Curse

Ender Ward · Aug 15, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Lol. I tested it when the game came out and I tested it an hour ago. They still do not stack. If the damage bonus doesn't stack(as it doesn't) you can almost be asured that the flight time doesnt either.

Unless there's been a change in the last 3 weeks, they stack.

As for the flight time, you'd have to be blind to not see that they stack. Take a Flatbow, try RtW or FW alone, try them together.

Quote:

The great thing about Irresistible Blow is that the normal counters, Wards, Aegis, Guardian, etc. don't work.

Oh sure, 1 attack every 2-4 seconds is a great use of a character slot on a team of 8 (/sarcasm).

Quote:

Edit: In all seriousness I think there is a place for a damage dealing ranger, thru Melandrus or Quikshot. But what you have described and the incorrect/intentenal biased numbers you use to show it are an absolute farce.

*laugh*. So +-6 damage makes it a farce now huh? Grasping at straws ...

Even appeasing your (incorrect) claim that RtW and Favourable Winds do not stack, and so reducing the stated damage by 6, without Judge's Insight, you stil get:

QS Ranger: 32-51 damage every 0.8 seconds.
VS
Hammer R/W: 38-59 damage every 1.17 seconds.

Now let's consider something else. We're looking for sustainable DPS, right? So we won't be using Judge's Insight. And if not using JI, then there's no reason to use Read The Wind.
In which case we're going to use Kindle Arrows, Favourable Winds and Tiger's Fury.
Lack of RtW means we no longer have to keep Marksmanship at 14. So we can get away with:

Ranger/X

13 Expertise (10 + 3)
09 Beast Mastery (8 + 1)
12 Marksmanship (8 + 4)
11 Wilderness Survival (10 + 1)

Which results in:

26-44 damage (base + FW) + 19 from Kindle Arrows.

Total damage potential in this case, on a 60 AL target, would be 45-63 every 0.8 seconds. Sustainable pretty much forever.

And again, far less easily countered than a Hammer R/W.

Neo-LD · Aug 15, 2005, 11:47 AM // 11:47

And far more adaptable and dealing far better damage. Its funny to watch the argument from the other thread creep into this one.

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Hehe, I like how you try to squeeze out of RtW. It has never stacked. You are full of it.

Edit: This is a bit nitpicky, but going 10/8/8/10 makes no sense. 9/8/9/10 and 10/8/9/9 give you two free attribute points.

Ender Ward · Aug 15, 2005, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Hehe, I like how you try to squeeze out of RtW. It has never stacked. You are full of it.

*deep sigh*

You wanted sustainable DPS? I gave you a build that does it far better than your hammer R/W. The only reason I use Read The Winds is because it benefits from Judge's Insight. If I don't use JI, I don't need RtW, and will use Kindle instead. This can't be too difficult a concept to comprehend ...

It has nothing to do with your claim that RtW and FW don't stack.

As for me being full of it, look who's talking. Don't like the inconvinient argument presented, so we're gonna attack the person making it, that how it works? Too bad it ain't working. 'Cause the numbers speak for themselves.

Quote:

Edit: This is a bit nitpicky, but going 10/8/8/10 makes no sense. 9/8/9/10 and 10/8/9/9 give you two free attribute points.

*rolls eyes*

Which you can't use anywhere, so who gives a damn?

Nitpicking a build for 2 unused attribute points. Man you're really reaching now ...

Finally, my point is made. QS R/X with 12 Marksmaship, Kindle Arrows and Favourable Winds does far better for sustained DPS than a hammer using R/W. I'm done now.

Neo-LD · Aug 15, 2005, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

This can't be too difficult a concept to comprehend ...

I know. Often seems like what is said goes in one ear and out the other.

btw for my build I reduce BM to give only 8 sec TF so I can get 14 expertise. Thats cus in my guild the QS ranger(s) are usually responsible for debilitating shot on enemy monks too. Might as well take an extra energy for every TF and Debil.

I have always been hesitant to use 2 sup runes... I realize that with fertile down it doesnt hurt that much, so 2 sups in tombs is fine especially becuase it is unlikely that they will target /persecute you cus there are 8 targets and your a ranger. But in arenas Im a little hesitant... I think Im gonna try it BUT since I have an empty skill slot I think I want to use it for something defensive... not Unguent of course but maybe Dirt or somethin...

Currently its

Debil, Distract, QS, TF, Fav Winds, Kindle, Res Sig...got space for one more...besides Dirt or Whirling D I cant think of anything I particularly would want, ideas?

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 04:35 PM // 16:35

RtW and Favorable don't stack. Judge's Insight makes no sense on any Ranger build. Understanding how to maximize attribute points is a large point of the game. Sorry for trying to enlighten you.

Keep on using your JI/RTW/FW Build.

Syno Nym · Aug 15, 2005, 05:31 PM // 17:31

First of all, thanks for this thread, it was VERY interessant.

I just wanted to give you my impressions on the builds you posted here.

I tested the JI/RtW/QS/FW build, and all I can say is... It sucks. :s (no flame intended...)

All you do is casting JI/RtW again and again. And Protective spirit owns you. (not talking of Nature's Renewal...)

Then I tested a simple QS/Kindle/FW build with a friend in team arena (we ran two of these rangers and two monks), and it's far better.

1st : Protective spirit isn't a problem.
2nd : Kindle lasts 24 seconds !! You lose 2s every 24s, contrary to RtW/JI which makes you lose 4s every...12s :s
3rd : it allows you to bring Troll onguent and maybe a trap (for Arenas at least) since you have a fairly high lvl in WS.

Definitly an excellent build, I think we'll give it a try in GvG. Thanks again.

Ender Ward · Aug 15, 2005, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syno Nym

All you do is casting JI/RtW again and again. And Protective spirit owns you. (not talking of Nature's Renewal...)

The buils is meant to spike a target. It's meant to be used with coordinated fire from multiple rangers, who kill said target within a few seconds (2-4 arrows). It also shines with Orders.

You need ways to remove Protective Spirit, as with any other spike damage, or your damage potential is wasted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syno Nym

Then I tested a simple QS/Kindle/FW build with a friend in team arena (we ran two of these rangers and two monks), and it's far better.

If you want sustained, energy efficient DPS, this is the build, yes. But it doesn't do very well at spike damage. This is the build to use if you cannot reliably remove Protective Spirit. Also, this build kinda gets owned by Shielding Hands (unlike the JI build).

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Judge's Insight makes no sense on any Ranger build.

The JI build is proven. I'm sorry that usage of JI insight on a Ranger is abit too complex for ya. That's alright, we all have our failings ...

Quote:

Understanding how to maximize attribute points is a large point of the game. Sorry for trying to enlighten you.

*smiles*

Yes, having 4 left over attribute points vs 2 left over attribute points, that cannot be spent anywhere, is a travesty!

Quote:

Keep on using your JI/RTW/FW Build.

Keep trolling.

Oh and since you've begun grasping at straws a few posts ago, I'll assume you've conceded the rest of the points.

/done.

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Some people just can't admit they are wrong... its so pathetic.

RtW does not stack with Favorable Winds. Even if it did stack, this damage is not affected by Judge's Insight. It's a completely useless build.

loc87 · Aug 15, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Instead of just saying "yes it works" or "no it doesn't," wouldn't it be easier to settle this by taking photos of arcs of arrows fired with a flatbow while under the effects of rtw, fw, and both?

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by loc87

Instead of just saying "yes it works" or "no it doesn't," wouldn't it be easier to settle this by taking photos of arcs of arrows fired with a flatbow while under the effects of rtw, fw, and both?

I'm not talking about the arc. Flight time is already a non issue with Favorable Winds Up. The damage is what does not stack.

ICURADik · Aug 15, 2005, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

The JI build is proven. I'm sorry that usage of JI insight on a Ranger is abit too complex for ya. That's alright, we all have our failings ...

Proved against Noobs in Random Arena?

mikey · Aug 16, 2005, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

A QS with QZ will be attacking every 2/3 a second. You do the math.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Rofl, further proof you have no clue what you're talking about. 50 per arrow = 80~ per second. GREAT job with the mathemathics.

Ok, lets examine YOUR maths shall we? 1 shot every 2/3 second you say?

A normal quick shot has a refire rate of 1 second (with a short and flatbow). So normal fire rate is 1 shot per second agreed?

Now your 1 shot every 2/3 equates to 1.5 shots per second under TF. So a 33% increase of attack speed actually got you a 50% increase in speed? Before criticising other people's maths, make sure yours is right.

For the benefit of everyone else here, I'll post how to obtain the real attack speeds. A shortbow fires once per 2 seconds. With a 33% increase of speed, that means you fire 1.33 shots per 2 seconds, not 1 shot per 1.33 seconds. So 1.33 per 2 = 1 shot per 1.5 seconds. Under QuickShot, your shortbow fires 1 shot per second, which is 1.33 per second under TF. That becomes 1 shot per 0.75 seconds under QZ and TF.

Shortbow + TF = 1 shot per 1.5 seconds
Shortbow + TF + QZ = 1 shot per 0.75 seconds

I can confirm that multiplying the refire rate by 2/3 is completely inaccurate by the example at the top. 1.5 shots per second vs 1 shot per second is NOT an increase of 33%.

So when calculating increase of speed, you find out the weapon's "1 shot per x seconds", under a +33% attack speed this becomes "1.33 shots per x seconds".

I hope this helps for better calculation of DPS

.

EDIT:

ICURADik why do you believe that RTW and FW do not stack? They are completely different skills and as far as the game mechanics go, different skills do stack, same ones do not. Unless it is a flaw in the game design like Bloodstained Boots which have no effect on any skills in the game (info from Charles Ensign in Q&A forum).

Mind Wallaby · Aug 16, 2005, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikey

Now your 1 shot every 2/3 equates to 1.5 shots per second under TF. So a 33% increase of attack speed actually got you a 50% increase in speed? Before criticising other people's maths, make sure yours is right.

Actually traversc is correct because the Tiger's Fury description (and presumably Frenzy and Flurry) is wrong. The skill increases your speed by 50%, not 33%. I consistently time TF + shorbow at 1.333s (+- 0.033s) between shots, not 1.5s as you would expect if the skill description were correct.

mikey · Aug 16, 2005, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Well my maths is right and that is all that matters

. Are you 100% sure its 50% and the description is wrong? There can only be one person to settle this dispute, Charles Ensign

.

That's a pretty big oversight by ANet to have the labelled speed increase totally wrong.

While others may be correct in saying 1 shot per 1.33, it was based on false calculations and they were only correct through pure luck...

edit: Also don't forget human reaction time is on average ~250ms, which could easily be changing the results (I'm assuming you used a stopwatch?).

Mind Wallaby · Aug 16, 2005, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Yeah, your math was on the spot. I timed TF + shortbow by recording a video with Fraps and stepping through frame by frame. I recorded at 30 FPS, hence the +- 0.033s bit.

By the way, if you're the same mikey who posts in the guild-hall.net forums, your Quick Shot thread inspired me to try the skill in the first place. So thanks

ICURADik · Aug 16, 2005, 05:44 AM // 05:44

I guess I'm still the only one that has actually tested RtW, and no, it doesn't stack. The nature of the buffs are very similar so it is conceivable how they get treated as the same buff by the game and therefore do not stack.

I think alot of those 1.33 numbesr were concluded thru testing. Not luck.