Curse

CAT · Aug 27, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Ive seen the build before, its a Me/N that spikes using fragility, virulence, phantom pain, and a couple other condition skills. I'm exploring of the hexes now that natures is gone, so if anyone can post the skill build it it would be appreciated because I remember that build owning my monk.

Darc.Syde · Aug 27, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

the main skills are fragility, phantom pain, shatter delusions, and virulence. anything after is up to you. what i found was, the build is energy intensive, and spells like troll, healing breeze, basic regeneration stops a significant amount of dot dmg. i would suggest stuff like inspired enchantment, drain enchantment, leech signet.

Iron Rhino · Aug 27, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33

I'll just hit the core of a Frag/Vir build.

Illusion 16 (12 + 3 Sup rune + 1 Hat)
Death Magic 0 (Maybe 1 or two, but 0 is better)

Skills....and order of cast

Fragility
Phantom Pain
Shatter Delusions
Virulence {E}

That is the core of the build. They can vary a lot from there. I would suggest adding Illusion of Weakness, Hex Breaker, and Res Signet. The 8th skill is up to you.

This build is good in random arena, but gets stopped pretty easily in anything organized. Lots of ways to stop it.

Hope that helps

arredondo · Aug 27, 2005, 09:40 PM // 21:40

If you bring in energy sets of 55E/69E (focus switching), you will have at least half of your energy remaining after one cast series (net -28 or so). Energy isn't an issue. As for simple healing as a defense, that's not enough in many cases because Fragility+Virulence isn't degening as much as it is spiking. It may save them from death, but they'll have about 10% health left. This can be removed as an issue if you bring in Archane Ech o for two Virulence casts. That definitely creates energy concern, but death is all but certain. Most times, you'll find that you can kill most opponents without it. Read here for more details.

CAT · Aug 27, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Thanks, i appreciate it alot, that was exactly what i was looking for

Pippy Bloodstocking · Aug 27, 2005, 11:35 PM // 23:35

I find that even using only fragility, phantom pain and shatter delusions works pretty well in lower level ascalon/yak's bend pve, and in the ascalon arena. It's not so great after that, though, as you really need more conditions. Adding Enfeebling Blood would work pretty well, I think. Too bad it's not possible to have an AoE Fragility, or a way to copy that hex from one monster to another.

Also, using Conjure Phantasm after you Shatter Phantom Pain makes it much more painful, in that the health degen has less total health to work with.

Legendary Battousai · Aug 28, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Arcane echo, is a good friend of mine.

Arcane Echo > Fragility > Fragility [on other foe], phantom pain, virulence, epidemic. 2 people die.

or

Fragility > Phantom Pain > Arcane Echo > Virulence > Virulence [double spike incase they were healed.

Iron Rhino · Aug 28, 2005, 01:09 AM // 01:09

I won't disagree that a Frag build can do good damage, but I just don't care for them. I played on for a while and they are awesome in random PvP. However, they just don't work as well in organized PvP. Just too many ways to stop them and I don't like one trick builds. Flexibility IMHO is important.

As a protection monk, I like seeing a Frag build on the other team. Let him do his thing while I heal for insane amounts with Mend Ailment. When he is done with his chain, Energy Drain him. I now know I have a while before I need to worry about that enemy again. An Energy Drain Mes on the other hand..................I hate em.

Just my .02

arredondo · Aug 28, 2005, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Mesmers are the worst enemies of any Frag build. But you can apply the right defenses to any build and call it a day for awhile. You can Power Block Air Eles, or come in with Frost mantras and winter suits as Rangers (under Win+GC spirits). You can use Diversion on any fast spamming offensive build, Sympathetic Visage stops nearly any Hammer or Axe Warrior build, even before adding other anti-Warrior hexes and Conditions... etc. There's an answer to everything, and that's not alone a reason not to use any build that works. You may stop it with ease (I always build with defenses for it in mind) but many people do not.

In an organized team setting, both sides can adjust. There can possibly be a person with Diversion or Shame/Mark of Subversion ready to try and stop a Monk's anti-Condition attempt during the three vulnerable seconds. It may not always work, but at least its an option to try if its regularly stopped. I haven't seen it regularly stopped yet to feel the need to test the timing however.

Vwoss · Aug 28, 2005, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Rhino

I won't disagree that a Frag build can do good damage, but I just don't care for them. I played on for a while and they are awesome in random PvP. However, they just don't work as well in organized PvP. Just too many ways to stop them and I don't like one trick builds. Flexibility IMHO is important.

As a protection monk, I like seeing a Frag build on the other team. Let him do his thing while I heal for insane amounts with Mend Ailment. When he is done with his chain, Energy Drain him. I now know I have a while before I need to worry about that enemy again. An Energy Drain Mes on the other hand..................I hate em.

Just my .02

This is why we don't target you.

The strategy to a good frag mesmer is knowing your targets. The best targets are usually warriors (mostly ignored by monks) and stray 'squishies'. I have found that frag mesmers work best as a kind of sniper. Since most targets are only unprotected for a few seconds, a frag mesmer is the perfect build for taking advantage of this and quickly picking off the target. Shutdown and evergy denial mesmers are more suited for taking monks down.

smurfhunter · Aug 28, 2005, 07:04 AM // 07:04

another good part of a frag is a snare, alot of people run when they see it.

ive seen a hilarious mesmer get me to follow him slightly away from the main group and snare me/frag me while i limped around.

imagined burden is what i mean btw

Iron Rhino · Aug 28, 2005, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Mesmers are the worst enemies of any Frag build. But you can apply the right defenses to any build and call it a day for awhile. You can Power Block Air Eles, or come in with Frost mantras and winter suits as Rangers (under Win+GC spirits). You can use Diversion on any fast spamming offensive build, Sympathetic Visage stops nearly any Hammer or Axe Warrior build, even before adding other anti-Warrior hexes and Conditions... etc. There's an answer to everything, and that's not alone a reason not to use any build that works. You may stop it with ease (I always build with defenses for it in mind) but many people do not.

In an organized team setting, both sides can adjust. There can possibly be a person with Diversion or Shame/Mark of Subversion ready to try and stop a Monk's anti-Condition attempt during the three vulnerable seconds. It may not always work, but at least its an option to try if its regularly stopped. I haven't seen it regularly stopped yet to feel the need to test the timing however.

Yes any build can be stopped. but Frag has too many ways to stop it. Stop the initial Frag Cast or remove it. Stop his casts required to get initial condition or remove condition quickly. Heal with almost any of the "big" heals. Heal with Mend Condition for insane amounts (This is the one that gets me the most since almost every Prot monk carries this). There are more, but you get the idea. These are things most teams carry w/o even building to defeat frag.

Just my opinion, but I am just not a fan of Frag builds.

Morganas · Aug 28, 2005, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Once got hit with frag, hit the mes/nec with my AE'd energy drain and left the poor guy standing there with nothing to do. Was able to resume babysitting the enemy monk in peace.

A simple diversion would have thrown him off for the rest of the short fight, but frag mesmers aren't worth spending the 10 energy on.

arredondo · Aug 28, 2005, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Rhino

Yes any build can be stopped. but Frag has too many ways to stop it. Stop the initial Frag Cast or remove it. Stop his casts required to get initial condition or remove condition quickly. Heal with almost any of the "big" heals. Heal with Mend Condition for insane amounts (This is the one that gets me the most since almost every Prot monk carries this). There are more, but you get the idea. These are things most teams carry w/o even building to defeat frag.

Just my opinion, but I am just not a fan of Frag builds.

Too many ways, eh? Forum theory is misinforming the masses again. Let's look at your "ways"...

"Stop the initial Frag" - Good luck amigo. Not only is spell interruption not a specialty of all classes or builds, you have only .7 seconds to interrupt Fragility coming from any decent Mesmer with average Fast Cast points. Try again.

"...or remove it" - So far, I've seen maybe ONE person remove my Fragility after hundreds and hundreds of casts. Why? Because most Hex removals are two seconds. By the time most players see the Fragility set on their status bar, I'm already applying Phantom Pain, which takes about 1.4 seconds to cast. Technically its possible to squeeze a removal in time due to aftercast, but it is highly unlikely. Your reward for being late? Thanks for removing Phantom Pain for me - eat 100 points of Deep Wound damage and I'll be sure to apply Virulence a mere .7 seconds later as a thank you note.

"Heal with almost any big heals" - Which I've said all along. Which also negates the spike damage of ANY other setup in the game, so why single this one out as "easy" to stop? They all are "easy to stop" if you have to run to your monk to save you.

"Mend Ailment" - Here at least is a decent answer. In an organized team format, the side with Fragility can target the Mo who may have this and coordinate Shame + Diversion casts while the teammate attempts a Fragility kill. It may work, it may not. It's all part of Guild Wars.

As a matter of fact, perhaps I'll take out Shatter Delusions and run with Shame instead if Mend Ailment ever becomes a major, noticible concern in the future. Hmmmm - I'd lose 63 damage or so, but while PP is degening for 10 seconds, I have plenty of time to cast Shame as insurance on any Monk nearby just as the Deep Wound is about to form naturally. Not a guaranteed solution, but it has some merit. Switch back to the main victim, cast Virulence and life is good once again. I need to test this.

Also, to others who want better info than what was offered, you can try an interrupt, but DON'T go for Fragility or Virulence! They are too fast to stop for most people so target the Condition spell instead if possible. If another foe puts the Condition on you (i.e. a Warrior bleeds you), your chances of surviving are much slimmer without a Monk supporting you.

Hex Breaker is still the best thing you can do to protect yourself. Just be aware that a good Frag user will simply kill your teammate if you have HB, and then his entire team will deal with you later when they have numbers. Kill him as one of your top priorities because you do not want him reloading or taking out someone unprotected.

For Frag users, the cool thing about this skill is that there is not only one way to use it. I have all kinds of versions as do others that can get the job done in various ways. Keep the opponent on his toes by mixing it up a bit and you'll stay one step ahead of the game. For now though, consider the main build as free faction farming because most enemies you face will die fast and easy.

Rajamic · Aug 28, 2005, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

For Frag users, the cool thing about this skill is that there is not only one way to use it. I have all kinds of versions as do others that can get the job done in various ways. Keep the opponent on his toes by mixing it up a bit and you'll stay one step ahead of the game.

Even just varying the timing of Shatter Delusions, or deciding to just not use it and wait it out, makes the Necro Fragility build extremely powerful. In most of my experience (on the monk side of things only), the best way to beat it the way many are playing it right now is to go ahead and take the Virulence, then remove Fragility before the second spike comes. I've yet to see someone actually plan for that tactic with a cover on Fragility after Phantom Pain ends. You'd have to either put the cover on before Phantom, which gives the monk more time to think clearly about his options, or right after Virulence, which still leaves a small window and would end up being futile if they use Convert Hexes.

You still have some damage to heal. And if the target is getting focused on, one monk working the healing and hex/condition jobs alone (like in 4v4) won't cut it.

The Elem Fragility build is garbage, but the Ranger and Necro ones are forces to be reckoned with for different reasons.

Iron Rhino · Aug 28, 2005, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Too many ways, eh? Forum theory is misinforming the masses again. Let's look at your "ways"...

"Stop the initial Frag" - Good luck amigo. Not only is spell interruption not a specialty of all classes or builds, you have only .7 seconds to interrupt Fragility coming from any decent Mesmer with average Fast Cast points. Try again.

"...or remove it" - So far, I've seen maybe ONE person remove my Fragility after hundreds and hundreds of casts. Why? Because most Hex removals are two seconds. By the time most players see the Fragility set on their status bar, I'm already applying Phantom Pain, which takes about 1.4 seconds to cast. Technically its possible to squeeze a removal in time due to aftercast, but it is highly unlikely. Your reward for being late? Thanks for removing Phantom Pain for me - eat 100 points of Deep Wound damage and I'll be sure to apply Virulence a mere .7 seconds later as a thank you note.

"Heal with almost any big heals" - Which I've said all along. Which also negates the spike damage of ANY other setup in the game, so why single this one out as "easy" to stop? They all are "easy to stop" if you have to run to your monk to save you.

"Mend Ailment" - Here at least is a decent answer. In an organized team format, the side with Fragility can target the Mo who may have this and coordinate Shame + Diversion casts while the teammate attempts a Fragility kill. It may work, it may not. It's all part of Guild Wars.

As a matter of fact, perhaps I'll take out Shatter Delusions and run with Shame instead if Mend Ailment ever becomes a major, noticible concern in the future. Hmmmm - I'd lose 63 damage or so, but while PP is degening for 10 seconds, I have plenty of time to cast Shame as insurance on any Monk nearby just as the Deep Wound is about to form naturally. Not a guaranteed solution, but it has some merit. Switch back to the main victim, cast Virulence and life is good once again. I need to test this.

Also, to others who want better info than what was offered, you can try an interrupt, but DON'T go for Fragility or Virulence! They are too fast to stop for most people so target the Condition spell instead if possible. If another foe puts the Condition on you (i.e. a Warrior bleeds you), your chances of surviving are much slimmer without a Monk supporting you.

Hex Breaker is still the best thing you can do to protect yourself. Just be aware that a good Frag user will simply kill your teammate if you have HB, and then his entire team will deal with you later when they have numbers. Kill him as one of your top priorities because you do not want him reloading or taking out someone unprotected.

For Frag users, the cool thing about this skill is that there is not only one way to use it. I have all kinds of versions as do others that can get the job done in various ways. Keep the opponent on his toes by mixing it up a bit and you'll stay one step ahead of the game. For now though, consider the main build as free faction farming because most enemies you face will die fast and easy.

OK one finial response and then we will prob just have to agree to disagree.

"Stop Frag" - IT can be stopped by the person having Hex Breaker or interrupt. Yes Frag is low cast time, but most Frag Mesmers do not have high Fast Cast so you have the full cast time. This should allow an interrupt char to get the spell. I play an interrupt and get Frag all the time. Simply target the Me/N and wait for him to cast.

"Or Remove it" - Yep I agree that it takes timing to remove the Frag, but it certainly can be done. Personally, I often use Contemplation of Purity to get rid of it from myself.

"Heal with big Heals" - OK here is the difference. An Air spiker with attunement can cast big damage spell after big damage spell and wear down a healer's energy. You also better have Prot Spirit up or the huge damage will beat the recharge times of your heals. Fragility can be stopped with a couple quick big heals, and then you have a chance to recover. Huge difference in those two situations. Please note I am discussing character not team builds.

I have played Frag builds and against Frag builds. They are easy to stop. I have also played Energy Denial and other Mes builds. The strength of something like an Energy Denial build is even if I see it coming it is still very hard to stop.

If you like Frag, that's cool. I just don't care for them.

Edit - I just wanted to be clear that I am not saying Frag is a total crap build or anything similar. It is just not as good as some other options IMHO. If you have fun with it and it works well for you, great.

Vwoss · Aug 28, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Rhino

"Stop Frag" - IT can be stopped by the person having Hex Breaker or interrupt. Yes Frag is low cast time, but most Frag Mesmers do not have high Fast Cast so you have the full cast time. This should allow an interrupt char to get the spell. I play an interrupt and get Frag all the time. Simply target the Me/N and wait for him to cast.

In the case of hexbreaker, I just wait and cast again or just pull off the PP>SD combo by itself, which will do substantial damage anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Rhino

"Or Remove it" - Yep I agree that it takes timing to remove the Frag, but it certainly can be done. Personally, I often use Contemplation of Purity to get rid of it from myself.

It's true, the only monks that annoy me are the ones that constantly try to protect themselves from the frag combo, but if they're focusing on saving themselves from me, then they're not healing their allies. Distractions are still good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Rhino

"Heal with big Heals" - OK here is the difference. An Air spiker with attunement can cast big damage spell after big damage spell and wear down a healer's energy. You also better have Prot Spirit up or the huge damage will beat the recharge times of your heals. Fragility can be stopped with a couple quick big heals, and then you have a chance to recover. Huge difference in those two situations. Please note I am discussing character not team builds.

Single Air elementalists are usually a waste though. Frag mesmers are more effective at 1 per target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Rhino

I have played Frag builds and against Frag builds. They are easy to stop. I have also played Energy Denial and other Mes builds. The strength of something like an Energy Denial build is even if I see it coming it is still very hard to stop.

If you like Frag, that's cool. I just don't care for them.

Edit - I just wanted to be clear that I am not saying Frag is a total crap build or anything similar. It is just not as good as some other options IMHO. If you have fun with it and it works well for you, great.

Hmmm. Perhaps I am just very good with the frag build, because in most cases I can break right through most players. I keep getting complements too about how well I play the build from opponents.

Iron Rhino · Aug 28, 2005, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vwoss

It's true, the only monks that annoy me are the ones that constantly try to protect themselves from the frag combo, but if they're focusing on saving themselves from me, then they're not healing their allies. Distractions are still good.

Actually it is very easy for me to protect myself and get anyone on my team too. Mend Ailment heals for insane amounts on a Frag victim.

Perhaps my opinion of Frag builds is jaded since I play a Boon Prot Monk in PvP. I carry Contemplation of Purity and Mend Ailment and have high Prot/Favor attributes. As I play exactly what Frag builds hate to see, I may not fully realize the damage inflicted when a good prot monk counter is not around.

I would like to take a second to say thanks to evryone involved in the thread so far. So often these dicussons degrade into flames. So nice when they stay mature.

Ender Ward · Aug 28, 2005, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Shielding Hands + Mend Ailment > Fragility/Virulence builds.

Which is why that build only works in random/team arena, where most Monks' reflexes ... how should I put it ... suck.

arredondo · Aug 28, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Shatter Enchantment + Shame > Shielding hands + Mend Ailment. If one side is coordinated on stopping damage, the other side has to come prepared to deal with breaking their defenses. The cycle doesn't stop with a Monk's intervention. Each side makes contingency plans or a coordinated team from either side will be wasting its time.