Curse

AtomicMew · Aug 10, 2005, 03:41 AM // 03:41

What is so good about Melandru's Arrows? It seem really too conditional to be used in general.

UberRusty · Aug 10, 2005, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

What is so good about Melandru's Arrows? It seem really too conditional to be used in general.

It causes bleeding, and lots of extra damage IF the player is under an enchantment. Works best in none NR teams.

Ender Ward · Aug 10, 2005, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Melandru's Arrows is gimped in the current (Nature's Renewal) metagame.

Not enough people use enchantments to justify it. And without enchants, it adds a very underwhelming 6 damage per second (bleeding) to your character's effectiveness. It would be more effective to use plain old Apply Poison (8 damage per second).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Leave marks at 9.

Are you serious?

Aug 10, 2005, 04:46 AM // 04:46

MA is actually good in the current metagame because monks will still use spam enchants to scrape by, and being that they cant put enough damage mitigation on Ma is going to break them.

You leave marks at 9 if your using a 9 requirement bow and very little amount of marksmanship linked skills so you have more room. It's not like you'll gain a lot for pumping it higher anyway.

UberRusty · Aug 10, 2005, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Melandru's Arrows is gimped in the current (Nature's Renewal) metagame.

Ho-hum,
thanks for repeating what I said mum.

Quote:

Not enough people use enchantments to justify it. And without enchants, it adds a very underwhelming 6 damage per second (bleeding) to your character's effectiveness. It would be more effective to use plain old Apply Poison (8 damage per second).

Don't know what games you've been playing but enchants are always used. Maybe not the -1 enchants but Healing Breeze, Protective Spirit, etc etc etc.

Neo-LD · Aug 10, 2005, 11:20 AM // 11:20

At least in arena, there is usually at least 1 enemy who is enchanted. Almost guareteed. Elementalists with attunement. IWs. Prot monks. Boon Monks. Noob wars. Life Bond/Blessed Sig Monks. JI rangers lol. It doesnt matter if they dont all have one, if one of them does, thats who you want. JI makes it so even if the war is the only guy enchanted, hes the guy you can do the most damage to. And its some pretty sick damage. (I tried it tonight) You liely will have to attack a different target than your other allies. Thats fine, as long as you have 2 attacking 1 and you riping up a different guy, your still effective.

Main weakness I saw was it ran out of energy and had to recast JI alot. Definately want to have that coming externally.

Esrever · Aug 10, 2005, 03:26 PM // 15:26

What about a R/N that uses Weaken Armor with Melandru's Arrows? Since -20 armor is more armor penetration than 20% percent in most cases, it should do more damage than an R/Mo using Judge's Insight. It probably couldn't be used well in Tombs or GvG, but since I have not seen Nature's Renewal in Arena yet, it could be quite effective there.

Neo-LD · Aug 10, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

probably you will get more damage, but then you cant switch targets if he gets protected by something (shielding hands, guardian, etc) Im not sure but I dont think you can maintain Weaken Armor all the time due to recharge. Anyways, both JI and Weaken Armor would be better if casted externally.

Ender Ward · Aug 10, 2005, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

MA is actually good in the current metagame because monks will still use spam enchants to scrape by, and being that they cant put enough damage mitigation on Ma is going to break them.

Perhaps I'm just unlucky in constantly meeting NR spammers (they just don't let enchants stay up for longer than 20 bloody seconds

) ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

You leave marks at 9 if your using a 9 requirement bow and very little amount of marksmanship linked skills so you have more room. It's not like you'll gain a lot for pumping it higher anyway.

Well you're losing 23% damage on every hit just by keeping it below 12 Marksmanship. Or 30% by not getting Marksmanship to 14, for example (I try to keep it there on my builds).
Where are the 'saved' attribute points going, that they help overcome that damage loss?

Are you maxing out Wilderness Survival instead? That doesn't seem like it would be worth it. The difference between Melandru's Arrows at 12 WS and 16 WS is a mere 5 damage and 7 seconds longer bleed time. Additionally, that would make the character's ability to do damage even that much more reliant on an enchantement.

When ever I play the Melandru's Arrows build I have my attributes like this:

14 Marksmanship
12 Wilderness Survival
09 Expertise
09 Beast Mastery
05 Smiting Prayers

I prefer this so I can stil do good damage to non-enchanted targets, and I'm not giving up much at all from not pumping WS to 16, IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberRusty

Don't know what games you've been playing but enchants are always used. Maybe not the -1 enchants but Healing Breeze, Protective Spirit, etc etc etc.

Not seing too much Healing Breeze under Nature's Renewal myself. Seing more direct healing (Word, Orison, Touch, Heal Other, etc) and protection stuff.
I am stil seing Healing Seed, even with that 4 second cast time under NR, simply because it's so good. But the thing about seed is that it negates any damage increase you get from Melandru's Arrows, while healing everyone around the target if you keep on hitting it.

Speaking of Protection in general ... you mentioned Protective Spirit. Don't you realise that firing at a target under PS your damage will be capped around 48 (assuming around 480 health)? The extra damage from Melandru's Arrows is irrelevant, in this case. It might as well not even be there. So I'm not really sure why you brought up Protective Spirit.

Another favourite under Nature's Renewal is Reversal of Fortune. Sure, as an enchantment, it will trigger MA as well, but for one arrow only (which ofcourse can stil be benefitial if the target is spamming RoF). However, unless your character is exceeding 67-84 damage with every arrow (happens, though not too often with the latter value in my experience), you'll end up healing the target instead of damaging it. At best, assuming your MA hits for 100 (critical), you're stil doing little damage to a RoF spammer.

This is why I'm not a fan of the Melandru's Build in the current environment. Before NR became a fact of life, I used to run it often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

At least in arena, there is usually at least 1 enemy who is enchanted.

Right, but come on, it's the random Arena ...
You meet NR there perhaps one in ten games. And people stil bring/use all kinds of builds not designed to function under it. So ofcourse they bring Elementalists with stacked attunements, stil use Life Bonds and enchantment heals like Breeze or Vigorous Spirit. And all those Mending/Breeze using W/Mo n00bs running around. Etc.

It's not exactly the proving grounds for GvG, Tombs or even team arena builds.

So sure, if you're just sticking to ramdom arenas, a Melandru's Arrows ranger is stil a very powerful build. You'll probably do well in team arenas as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Main weakness I saw was it ran out of energy and had to recast JI alot. Definately want to have that coming externally.

I don't have a problem usually. Casting MA, then JI, then TF and just firing for as long as MA lasts, using normal arrows (with the occasional Dual Shot) with a Zealous Bow, the build is actually very energy efficient, I find.

Neo-LD · Aug 10, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

I was actually talking about team arenas. I TA'ed with myt guildmates last night, using both the QS and MA rangers. All the other characters were the same, and they worked about the same. MA did slightly more damage but usually had to fire at a different target than the rest of the team. Trade total damage for Flexibility? Tough call. I had a smiter cast JI on me with both builds btw.

11+3 Marksmanship
10+2 Wilderness
8+1 Expertise
6+1 Beast

Is how I line up a MA build. Only 1 sup rune needed/wanted. Comparing my numbers to Ender's, 75 Hp is alot to give up for 1 extra second of TF and the ability to waste energy on a mediocre self-casted JI.

Aug 10, 2005, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Perhaps I'm just unlucky in constantly meeting NR spammers (they just don't let enchants stay up for longer than 20 bloody seconds

) ...

It's not really the long term enchantments, it's hitting things that are spam enchantments that you punish since under NR they cant get enough of them on to really mitigate damage. Your hitting Channeling monks, boon monks, mesmers with enchantments on, Warriors with smiting enchants on also.

Quote:

Well you're losing 23% damage on every hit just by keeping it below 12 Marksmanship. Or 30% by not getting Marksmanship to 14, for example (I try to keep it there on my builds).
Where are the 'saved' attribute points going, that they help overcome that damage loss?

If your using a 9 requirement Marks bow, investing past 9 isn;t worth it since you wont be hitting for much more damage. You invest past 9 if you're focusing on attack skills, and since your not that explains leaving it at a raw 9.

Quote:

Are you maxing out Wilderness Survival instead? That doesn't seem like it would be worth it. The difference between Melandru's Arrows at 12 WS and 16 WS is a mere 5 damage and 7 seconds longer bleed time. Additionally, that would make the character's ability to do damage even that much more reliant on an enchantement.

The tweaked version doesn't have a maxed WS, I think it was 14 expertise/13 WS but I'd have to check again. The damage is x2 for dual shot, so it's not really as small a damage boost as you think especially under TF. It's not like NR means absolutely no enchantments, it just means you cant run a lot of them and spam enchants or medium duration enchants are what you'll take chances with.

Also, MA damage ignores Prot Spirit sometimes due to it hitting under the 48hp mark at odd times, and the fact that the damage can come in small but rapid amounts. To beat MA damage and most Ranger damage you want Shielding Hands.

Ender Ward · Aug 12, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

It's not really the long term enchantments, it's hitting things that are spam enchantments that you punish since under NR they cant get enough of them on to really mitigate damage. Your hitting Channeling monks, boon monks, mesmers with enchantments on, Warriors with smiting enchants on also.

The problem I usually find with this is that whenever I give this build yet another try, Protective Spirit just gets slapped on my target and Melandru's is doing nothing for me (aside from the pitiful DPS increase via bleeding). I find myself wishing I brought Quickshot instead, at that point.

We can rend/linger/nature's renewal the Protective Spirit away, but it's back on seconds later, while our ability to strip it, is not. So this is why I usually prefer the less powerful per arrow (against targets under an enchant) QS builds but with much higher rate of fire. Since I can stil hurt the target quite well, even when my arrows are capped at 48 damage.

Quote:

If your using a 9 requirement Marks bow, investing past 9 isn;t worth it since you wont be hitting for much more damage. You invest past 9 if you're focusing on attack skills, and since your not that explains leaving it at a raw 9.

I just cannot agree with this, as I don't see where the saved points are going, that would result in greater damage dealt. Ofcourse it's worth it to invest 14 into Marksmanship as compared to 9. Your base damage (before buffs) is 30% stronger at 14 than at 9 Marksmanship.
Assuming a 'perfect 35% bow' that any PvP character has access to, the difference between 9 and 14 Marksmanship is the difference between doing 29 and 40 damage per shot.

So you are giving up 11 damage per every hit you make throughout the fight. Where are those attribute points being used, that they provide a bigger benefit than this? I don't see how not using attack skills is a justification to (seemingly) without purpose, gimping one's character in damage potential.

Quote:

Also, MA damage ignores Prot Spirit sometimes due to it hitting under the 48hp mark at odd times, and the fact that the damage can come in small but rapid amounts. To beat MA damage and most Ranger damage you want Shielding Hands.

So sometimes Protective Spirit does nothing because the damage is below it's threshold anyway ... well that's obvious. Same can be said of any normal or buffed QS attack. Just normal attacks buffed by Read the Wind or Kindle Arrows under Tiger's Fury will have the same (nay, better, since Kindle would come in a seperate damage "packet") effect as Melandru's Arrows, when firing on a target under Protective Spirit.

The fact that sometimes your character makes a hit that rolls under 48 damage, really doesn't excuse MA's utter irrelevance when shooting a target under Protective Spirit. You may as well not even have MA on your skill bar, for all the good it's doing you (well, aside from the totally awesome bleeding).

If the damage is capped under a certain value, wouldn't the character with the higher rate of fire result in higher overall damage?
That's why I think QS is better under the NR metagame. Many (though not all) of the enchantments Melandru's Arrows relies upon for extra damage, are no longer in play. And QS is better against the enchants that are stil used (RoF, Prot Spirit, etc), simply because it deals the same damage, but faster.

Aug 12, 2005, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Well ask yourself this, how many attack skills in the Marskmanship line are worth pumping MS up to 14 for when your primary damage dealing skill is in WS?

Switch target on prot spirit spammers to spread bleeding throughout the whole team and force triage.

The reason I said you dont worry about PS is because it doesn't cap MA efficiently. a 480 HP character getting pegged for 48 damage/per bow shot ignoring 15%>stance and TF is still going to be in trouble. Your more worried about something like Shielding Hands which directly breaks MA apart since it's applied to every individual hit as far as I've seen.

The character with the higher rof doesn't automatically result in higher dps for 2 reasons: A QS guy isn't shooting seperate damage packets like a MA guy so the damage comparisons arent straight forward. Secondly, you have to give them fair time intervals because QS spammers run out of energy far faster than MA guys. Which is why I said before in the long term after the 9 pips of degen(Zrave says QS=-9 pips) then the already close race between them both starts to shift in favor of MA. The advantage with QS is the short term spike, MA can spike as well as QS but it wont be as fast, but still comparable.

Ender Ward · Aug 13, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Well ask yourself this, how many attack skills in the Marskmanship line are worth pumping MS up to 14 for when your primary damage dealing skill is in WS?

On a Melandru's Build, outside of Pin Down, no attack skills directly benefit from higher Marksmanship.

Indirectly, though, every single hit you're going to make for the duration of combat is going to benefit from higher than 9 marksmanship. By 30% more damage to be exact (before buffs). It is the difference between doing 29 damage + Kindle (example prep) and doing 40 damage + Kindle.

You seem to keep dodging the question, though. What are you doing with those attribute points that you 'save' by dropping Marksmanship to 9? Surely (no Shirly jokes please!) upping Wilderness Survival from 12 to 14 and gaining a mere 2 point increase in damage cannot possibly justify giving up 11 points of damage on every hit that build is ever going to make.

It doesn't matter that you use no attack skills reliant on Marksmanship (outside of Pin Down). Every single arrow you shoot is reliant on Marksmanship ...

Quote:

Switch target on prot spirit spammers to spread bleeding throughout the whole team and force triage.

Martyr.

Quote:

The reason I said you dont worry about PS is because it doesn't cap MA efficiently. a 480 HP character getting pegged for 48 damage/per bow shot ignoring 15%>stance and TF is still going to be in trouble.

Well that's precisely what I said ... that just normal shots under Tiger's Fury would be as effective as Melandru's Arrows buffed shots when attacking a target under Protective Spirit. Even better with Kindle, as the damage from the preparation would not be capped at all by PS.

However something's wrong with your statement that PS doesn't cap MA efficiently. When firing on a target not covered by Protective Spirit (but under an enchant), I often hit as high as 70-90 damage (sometimes 100 on a critical) per arrow. That is most definitely capped quite harshly by Protective Spirit.

Quote:

Your more worried about something like Shielding Hands which directly breaks MA apart since it's applied to every individual hit as far as I've seen.

I actually worry not at all about Shielding Hands with an MA build. What is 18 out of every 70-90 damage? It's a band aid on a gashing wound ...

Quote:

The character with the higher rof doesn't automatically result in higher dps for 2 reasons: A QS guy isn't shooting seperate damage packets like a MA guy so the damage comparisons arent straight forward.

Erm ... that makes no sense at all. A hit buffed up by Melandru's Arrows shows up as one value, just like RtW and FW do. This one big value, one "packet" is capped by Protective Spirit.

On the other hand, QS builds do abit less damage, in slightly smaller "packets" stil capped by Protective Spirit. Yet QS builds output those "packets" faster, resulting in more damage per time period.

Even better, if we're talking about QS used with Kindle Arrows as the preparation, the damage from Kindle isn't affected at all, as it's way under the 48 damage cap, and it arrives in a seperate value, seperate "packet" from the main bow damage.

Indeed, when firing at a target under Protective Spirit, there's no better build than a QS Ranger (non-QZ type) with Kindle Arrows as the preparation (and, ironically, Conjure as well, since that too will arrive in a seperate packet, not capped by Protective Spirit).

Quote:

Secondly, you have to give them fair time intervals because QS spammers run out of energy far faster than MA guys. Which is why I said before in the long term after the 9 pips of degen(Zrave says QS=-9 pips) then the already close race between them both starts to shift in favor of MA. The advantage with QS is the short term spike, MA can spike as well as QS but it wont be as fast, but still comparable.

This is only true if you're talking about the Quickening Zephyr style QS builds. The kind that presses the button and fire like a machine gun for 12 seconds then run totally dry.

The QS builds doing the normal + QS sequence don't run out of energy for a very, very long time. You just don't use Judge's Insight if you see a target is under Protective Spirit (easily noticed by seing the very same damage value again and again), saving your energy this way.
Remember, the normal + QS sequence when used with a zealous bow, results in no energy lost. The only thing you're spending energy on is recasting RtW/Kindle (2 energy every 12/24 seconds) and Tiger's Fury every 10-12 seconds (4-5 energy). This hardly taxes the 2 pips of regeneration you have going in the background.

Ofcourse when one has invested 14 into marksmanship, is taking advantage of Favourable Winds and is using a preparation for another +10-20 damage, almost every shot wil be above 50 damage, and therefore be capped by Protective Spirit.
And seing as one is then (thanks to QS) firing much faster than with a Melandru's Arrows build, the QS build is clearly causing more harm to the target by demanding a faster expenditure of energy on healing.

P.S.
My hatt's off to you, Blackace for actually engaging in an intelligent discussion. Such a breath of fresh air after the "Hahahaa, wrong! wrong!!1!" type of replies that filled this thread.

Aug 13, 2005, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Martyr can be shutdown, but nevertheless it's a good counter to mass bleeding. But the option is to spike through prot spirit protected target or a non-prot spirit protected target. Your MA is up longer than PS so you can still beat it. I'm not ignoring how powerful Martyr is though, anytime trying to fight through it with brute force conditioning is going to have a lot of trouble.

Sorry I didnt know I was dodging the question. Are you using a 9 marks bow and then jumping to 14, or 12->14 for the 11 point damage increase. You could be right because I did the math off the top of my head for MS increases past 9 for a 9 req bow.

The damage increase for pumping WS isn't just 2. Remember a MA guy is pumping Dual shot which ends up being your tradeoff for not pumping MS. In essence it's the same idea when playing with cyclone axe, hundred blades and orders: If you have the option to pump one single hitting ability or an ability that hits in multiples at reduced damage which do you pump? Of course math has to be done on both but in most cases hitting twice when buffed beats out hitting once when buffed. I'll have to run the math on both builds(QS and MA) for exact figures to justify why I'm not pumping up MS.

Yea I was definetly wrong about it not being capped efficiently by PS. See, I was under the impression we were looking at 40-60 dps ranges of MA which will happen with half-assed attempts of its use, which means PS isnt going to exactly crush it. However those 70+dps MA figures are also possible(I've done them myself

) so those do get crushed by PS for real.

The reason I'm worried about SH is because I think it hits every damage buff seperatly. Which means even a 70-90 damage standard arrow gets broken down into Ma, "attack buffs through direct means", and the attack speed buff which doesnt get touched. If this doesn't hold true then PS is far more dangerous to MA, which would definetly be in favor of the MA due to it being a Ranger skill and Rangers being more hurt by SH than PS.

The damage packets I was referring to was under Dual Shot and other bow attacks like Penetrating Attack, which doesnt work with QS hence the seperate damage packet argument. The PA of course is "packeted" along with the MA which results in Prot Spirit death, but the DS of course sends off two packets with reduced damage but the advantage of triggering any buff twice also.

No arguments about Kindle+QS. Its one of the worst things guy under prot spirit can be hit by since its fast, medium damage and the spikes are usually teetering on the prot spirit cap to make most people kinda pissed by it. However, I like Choking Gas+QS better for the interruption effect.

Actually a QS build without Zephyr but TF is still going to have an energy problem since it's still as much energy as you can spike out per QS arrow. Or in other words QS/shot/QS/shot+TF. The Zealous bow can even out the QS spam to a degree(depending on lulls) but the TF spam is the one that makes you run out of energy. However, I'm pretty sure it is definetly infinite with pacing and weapon switching but I'm the type that has no patience so I will run dry at some time

Yes QS builds also have another advantage you mentioned that I ignored: Energy draining. The amount of energy that a nice QS setup requires to counter depends on the protections used, but if the target isn't assisted properly soon that player is about to be spiked.

The advantage to MA along with a few others though is hiding spikes with Dots and it's self spiking nature. What we did with one build that had moderate success was use Dots and Energy denial to spike out teams. We couldnt do it with QS due to the amount of energy that would have been needed on those rangers, and the fact that MA is auto-bleeding. Over time a MA build is going to make up for its lower damage by taxing monks on long term energy and hiding spikes which a QS build just cant do. But both skills are top-notch Ranger elites, and both are one of the reasons Rangers have the best selection of elite skills in the game because its kind of hard to go wrong.

Mind Wallaby · Aug 13, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ender Ward

Assuming a 'perfect 35% bow' that any PvP character has access to, the difference between 9 and 14 Marksmanship is the difference between doing 29 and 40 damage per shot.

It looks like you're still focusing on maximum damage in your comparisons, which is misleading because maximum damage is not a faithful representation of your real damage output (you only hit that value about 6% of the time). It's more accurate to calculate the expected damage directly. So let's run the numbers:

Assuming a 15-28 bow, critical hits are about 40 and non-critical hits average 21.5.

Your chance to get a critical hit is (to the best of my knowledge) 12.25% with Marks 9 and 18.5% with Marks 14.

Then your expected damage before damage mods will be:
9 Marks: 23.8
14 Marks: 24.9

Damage modification is 77% for Marks 9 and 107% for Marks 14. Now throw in the 20% customization and 15% damage mod (which are multiplicative, not additive) and you obtain as your expected damage:

Marks 9: 25.3
Marks 14: 36.8

So in this case it looks like there is indeed about an 11 point difference in expected damage.

UberRusty · Aug 13, 2005, 01:00 PM // 13:00

Quote:

It might as well not even be there. So I'm not really sure why you brought up Protective Spirit.

What are you talking about? My MA hits for 70 constant, and I'm not realy sure what your point is. I am not going to be soloing a team on my own, as you said in another post. Protective Spirit will be used, Air Spikers are still alright with their enchantments off, OR in an organized team they will cast after NR is plopped.

Sofia Sofia Sofia · Aug 13, 2005, 03:24 PM // 15:24

I tried out Ender's Build with JI, RtW, FW, and TF. Using a flatbow, you deal a decent amount of damage to casters, but it is virtually useless against warriors. To be honest, I don't think that any of the Ranger skills are good warrior killers.

Neo-LD · Aug 13, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

11+3 Marks
11+2 Expertise
8+1 Wilderness
3+1 Beast

Debilitating Shot
Distracting Shot
Quick Shot {E}
Tigers Fury
Favorable Winds
Pin Down/Throw Dirt/Natures Renewal (depends on what team needs)
Kindle Arrows
Res Sig

Is the QS build Im currently using. Usually I have my guildie smiter cast JI for me. Sometimes hes not around and I still kill stuff fast. JI just makes it overkill. Was just wondering what other people thought about it, seeing as how we have a QS thread and all

I tried to add in some counters to common issues Ive had, like mass enchants, mass warriors, and dual monk

Ender Ward · Aug 13, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

I don't see how Melandru's Arrows (MA) lasts longer than Protective Sprit (PS). On our Monks, PS usually lasts 18 - 23 seconds (I'm sure it's similar for other teams). Melandru's Arrows lasts a maximum of 18 seconds. And ofcourse if a target is consistently under fire, it will keep getting renewed cover by PS from enemy Monks.

The requirement of the bow does not matter, really (and ofcourse all PvP bows are 9 req.). The 11 points difference in damage is from 9 to 14.

Going from 12 to 14 in Wilderness Survival increases MA damage by 2 points, per arrow.
Yes, if you are using Dual Shot (a very good idea in a MA build), you get 2x the benefit from MA. However, you need to account for the fact that you also lose 11 points of damage per arrow, in that Dual Shot. Indeed, at Marksmanship 9, instead of being only 25% weaker, each arrow in the Dual Shot is now a whopping 55% weaker, than if the character's Marksmanship was at 14. You gain twice the benefit of Melandru's, twice the benefit of Favourable Winds, twice the benefit of Judge's Insight armor penetration, but at the same time, you lose 30% damage per arrow because of low Marksmanship.

My point is that this doesn't have to be a choice. One can have strong base arrow damage, in a Dual Shot, and very strong Melandru's Arrows. By keeping Marksmanship at 12-14, and keeping Wilderness Survival at 12 as well. This is not a choice one has to make (investment into Markmanship vs into Wilderness), sacrificing either one is needless.

14 Marksmanship (10 + 1 + 3)
12 Wilderness Survival (9 + 3)
09 Expertise (8 + 1)
09 Beast Mastery (8 + 1)
05 Smiting Prayers

Is hardly impossible to achieve. Do you see what I mean? Why choose one at the expense of another, when you can have both?

I'm sorry if I sounded confrontational when I said you were dodging the question. I meant that you aren't giving me the answer to the question of where are the attribute points spent better, to justify such a drastic reduction in damage?
I'm forced to ask it yet again, though, as I just can't understand the justification for leaving Marksmanship that low.

Usually when I play that MA build, I hit for 60 - 90 damage. And the Guru calculators agree with my experience, as assuming a +24 damage from MA, +6 damage from Favourable Winds and 20% AP from Judge's Insight, one's damage potential at 14 Marksmanship becomes 64 - 87 per arrow.
So it really sucks when all of that damage potential is wasted due to PS capping it at ~48 damage

.

I too am a very big fan of Choking Gas

. Our interrupter Rangers make extensive use of it. Though we don't use Quickshot as the elite, in their case.

I'll have to again disagree on the energy efficiency. A QS build doing shot/QS/shot/QS under Tiger's Fury, does not actually have huge energy problems at all. You aren't losing energy on that shot/QS sequence. You gain 1 energy with the normal shot, and you lose 1 energy on the QS (-2 for QS + 1 from Zealous). You end up with 0 energy used. All that remains is 4-5 energy for Tiger's Fury every 10 seconds, and every 12-24 seconds 2 energy for a preparation.
It's quite efficient.

I'm not sure I understand what you wrote about spiking through "DoTs and energy draining". Not getting what you're trying to explain

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind Wallaby

It looks like you're still focusing on maximum damage in your comparisons, which is misleading because maximum damage is not a faithful representation of your real damage output (you only hit that value about 6% of the time).

[snip]

So in this case it looks like there is indeed about an 11 point difference in expected damage.

In this particular example I did not need to show the entire damage range. The 30% difference is in play at both the minimum and the maximum damage, and at every point inbetween.

That's the reason your calculations confirm my statement

It goes like this:

At 14 Marksmanship, an "ideal +35% bow" does 21.7-40.51 damage.

At 12 Marksmanship, an "ideal +35% bow" does 20.25-37.8 damage.

At 9 Marksmanship, an "ideal +35% bow" does 15.61-29.15

In my opinion this clearly indicates that one should always strive to have his/her Marksmanship at a minimum of 12.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberRusty

What are you talking about? My MA hits for 70 constant, and I'm not realy sure what your point is.

Your Melandru's Arrows hits for 70. Protective Spirit on your target caps it at 48 damage (or whatever is 10% of the target's health). Even though PS is an enchant, and activates the damage bonus on Melandrus Arrows, said bonus is rendered irrelevant because of the damage cap.

At the same time, a normal QS + Preparation + Favourable Winds build hits for over 48 damage as well, but is also capped to the very same value as the MA build (which would normally have higher damage per arrow potential).

Both builds, thanks to Protective Spirit, cannot exceed the same damage value (48). However, the QS build fires significantly faster than the MA build. And is therefore able to put more pressure on enemy energy resources.

Is this a better explanation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofia Sofia Sofia

I tried out Ender's Build with JI, RtW, FW, and TF. Using a flatbow, you deal a decent amount of damage to casters, but it is virtually useless against warriors. To be honest, I don't think that any of the Ranger skills are good warrior killers.

This is surprising. I hit for 60-80 on stationary casters, 90 or higher on moving ones. Perhaps our definition of "decent" is different.

As for being virtually useless against Warriors, that is also very surprising, as I usually hit in the 45-55 range on non frenzying, stationary Warriors. You'd be hard pressed to find a Ranger or Warrior build that does more damage, at such rate of fire. Even though a Melandru's Arrows build on an enchanted warrior will do more damage per arrow, it won't have the same rate of fire.

But ofcourse killing warriors is far from the goal of the build. Warriors are cleaned up by focus fire when all the (important) casters are dead.