit once with my staff then begin to run through it again. So all in all I do not consider it a major problem. Energy has not been a big problem either, only time it is a problem is when there is a monk I am attacking and my group isn't focusing on killing the same target. Then all my damage gets healed, no one dies so soul reaping doesn't kick in, and now I am out of energy with a live monk enemy and a team full of dolts who soon die.

All in all I am quite pleased with this tactic. Throw some dark, throw some light and enemy player dies. I get a lot more kills than with my ranger, a lot more consequitive wins too, but a lot more personal deaths when I get spiked on (most of my deaths are from backfire which is my own fault as I am still getting used to being a pvp caster or from elem lightning attacks).

My plan is to switch over to adding the two touch attacks. Not only do I think I will do more dmg this way because there are always baddies near me, but I also think it provides some better combos for my skills such as bane signet and holy strike.

I do agree that Life Siphon isn't doing me much good other than just being another condition they have to contend with. Most of the time I have noticed it does not get removed so that is something that counters a lot of debate about it being removed. Most see the three pips and shrug it off. For the moment I have not unlocked anything better to take its spot. I may just hang onto Smite and dump Life Siphon until I unlock something better.

I think I am done with the debate for now. If you think this is silly then there is no changing that. But if you found this made you curious then I think you should try it, you will be pleasently surprised. Just a pure armor ignoring build, I am pleased with it till I come up with something better.

entropy · Sep 01, 2005, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Well I have used a N/Mo and it works decently. I chose to play a sacrafice necro and it worked great except for the energy management. Basically it was to be mainly used against wars and im talking in comp arena where there is many of them.
dark aura
dark pact
touch of agony
Those are your main skills. Cast dark aura touch of agony and then dark pact over and over and go down to somewhere of 150 some health.
Grenth's balance {E}
Use grenths balance on someone else with around decent health and then continue
The only major problem i see with this build is the lack of energy.
Orison of healing
Heal Area
Res sig
With dark pact and dark aura taking away around 10% of your health each timeyouwill need some major healing.
I believe you need healing/blood/curses or death(forgot which one dark aura is in)
I guess yuo could also go N/Me and then go with energy stealing and ether feast to healing along with a few blood spells. Take 2 superior runes so that the 10% of yuor health isn't that big of a deal