Curse

Ender Ward · Aug 08, 2005, 05:31 PM // 17:31

I'll try to address each point individually, without making the post very long ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Quick shot without QZ is completely and utterly laughable.

Quickshot with quickening zephyr is laughable.

You took out a target in 10 seconds? Congratulations, you now have 0 energy (or close to that). How long before you're able to contribute killing the other 3-7 targets?

I take out a target in approximately 15 seconds (less if my Distracting/Concussion hit a spell). But I've not blown all my energy though. I can start killing another target almost immidiately.

That's rambo style, ofcourse, which is what it seems you're talking about.

This is a team game, and people focus fire. You being able to kill a caster on your own in 10 seconds isn't worth much, when you can't do that again. Compared to mutiple (non-QZ) QS rangers taking out the same target in mere seconds, without breaking a sweat energy wise. When your arrows do 80-90 damage you don't bloody need to fire every 2/3 seconds. Twice in just under 2 seconds is enough.

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alternating between QS and normal shot, its twice everyone 2 seconds (? correct me if I'm wrong please, but, but it's noticeably slower).

A Flat/Short/Half Moon under Tiger's Fury fires a normal shot in 1.33 seconds, this is immidiately followed by the Quickshot, and then the character takes a "rest" for half a second. So roughly, in just under 2 seconds you've indeed fired twice. Or slightly better than an arrow once a second.

No, this obviously isn't as fast as spamming QS under QZ, but it's magnitudes more sustainable, the damage is actually greater as the arrows do double the damage than that of a R/W with Kindle, and you aren't under threat of double damage.

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Sure if you alternate you would be "more sustainable", but if you think that's a good thing, you're missing the entire point of spike damage.

Heh, my build is spike damage. Yours comes in little packets one right after another over a 10 second period.

Who really cares that you can kill a target in those 10 seconds? Your character's damage output drops like a stone afterwards. Even an Elementalist doesn't burn himself out in 10 seconds.

Let's make it simple:

Kill one character in 10 seconds but be unable to do it again for some time.

VS

Kill one character in 12-15 seconds, and be able to repeat that in a few seconds.

In a game where you need to kill multiple casters (and then clean up warriors and rangers), which one is more valuable?

Quote:

And yes, a R/W beats out a R/M in DPS, although DP hit is very close, since I can have a +20 prep instead of a +10 AND have 10% innate AP from horn bow, while you'd only have 20% AP in all, since you'd be forced to use a short or flat for decent RoF.

*laugh*

Actually you only have +4 damage over my set up (wow!). Favourable Winds and Read The Wind stack up for +16 damage, damage which happens to be affected by Judge's Insight. Being coverted to holy and benefitting from the 20% armor penetration.
Unlike Kindle, which would not benefit JI. And I'm pretty certain Kindle does not benefit from the innate 10% armor penetration on the Horn Bow.

Next, if you bothered to read, I've done tests with a Horn Bow, for a total 30% armor penetration (assuming it and JI stack).

Is your R/W capable of 81 (max) damage on a stationary target? Is it capable of 93 damage on a moving target? Slightly under once a second?

Didn't think so ...

So pardon my French, but R/W has better damage my arse.

Quote:

AND you're probably not even that much more sustainable than a R/W combination, considering the MUCH higher cost of your buffs.

Not only is my build perfectly sustainable, but I even have energy to spare to use Distracting in Tombs/GvG as soon as it becomes available, or Concussion in the Arenas.

Unlike QZ builds, I have 0 net energy loss from using the normal + quickshot sequence with a zealous bow.

Quote:

During MY downtime, I can still be hitting a monk with distracting shot, or buffing my team with healing spring or "Watch yourself!" Something your build cannot.

Healing Spring? Watch yourself? Are you joking? This is supposed to justify your character's stone drop in damage output?

*laughs*

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And I laugh whenever anyone say things like "leave all the defense to the monk and concentrate on killing the target."

Actually that's exactly what you're supposed to do.

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Well guess what: that statement is wrong twofold. 1) Warrior shouts are instant cast, meaning it won't affect my killing rate in the least,

You mean the pathetic killing rate you have once you're completely out of energy?

So your defensive moves consist of ... "Watch Yourself!"? You think +20 armor is going to allow you to use Frenzy? You're deluding youself.

Quote:

Also, frenzy's double damage is not as not as big a downside as you make it out to be. If you did decide to target call me, I'd laugh that you werent concentrating on my monk or mes,

If you bothered to read, I stated that I would take out a monk first, obviously. After that, I won't need to call you as target, I can kill a frenzied Ranger on my own in seconds, thank you very much. While my team-mates will take out any other casters.

Quote:

And then I'd laugh again because your attacks would have to go through higher AL than your build has, +7 from bow grip and +20 from "Watch Yourself!" which reduces damage by about 40%. All in all, the ability to give your monk +20 AL and take VERY LITTLE more damage yourself is very worth it.

The most armor you can get against "everything" on a grip is +5, not +7 (vs physica OR vs Elemental, not both).

So your +25 armor is going to save you under Frenzy? That's a 31% reduction in damage. Congratulations, you're now taking 169% damage instead of 200% damage. Good luck with that.

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And lastly, Prep time. Your build spends about 6 TIMES longer than mine prepping with the current NR metagame.

Actualy I spend 3 times as long as you to prepare, under Nature's Renewal. 4 seconds cast time for JI + 2 seconds cast time for preparation.

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I spend 2 of 24 seconds, while you spend 6-7 of 12 or so. That gives me, in 24 seconds, about 11 more seconds than you to do anything. 10 seconds is more than enough time for a QS build to SINGLE-HANDEDLY take down a good monk build even backed by a good monk player.

I don't know, overall I still think W secondary is better.

That's all wonderfull. However, in the 12-15 seconds after I got my buffs up, I kill a caster target. You do (if one is to take your word) slightly faster. However, I can move on to the next target and do it again in a few seconds. I haven't blown all my energy. Can you state the same? That is the question ...

Yea Sue Me · Aug 08, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

roffle...noob

with any decent level into expertise spamming a 5 mana skill under QZ will not drain you.

and your using concussion shot which is 25 mana and claiming you can take down targets more efficiently...for the amount of mana you just spent on concussion (we'll assume your expertise is decent and put concussion shot at 17 mana) I get off 6-8 quick shots...

the point is rangers can operate under QZ very easily...and if you start getting low on mana..

SURPRISE!!!! you have a secondary class <offering of blood, energy drain, drain enchantment, inspired enchantment, inspired hex.........plenty of ways to get mana back>

[/owned]

loc87 · Aug 08, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

... if you're going to go around attempting to make fun of other people and callling them a "noob," at least spell rofl right, jeez ...

if you use something like offering of blood, thats a max gain of 13 energy ... which you'll use in about 5 quick shots, which conveniently take 2 seconds, while offering of blood recharges in 7, gj!

inspired hex and enchantment recharge in like 20 seconds ...

plus you gotta actually put attribute points into the other attribute. not to mention it screws up your casters.

Ender Ward · Aug 08, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yea Sue Me

with any decent level into expertise spamming a 5 mana skill under QZ will not drain you.

QS under QZ drains you in 15 seconds, tops.

Quote:

and your using concussion shot which is 25 mana and claiming you can take down targets more efficiently...for the amount of mana you just spent on concussion (we'll assume your expertise is decent and put concussion shot at 17 mana) I get off 6-8 quick shots...

Learn expertise effects. Concussion Shot costs me 12 energy.

Learn your attack skills. Concussion shot is immidiate, just like a QS or Distracting Shot. You can put it right in the normal + quickshot + concussion chain.

So you can get off 6-8 quickshots in the the same it takes the rest of us to get off 1 quickshot/distracting/concussion? Bullshit.

Quote:

the point is rangers can operate under QZ very easily...and if you start getting low on mana..

SURPRISE!!!! you have a secondary class

Oh dear god ... speaking of owning:

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<offering of blood

Is Elite. Quickshot is Elite.

Quote:

energy drain,

Is Elite. Quickshot is Elite.

Quote:

drain enchantment, inspired enchantment, inspired hex.........plenty of ways to get mana back>

On a Warriors secondary that's supposed to be the end all be all of QS Ranger? Wow, you rock!

But assuming you do go with a Mesmer secondary ...

Drain Enchantment: gain of 10 energy in ... 25 seconds, aaaawesome (/sarcasm). Conditional on the target actually having an enchantment.

Inspired Enchantment: gainst of 3 energy in 20 seconds. Wow that's unbelievably good (/sarcasm) Conditional on the target actually having an enchantment.

Inspired Hex: gain of 8 energy in 20 seconds. Rocking right on (/sacracm). Conditional on the ally being hexed.

And just how many points did you invest in Inspiration to make this awesomeness happen? Exactly ...

Quote:

[/owned]

Yourself? Quite well, yes.

Neo-LD · Aug 08, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yea Sue Me

roffle...noob

with any decent level into expertise spamming a 5 mana skill under QZ will not drain you.

and your using concussion shot which is 25 mana and claiming you can take down targets more efficiently...for the amount of mana you just spent on concussion (we'll assume your expertise is decent and put concussion shot at 17 mana) I get off 6-8 quick shots...

the point is rangers can operate under QZ very easily...and if you start getting low on mana..

SURPRISE!!!! you have a secondary class <offering of blood, energy drain, drain enchantment, inspired enchantment, inspired hex.........plenty of ways to get mana back>

[/owned]

Rofl is spelled R-O-F-L.

Please stop theorying and get with real. 33 mana, 4 per QS under QZ MINIMUM, EVEN IF YOU HAVE 16 EXPERTISE. Take 1 back for a zealous bow and you are down 3 energy per shot. That gives you 11 shots until you are dry, and 1 or 2 more including regen. You fire QS once every 1/2 second, so yo are dry in ~6 seconds. Hard fact. Absolutely no way to dispute that.

QS rangers under QZ can operate well for 6 seconds. After that they are just about as bad as you can get. For the last time people, QZ is the COUNTER to QS. THis is NOT difficult to understand!

Putting Points in a secondary attribute takes away from marks or expertise or wilderness. (Depends on what preps you're using) There is NO way that a QS ranger can fit in ANY of those energy recahrge moves without COMPLETELY screwing himself over in the damage department. Not to mention that half your suggested skills are elite.

I had fun reading/responding to that, but please think just a little bit next time before you post and own yourself again.

Enigmatics · Aug 08, 2005, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yea Sue Me

roffle...noob

with any decent level into expertise spamming a 5 mana skill under QZ will not drain you.

and your using concussion shot which is 25 mana and claiming you can take down targets more efficiently...for the amount of mana you just spent on concussion (we'll assume your expertise is decent and put concussion shot at 17 mana) I get off 6-8 quick shots...

the point is rangers can operate under QZ very easily...and if you start getting low on mana..

SURPRISE!!!! you have a secondary class <offering of blood, energy drain, drain enchantment, inspired enchantment, inspired hex.........plenty of ways to get mana back>

[/owned]

I believe in giving degenerates and people who aren't old enough to read, breaks. So bear with him. Anyway -It's very hard to forsee what Quickening Zypher will do to your own team, let alone your opponents. Most rangers who pack it are lessening the durability, versatility, or outright damage of their teammates. Oh, and stat points distributed completely into Kindle Arrows won't give quite as much damage as using both Conjure Flame and Kindle Arrows.

Neo-LD · Aug 08, 2005, 09:06 PM // 21:06

But then you cant use a zealous string =/

Ensign · Aug 08, 2005, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Just a couple technical points to toss into the arena:

First, Expertise works on the post-Zephyr energy costs. Basically assume that your 5 energy skills cost 7, the 10 energy ones 13, then apply Expertise to that. You get a 3 energy break point on 5 energy skills at 13, and a 5 energy breakpoint on 10 energy skills at 15.

Quick Shot's description is wrong. It should read 'look at those numbers on the right'. Quick Shot has a 1 second use time that's affected by speed buffs.

Recharge times are never fractions of a second - it rounds. Quick Shot + Zephyr has no recharge time, as it rounds .5 seconds down to 0.

Armor Penetration uses a bunch of messy rounding - it rounds the target's armor to the nearest even number, not the nearest interger. In addition, it seems like armor penetration does *not* affect armor bonuses from weapons, and perhaps shields.

Peace,
-CxE

cdepue79 · Aug 08, 2005, 09:25 PM // 21:25

with Kindle arrows and Conjure flame you don't need a fiery bowstring, you can still use a zealous.

Ender Ward · Aug 08, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdepue79

The damage from this is very nice, I got one shot vs necro of 84 and one vs a elem of 90, but the constant casting JI, RTW, and TF kinda sucks.

*shrug*

You get used to the sequence, it becomes second nature.

Hitting in low 90s on moving casters and mid 70s on stationary ones is more than worth it.

I brought Marksmanship down to 15, to get the duration up on JI, the damage would be alittle higher with 16 in Marksmanship).

And I went back to my Flatbow.
The Horn Bow does produce abit better damage with it's innate penetration, but it's slower. Enough to make a difference in the amount of arrows I output during those 15 seconds duration on JI (13s + 2s from 20% Bow Grip).

If my guild ever starts using Smiters in our builds that can put JI on me, I'll drop Monk secondary entirely and invest those points into Conjure, getting buffed for yet more damage.

'Cause QS builds are all about buffing those arrows ...

Ender Ward · Aug 08, 2005, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

First, Expertise works on the post-Zephyr energy costs. Basically assume that your 5 energy skills cost 7, the 10 energy ones 13, then apply Expertise to that. You get a 3 energy break point on 5 energy skills at 13, and a 5 energy breakpoint on 10 energy skills at 15.

I can confirm this from my own experience. A QS user under Quicknening Zephyr will use 3 energy per shot (not 4, sorry Neo). Thus gaining back one with zelous, for a net loss of 2 energy per shot.

Assuming usage of Frenzy, one will run dry in just under 15 seconds assuming one started with full 32 energy.

Quote:

In addition, it seems like armor penetration does *not* affect armor bonuses from weapons, and perhaps shields.

Peace,
-CxE

Interesting info.

cdepue79 · Aug 08, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

I had 14 marks for the max damage from RTW. I had JI lasting about 12 seconds. Although I also put remaining pts in wilderness for Troll urgent since i was trying this out in 4 vs 4 random. I agree with you on using flatbow. For QS using QZ sure go with Horn bow, but since this is also shooting normal arrows and i bring Distract shot the flatbows ROF is definately better and I like the extra range.

AtomicMew · Aug 09, 2005, 12:47 AM // 00:47

ROFL, your argument against QZ is so incredibly flawed its laughable. Remember that QZ is a GLOBAL AFFECTER - and which team is better prepared for its effects? Your team, or the other team which didn't take it? LOL.

Quote:

That's all wonderfull. However, in the 12-15 seconds after I got my buffs up, I kill a caster target. You do (if one is to take your word) slightly faster. However, I can move on to the next target and do it again in a few seconds. I haven't blown all my energy. Can you state the same? That is the question ...

Where did you get the idea that a R/W isn't sustainable? 12 seconds at 80 DPS is huge! I suppose you think that because after an elementalist unloads he can't do anything means that the elementalist class sucks, right?

Ooops, but guess what! A R/W can ALSO alternate between QS and normal and still deal out DPS equivalent to a moronic R/MO build, I guess you forgot about that huh.

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Healing Spring? Watch yourself? Are you joking? This is supposed to justify your character's stone drop in damage output?

Stone drop in damage output? What the hell are you talking about?

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The most armor you can get against "everything" on a grip is +5, not +7 (vs physica OR vs Elemental, not both).

Ranger already has more than enough defense vs. elements.

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Actualy I spend 3 times as long as you to prepare, under Nature's Renewal. 4 seconds cast time for JI + 2 seconds cast time for preparation.

ROFL check how long JI insight lasts compared to kindle. Again, laughable argument and completely false.

All in all, it comes down to the fact that frenzy doesn't work for you, while it does for me. In that case, it just takes a couple points in BM, as you yourself has pointed out, to get tiger's fury. And guess what, the damage output is still light years ahead of your build that spends MORE THAN HALF the time prepping to become more "sustainable" when in fact, you are not even that. Utterly laughable.

Neo-LD · Aug 09, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Conjure Flame reads "while wielding a fire weapon". Kindle does not change your bow's damage type, and its damage isnt even added directly to the shot, it deals its damage independently. So it seems to me that you cant use Conjure without an elemental bowstring...

<assuming someonepoints out to me that Im wrong and it indeed is somehow possible>

There seems to be alot of spreading voer lots of attributes here. Nearly maxed marls, minimum 13 expertise, some Beast for TF, I was thinking to get rid of smiting by moving that to an allied smiter...but now we want to put in an element!?!?!?!? People its not possible. To get any respectable damage out of conjure you need ~10 points. I was thinking of high level beast for long TF, but theres no way if we add fire.

Just about as good as we can get it is

11+3 Marks
11+1+1 Expertise
8 <insert element here>
3+1 Beast

We get the 2 energy breakpoint for QS, 7 second TF, enough for respectable Conjure, and the rest dumped like mad into marksmanship. Remember to get your friendly neighborhood smiter to cast JI on you.

I wont defend himon taking JI (sorry Ender) I will challenge you regarding QZ. With the "current spirit meta-game" if you meet a team not prepared to battle under QZ, you arent in danger of losing anyways. They stink.

IF you are going to noramal/QZ like a normal QS ranger, why are you going to cripple yourself with QZ? Also, QZ requires wilderness, which I currently finding myself drifting away from for my QS ranger.

btw I thank all of you for one of the first intelligent and productive discussions Ive seen here in a while.

Ender Ward · Aug 09, 2005, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Conjure Flame reads "while wielding a fire weapon". Kindle does not change your bow's damage type, and its damage isnt even added directly to the shot, it deals its damage independently. So it seems to me that you cant use Conjure without an elemental bowstring...

<assuming someonepoints out to me that Im wrong and it indeed is somehow possible>

Conjure works with Kindle even if your weapon isn't elemental.

It shouldn't, but it does.

Quote:

Just about as good as we can get it is

11+3 Marks
11+1+1 Expertise
8 <insert element here>
3+1 Beast

Actually as already posted, I currently have:

15 Marksmanship (11 + 1 + 3)
13 Expertise (10 + 3)
09 Beast Mastery (8 + 1)
06 Smiting Prayers

Which results in a nice 15 second JI when using a 20% longer enchants bow grip.

If you drop Marksmanship to 14 and raise Smiting to 8, you get an 18 second JI using a 20% longer enchants bow grip.

If you have an external source of Judge's Insight, you can do:

14 Marksmanship (11 + 1 + 3)
13 Expertise (10 + 3)
09 Beast Mastery (8 + 1)
08 {Insert Element} Magic

Which, for 10 energy, for 60 seconds, raises your damage by a decent +9. This is in addition to RtW, Favourable Winds and JI improving your damage.

Neo-LD · Aug 09, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

But that uses 2 sup runes. Sacrilege!

Ender Ward · Aug 09, 2005, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

But that uses 2 sup runes. Sacrilege!

Hey, why? You're a Ranger. The 4th target on the priority list.

Ender Ward · Aug 09, 2005, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

which team is better prepared for its effects? Your team, or the other team which didn't take it? LOL.

Making team builds not capable of functioning under Nature's Renewal and Quickening Zephyr, these days, is idiotic.

It's also equally idiotic to let a team reliant on QZ to keep taking advantage of it, instead of killing the spirit in 5 shots.

Quote:

Where did you get the idea that a R/W isn't sustainable?

From using that exact build.

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12 seconds at 80 DPS is huge!

Where did you pull that 80 damage per second figure out of, your arse?
You've got nothing but normal bow damage + Kindle Arrows to improve your damage. I know from using this build that your max damage hovers around 50 per arrow.

You'd need to pile on buffs some more to get to 80 damage per second (or for QS builds, per arrow).

Quote:

I suppose you think that because after an elementalist unloads he can't do anything means that the elementalist class sucks, right?

There's a difference between your QS setup and an Elementalist. You run dry in 12 seconds and then you're done. For a good long while, you're nowhere close to your claimed 80 dps.

The Elementaist on the other hand, under dual attunement or Ether Renewal, takes a good minute or longer to run dry, constantly casting. Not to mention that an Ether Renewal based Elementalist can quickly replenish his energy pool unlike your R/W.

It's a difference between downing one target and then twiddling your thumbs for a while, and downing several targets then having to regen energy (or not, under Ether Renewal).

Quote:

Ooops, but guess what! A R/W can ALSO alternate between QS and normal

And deal nowhere close to the damage per arrow as a JI enhanced build.

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Stone drop in damage output? What the hell are you talking about?

Talking about what your character does after you've blown all of your energy killing a single target.

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ROFL check how long JI insight lasts compared to kindle.

With 6 in Smiting (means 15 Marksmanship in the build), using a 20% longer enchants bow grip, Judge's Insight lasts: 15 seconds.

With 8 in Smiting (means 14 Marksmanship in the build), using a 20% longer enchants bow grip, Judge's Insight lasts: 18 seconds.

Kindle Arrows lasts 24 seconds.

Judge's Insight coverts your entire damage to holy, and gives your entire damage range 20% armor penetration. It also affects the +16 damage you get from RtW and FW.

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All in all, it comes down to the fact that frenzy doesn't work for you, while it does for me.

No, what it comes down to is that R/W is a bad QS build. Not because of Frenzy (though it's not smart either), but because your per arrow damage is weak, and your so called "spike" damage output is unsustainable beyond the first target.

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And guess what, the damage output is still light years ahead of your build that spends MORE THAN HALF the time prepping to become more "sustainable" when in fact, you are not even that. Utterly laughable.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I've played with both. I wouldn't have settled on an inferior build. I'm a very competitive guy, I'll pick the build that gets me the best results. And I picked the build I posted. Not that R/W. I wonder why ...

Here is my build in full (just recently dropped marksmanship by 1) by the way:

Ranger/Monk

15 Markmanship
13 Expertise
09 Beast Mastery
06 Smiting Prayers

Quickshot
Distracting Shot (Tombs & GvG) / Concussion Shot (Arena)
Tiger's Fury
Read The Wind
Judge's Insight
Favourable Winds
Pin Down
Rez Signet

Zealous Flatbow of Enchanting (20%).

loc87 · Aug 09, 2005, 02:13 AM // 02:13

just pointing this out ... QS with QZ shoots 3 arrows in two seconds, so if one of his arrows does 50 damage, he's doing 150 in two seconds, or 75 DPS

Ender Ward · Aug 09, 2005, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Question to Charles Ensign, if you're stil reading this thread:

When using an Elemental weapon with a Conjure Element, the game seems to combine the conjure with the main weapon damage, displaying only one figure. Am I correct in this observation?

If you then enchanted this character with Judge's Insight, would the conversion to holy damage take place after the above "combination" or before? In other words, are Judge's Insight and Conjure Element mutually incompatible?