Curse

Morty · Nov 23, 2005, 04:55 PM // 16:55

It's definately a change. I'm certain that it wasn't like that when I started playing (in the beta).

Shwitz · Nov 23, 2005, 05:02 PM // 17:02

I might get flamed for this, but Melandru's Arrows {E} is the best of both worlds when it comes to degen and damage. When messing around in the Comp. Arenas, lots of targets are enchanted (boon monks, mending wars, attunements on ele's, necro's using Awaken or Blood Renewal, etc...). With that in mind, Mel's Arrows do more damage than Kindle, add 3 degen from bleeding (which is less noticeable than poison since the health bars don't turn eye-catching green), and only cost 5 to prep. I've been using this build in the Comp. Arenas for a bit now, and to great effect:

R/Mo
14 Expertise
12 Marksmanship
11 Wilderness Survival

1. Melandru's Arrows {E}
2. Lightning Reflexes
3. Dual Shot
4. Distracting Shot
5. Penetrating Attack
6. Pin Down
7. Throw Dirt
8. Res Sig

Poison Arrow gives you one more pip of health degen on your target, but Mel's Arrows has the opportunity to do a nice amount of damage in addition to applying degen. That, and bleeding is much easier to ignore or overlook. Just a thought...

EDIT: If you don't mind using a Warrior secondary, you could use Frenzy as your stance instead of Reflexes. I prefer Reflexes for the evasion and the lack of double damage. If you played with the attributes a little, you might be able to find a sweet spot for using Tiger's Fury too.

jesh · Nov 23, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morty

It's definately a change. I'm certain that it wasn't like that when I started playing (in the beta).

I've been playing since the feb betas, and while I didn't start a ranger until the last beta event, I can tell you it's been like this for a long time. The key word is "skill", expertise never affected spells. Vampiric Touch, Contemplation of Purity, Dust Trap, Savage Slash, any stance including mantras.. just some examples of *skills*, and they will be affected by expertise.

As for Melandru's Arrows, it's definitely a great elite, but I've never had a chance to play with it. No one will flame you for using a good elite. Unlike poison arrow. *cough*

Shwitz · Nov 23, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

As for Melandru's Arrows, it's definitely a great elite, but I've never had a chance to play with it. No one will flame you for using a good elite. Unlike poison arrow. *cough*

You'd be surprised how many people out there have a strong dislike of Melandru's Arrows. Whenever I'm in the arenas, at least one person sees me prep'ing Mel's Arrows and stops to tell me what a n00b I am. Having played a ranger for most of my GW experience, I wouldn't exactly call myself a newbie by any means... but everyone seems to think they know better, and that Mel's Arrows are either a) misused by me in some way; b) a crappy elite that is overshadowed by all the other ranger elites; or c) too situational (referring to the enchantment stipulation of the bonus damage). In PvP, I happen to think its one of the finest elites out there, and unless you're trying to stack poison on top of bleeding from Hunter's Shot or another character's skills (like a sword warrior's Sever Artery), its at least as effective if not more effective than Poison Arrow or Apply Poison alone. In PvE, its a different story, as there are a bunch of non-fleshy mobs that aren't affected by bleeding OR poison, and they're not always enchanted, making many other ranger elites preferable in many PvE areas. Anyway, I think I've talked that out of my system.
*Gets off of soapbox*
Poison Arrow is good in PvP only when the opposing team is unprepared to deal with conditions or when you have some way to shut down their condition control. If you are able to disable their prot monk somehow (or whoever is Martyr'ing or mending conditions), then you can proceed to poison everyone in sight with reckless abandon. 4 pips of health degen on multiple people adds up. You have to make sure to take out that condition control though, otherwise Poison Arrow is only a nuisance.

EDIT: I must have said "in some way" at least 4 times in that post. I need to proof-read and vary my vocabulary... edited a few out so that I don't sound like a total goof.

jesh · Nov 23, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I still wouldn't take it.. at level 20, 8 dps is healable through.. anything. Makes me wonder if an ele could heal through it with Aura of Restoration.

I can see taking it to the ascalon arenas, where people don't know their left hand from their right, and have less than 200 hp. But anywhere else, and I start to wonder why that skill is still on the bar.

rii · Nov 23, 2005, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Stop talking about 8dps...of course thats bs. The whole point is its on their whole team. Not 8dps.... try 64dps (a low grade warrior additons to dps).... and whatsmore, you should be at least getting bleed on there as well..... and disease isnt exactly hard to spread is it? Conditions teams should be looking at maintaining around 160dps across the enemy team, and then setting up a reasonable-ly/half-baked dps from their bows, preps, orders, whatever.

Isolating conditions on their own is asking to get owned... if you want degen you aim for max degen... if you want damage aim for max damage.... I dont know what the op is trying to do (i cant be bothered to go back and look) but frankly if im running conditions id rather stack them and have them martyr botting (whilst being humilified) and mending like hell, then throw some debils their way and spike them.... then see what they do. If you layer some nice deep wounds in there, then find the guy with martyr and start hitting him with some nice al ignoring spike your already half shutting out the guy delivering a martyr or he gets it in the face -.-

sun is in us · Nov 23, 2005, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Well since I run a R/N (one of the few non-touch) I use apply poison to cover Life Transfer actually. The -10 regen for 11-12 seconds tends to be surprisingly effective. And since this thread seems to assume there is a monk in every encounter I guess you are discounting RA. In tombs, Teams, and GVG I understand poison in any form doesn't look so hot.

But I can't even count how many people it has finished off in RA for me though...

White Designs · Nov 23, 2005, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun is in us

Well since I run a R/N (one of the few non-touch) I use apply poison to cover Life Transfer actually. The -10 regen for 11-12 seconds tends to be surprisingly effective. And since this thread seems to assume there is a monk in every encounter I guess you are discounting RA. In tombs, Teams, and GVG I understand poison in any form doesn't look so hot.

But I can't even count how many people it has finished off in RA for me though...

Please show me how you use a condition to cover a hex.

Ensign · Nov 23, 2005, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Stop talking about 8dps...of course thats bs. The whole point is its on their whole team. Not 8dps.... try 64dps

If you're keeping it on their whole team then Apply Poison is better. If you're not trying to keep it on their whole team and just 1-2 guys, then Poison Arrow is strong...but 8 DPS.

That's the argument in a nutshell.

Peace,
-CxE

jesh · Nov 23, 2005, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Apply poison can be used on the whole team, poison arrow, I think not. As for stacking conditions, I don't see any other conditions that he's using either.
Meh Ensign beat me to it.

Hell Marauder · Nov 23, 2005, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Poison arrow does have one advantage over apply poison, in that you can choose which target to poison and which not to. There are times you don't want to poison the whole team. Obviously a necro is someone you don't want to poison, but if you use apply poison, you either have to avoid hitting that necro for entire 24 sec prep duration or risk getting your own teamates poisoned along with that necro.

entropy · Nov 23, 2005, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Marauder

Poison arrow does have one advantage over apply poison, in that you can choose which target to poison and which not to. There are times you don't want to poison the whole team. Obviously a necro is someone you don't want to poison, but if you use apply poison, you either have to avoid hitting that necro for entire 24 sec prep duration or risk getting your own teamates poisoned along with that necro.

so what if your teamates get poisoned let him waste 5 energy and you keep on hitting him with apply poison. And that one advanatage is well pretty crappy. If you want to degen a whole team get a necro and have him spam tainted on everyone. Tainted+rotting flesh in tombs is great if you can keep it up.

Hell Marauder · Nov 24, 2005, 03:04 PM // 15:04

I bet someone might have said it but it's worth mentioning again. Poison arrow is an elite not simply because it causes poison, but because you can use it while another prep is on. I personally like Read To Wind as a prep with poison arrow onboard. Disease is better at mass degen. Prep like apply poison should be compared to another prep, like RTW or Kindle Arrow or elite Melandru's arrow. Poison arrow is on its own, and you can use it while another prep like RTW or kindle is on. Best yet, it doesn't cause your team's monks unnessary grief. Apply Poison has bad side effect when you run into a team with heavy necro secondary, and necro is quite popular as secondary. So carry Apply Poison on board for nice degen, but first consult with your team's doctors first and don't go crazy with it.

Morty · Nov 24, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

As far as I'm concerned, for many ranger builds, the preparation is just as important as the elite. And you can only use one at a time, so they are sort of like elites in that respect. In this build, I think it's more important to have the right prep than it is to have the right elite. The elite is more a compliment to the prep than the other way around.

JR · Nov 24, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Wow, your totally wrong.

The elite is elite for a REASON, it is generally the key skill your character build is based around, and the most important one to get right.

It really is this simple:

Both spread poison.
Both take one skill slot.
One is elite, one isn't.

A bit of a no-brainer really.

rii · Nov 24, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Dont try and base it on some weird theory theory. If you want to spread poison to the majority of the other team, apply poison is the best thingy in terms of efficiency, utility, etc. If you want damage as well... may i suggest power shot.

JR · Nov 24, 2005, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Dont try and base it on some weird theory theory. If you want to spread poison to the majority of the other team, apply poison is the best thingy in terms of efficiency, utility, etc. If you want damage as well... may i suggest power shot.

A. I was agreeing with apply poison being better.

B) Power Shot LOL wtf bye.

entropy · Nov 24, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

this isn't about power shot...

VGJustice · Nov 24, 2005, 09:42 PM // 21:42

A) I don't think rii was talking to you, JR-

B) Agree'd

sun is in us · Nov 25, 2005, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

Please show me how you use a condition to cover a hex.

I want the monk to see on first glance one or the other so reflexively the will remove the condition first etc......not a traditional "cover" as the thread was contextual (bleeding can take moment to be seen on the bar for a monk etc).

So you noticed I never said "Covering Hex" anywhere in my previous post....you assumed that. Hope now it is more clear. Not much time, but just adds another step etc.

So I find some monks will take off the poison then turn away....taking an extra moment or two to understand that the degen is actually coming from the hex and not the poison....buying me some more time for LT to take a bit out of them. Not much, and not with a good monk etc....but it does help.