Curse

Tigris Of Gaul · Jul 21, 2005, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberRusty

You just contradicted yourself. You get more aldrenaline using Battle Rage than Frenzy. Battle Rage lasts 16 seconds. And if the target runs, you will catch up to it unless you are snared/blinded etc. But if you're snared or blinded, you're just a HP counter.

We need to meet in arena at least once with my Axe Spiker and YOUR Axe Spiker.

He didn't contradict himself. He said unloading adrenaline skills in the fastest time possible. There is no way you can argue that a warrior with Battle Rage can get off skills faster than a warrior with Frenzy.

Battle Rage will get those skills charged up faster. But that's not what a spiker does, a spiker unloads them as fast as possible. You keep calling your build a spiker, but it's not, it pumps out consistent damage but not in spike capabilities...

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 22, 2005, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Ok then, let's try this, you do Frenzy, I'll do Battle Rage {E}, you unload your adrenaline spikes, I'll unload MINE...

We'll see who survives ^_^.

In War v. War, it's a moot point, the Frenzied warrior will lose about 90% of the time. For obvious reasons I'm not going to point out.

But Battle Ragers don't have to worry about runners. Having a warrior stand next to you while frenzied is quite crazy.

2 things happen.

1. victim may run, which means you have to sprint. If he notices this, he'll stop running to negate your crits. When you frenzy, he'll run again. easy kite.

2. victim may ask ele to just chuck a lightning orb at you. you're toast.

Battle Ragers aren't as easy to notice as a Frenzied user. They swing at normal rate for a few seconds. Then suddenly unload a barrage of adrenaline skills that just come up every 2-3 swings. What's worse, these guys try to run from a Battle Rager only to get hit with ADRENALINE crits...

Either way, Battle Rage will win. I for one think it's perfect for axes since they have some very devastating low adrenaline skills - Disrupting Chop spam and penetrating Blow spam. And some down right catastrophic high adrenaline skills - Executioner's Chop ftw. Axe also has more adrenaline skills than either of the other two weapons.

The adrenaline requirement for BR is also very nice. I've been nailed by a pin down in BR only to Plague Touch the ranger who crippled me, then proceded to build up 4 easy hits on his crippled self, then own his behind...

Zeru · Jul 22, 2005, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Ok then, let's try this, you do Frenzy, I'll do Battle Rage {E}, you unload your adrenaline spikes, I'll unload MINE...

I have no idea what this means...but the earlier point of tigris and me still holds. If you are going to adrenaline spike someone you use frenzy, period. No ifs and buts, if you want to spike someone, you want to unload your adrenaline as fast as you can. It takes 50% longer to adren spike someone if you are using battle rage over frenzy and when you want to unload all your adren at once that is a gigantic deal (and plus a deep wound on eviscerate with the power of exec is WAY better than having to dismember then apply exec/pen etc especially only at 1.33 sec/swing).

In the end, it's not BR vs Frenzy, it's BR vs Frenzy+Eviscerate or Cleave (I have mixed feelings on cleave but eviscerate is insanely good). Don't forget that.

In the times I play warrior there is a big difference between playing BR sword user and Eviscerate/Frenzy Axe user.

My BR sword war generally stays on one target except when a spike is called. In certain builds I would use Ward against Foes to basically trap the monk completely and as most of the tombs teams blow and never have adequate snaring ability I can keep wailing on him for good, safe dps. This forces the monk to pay more attention to kiting and less to healing unless he's very good or very bad.

On the other hand, my Axe Evisc/Frenzier switches targets constantly. This is for several reasons: Constantly throwing on sprint is energy prohibitive and not safe. If my target starts kiting I either follow him for a bit if no soft enemies are near or I switch to the closest caster. Also, my goal is to both build adren for the spike and keep up a very high dps. It is a lot safer this way, unless it's a dias map and there is putrid danger I can keep frenzy on a very large amount of the time. When you're a monk, you must put most attention to the health bars and unless you're very good at multitasking (gogo SC skills

) you are going to be paying minimal attention to the enemy going after you unless it's consistent (you have to kite/heal/watch health/watch terrain for ways to kite effectively). Therefore you cannot put as much attention onto the warrior who keeps harassing you as you could if you were a warrior watching the monk you're hitting. Now, if the same warrior keeps coming after you for a considerable length of time, you will notice that he's attacking faster than he should or may even hear frenzys sound. On the other hand if he only stays on you for a number of seconds and then switches when you keep kiting you are much less likely to notice that he's using frenzy and even less likely to be sure enough to redirect your team to attack him (plus if you react fast enough you can cancel the frenzy with sprint and run back towards your monks; this will take some fire off of your casters and onto your heavy armor, giving your monks a respite).

Switching targets causes a big havoc for the monks. When I play monk it is painfully easy to heal one target who's being spiked, assuming we can catch him before he dies. If I'm not being targeted it requires very little attention at all. On the other hand if you have to deal with multiple people dropping health fast it is a lot harder and there is more danger of a misclick (still rare but very bad). As the only time I play non-energy denial or hammer war is when I have either double or quadruple buffs on me (not counting frenzy) I am going to be applying extremely high dps when hitting and it is difficult for monks to keep up with health bars that randomly drop extremely fast. This playstyle works fine for BR warriors too, except that your dps is nowhere near what frenzy/evisc does.

One of the biggest hit points for battle rage imo is that you don't need much energy if any. Stuff like Savage Slash or Hamstring might be nice for sword warriors and bulls strike is always a strong choice (trust me unless the monk is slowed in some way they can still kite quite decently sprint or no sprint). Depending on the build, you may not need any energy and this can be put to use very nicely. For example, Succor on two monks. Energy is always an issue for them and succor is definitely a plus if you aren't using any energy (you might want to consider that for your axe war; it beats the hell out of plague touch in organized tombs/gvg). There are many other uses; that's the first that came to mind.

It's very late and I'm tired; not sure where I'm going with this etc. Just know that there is much more to the choice than just a superficial outlook. Team build (lots of snares or no? are you going to have ward against foes? do your monks need energy regen? Do you need to buff stack yourself?) matters a great deal. Battle Rage is definitely not better in all circumstances. It is a lot more utility based than frenzy/evisc is. You have more flexibility, a lot more actually, but your overall potential for dps and spiking is much lower. Choose based on team build and your overall playing ability (for example if you are somehow caller it would be wiser to play with BR because calling requires a lot of attention and BR is much easier to play).

The Red Knight · Jul 22, 2005, 09:06 AM // 09:06

my w/n tombs build
8 curses
10+1 strength
12+1+3 axe
penetrating
eviscerate
disrupting
executioners/rake Depending on parts of the build
sprint
frenzy
rigor mortis
rend enchantments/defile flesh again depending on whats needed

two ways to go with axe pen cleave disrupt exec OR pen evis disrupt exec /rake frenzy and sprint FTW
at 16 axe eviscerate does +42 damage and deepwound

executioners does +42 also :X

Shadowfox1125 · Jul 22, 2005, 05:17 PM // 17:17

While y'all duke it out..

IMO Disrupting Chop & Dismember should be in any Axe Warrior build.

kuramaroze · Jul 22, 2005, 05:48 PM // 17:48

I would take this over your W/E axe build... Elementalists are for hammers...
And no, R/W sucks if you're using axes since expertese doesn't do jack shit for adrenal skills, and energy is no problem for an axe warrior...

W/N
10+2 axe
12+1 strength
8 curses

Eviscerate
Penetrating Blow
Swift Chop // Executioner's Strike (Although executioners strike has better DPS, swift chop is way more spammable, and cannot be blocked.)
Disrupting Chop
Plague Touch
Sprint
Frenzy
Desecrate Enchantments // Weaken Armor (keep in mind weaken armor will greatly increase your dps but takes a while to cast. If your team needs enchantment removal or your job is to kill monks and such, bring desecrate enchantments. It can be really devastating if timed correctly.)

I've done this build in the arenas and it works very well. I haven't taken it to the tombs yet since I wouldn't play any warrior but a W/E knockdown/aftershock there, but it seems like it would do its job very well.

Azzith · Jul 22, 2005, 05:52 PM // 17:52

my tombs axe warrior is :

R/W
12 axe mastery
12 beast mastery (8 with sup rune and tamers mask)
12 expertise (10 with major rune)

skills:
tigers fury; cyclone axe; swift chop; dismember; res signet; fertile season; edge of extinction; escape (elite)

works very well in tombs, especially in smiting groups. A zealous axe is helpful. the Fertile is there for against "spike" teams, the edge for placing after capturing altar (frequently kills everyone in chain reaction, so we win

) and Escape for relic runs. Made this build very recently, but im loving it already!

Tigris Of Gaul · Jul 22, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowfox1125

While y'all duke it out..

IMO Disrupting Chop & Dismember should be in any Axe Warrior build.

Eviscerate is Executioner's + Dismember, so why not take it and Executioner's?

Alright, time to analyze this. The first warrior will use Battle Rage for a stance, and Penetrating Blow, Dismember, and Executioner's Strike. The second warrior will use Frenzy, Penetrating Blow, Eviscerate, and Executioner's Strike. 4 skills each, and we won't take into account the AP of Strength. Each warrior has charged up those three damage skills, and are in the first seconds of their stances. 60 AL target, 500 life. All hits are just max damage, for the sake of making it short.

Warrior 1, three swings = 4 seconds
Dismember (100 + 28) + Penetrating Blow (47) + Executioner's Strike (70)
Warrior 2, three swings = 2.7 seconds
Eviscerate (100 + 60) + Penetrating Blow (47) + Executioner's Strike (70)

Warrior 1 does 245 damage, for 61.25 DPS. Warrior 2 does 277 damage, for 103.9 DPS. Each one would do a lot more, because I didn't calculate how much % dmg having 16 in Axe or the Strength AP would add to each attack.

Think of it this way. What's better at spiking, an Air Elementalist that can send out huge bursts of damage, or someone spamming Ice Spear continuously?

derrtyboy69 · Aug 02, 2005, 06:58 AM // 06:58

updated build, added a few more thx for everyones help

Enigmatics · Aug 02, 2005, 12:51 PM // 12:51

It's not DPS unless you're actually doing the damage consistantly per second. Waiting until the last moment to unleash a large spike and acting like that damage was spread out over your last few seconds of idleness doesn't count.

Tigris Of Gaul · Aug 02, 2005, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigmatics

It's not DPS unless you're actually doing the damage consistantly per second. Waiting until the last moment to unleash a large spike and acting like that damage was spread out over your last few seconds of idleness doesn't count.

Who's acting like it was spread out? I'm acting like it was a spike...

sgtclarity · Aug 02, 2005, 02:18 PM // 14:18

I still don't understand how you axe wars are choosing battle rage over EVISCERATE

UberRusty · Aug 09, 2005, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Because little Evvy isn't as good as an elite as Battle Rage in their, and mine's mind?

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 09, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Eviscerate needs 7 adrenaline to cause a combo of executioner's strike and dismember. Easily countered by condition removal and a single heal.

Battle Rage, outside wild blow, how do you counter that? Dump conditions on the warrior? The monk heals them too...

Enigmatics · Aug 09, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Using Battle Rage effectively makes for spamming high-adrenal attack skills; you'll do more damage using it with Dismember then spamming Executioner's Strike and Penetrating blow, than you would with simply Eviscerate.

derrtyboy69 · Aug 22, 2005, 06:44 AM // 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Eviscerate needs 7 adrenaline to cause a combo of executioner's strike and dismember. Easily countered by condition removal and a single heal.

Battle Rage, outside wild blow, how do you counter that? Dump conditions on the warrior? The monk heals them too...

haha even better i use plague touch in random arenas, i love when a warrior throws on bleeding and deep wound, a ranger poisons me, a necro diseases me, and then i spam plague touch on the monk im chasing. then i turn on battle rage and beat him down.

neoflame · Aug 22, 2005, 02:35 PM // 14:35

On Battle Rage: You lose Frenzy. :/

Yukito Kunisaki · Aug 22, 2005, 06:04 PM // 18:04

On Frenzy, you lose hp 2x as fast and you can't catch runners AND it takes longer to build adrenaline. 3 losses for one fast burst in dmg?

In some situations, YES it's needed! [when the foe's hp is wavering and you need to put them out FAST]

However, for that consistent +34 dmg Exe. Strike that comes out 2x as fast and the consistently spammable Swift Chop with Disrupting Chop makes for quite a nasty setup.

Swift Chop, Penetrating Blow, Executioner's Strike, Disrupting Chop, Battle Rage {E}

That's usually a strong setup for an axe user to just let loose with CONSTANT special axe swings vs. one sudden adrenal explosion. It's also safe as you don't have half hp, you can't escape one using this setup [unless u hex/cripple], AND, it's near infinite since BR can be recast before it runs out...

ICURADik · Aug 22, 2005, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Eviscerate can hit for 200+. Not bringing it as an axe elite is stupid.

rii · Aug 22, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

meh. if i use warriors, i usually go 3 monks 3 warriors two mesmers. call me old fashioned. 3 warriors with 50-60dps sustained (from rage) is more or less the same result as 3 evis spikers. its just a different tactic. if i have three guys with 55 dps hitting one target then they will be taking *shock* 165dps. since its sustained, and i have two mesmers on the off monks, they go down, albeit a little bit of resistance from them. whatsmore, i can instantly go onto the next target without having to wait for charge times. a 3 monk team will go down to rage users, and in fact it may be slightly faster than evis. maybe not. whatever. they are two seperate tactics. personally................... i dont care which you use.