Curse

ron_8 · Jun 01, 2005, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Hi guys, im new here in the forums and im also new to guildwars, im currently lvl 13 and my first character is a mesmer/ranger,

First, id like to know if mesmer/rangers suk? seems like people dont choose ranger as a good 2nd profession for mesmers, i browse the forums but there are rarely even stuff concerning Mesmers/rangers. Did i make a bad choice?

i am currently at yak's bend, i have a variety of spells currently but i usually play PvE and sometimes i go to random pvps which i usually get owned but warriors who do severe artery, gash, hamstring me so 65% of the time im dead. for monsters im pretty decent but not really satisfied. my attributes currently are:

fast casting: 4
Domination magic: 9+1
Illution magic: 6
inspire magic: 3
and
Beast mastery: 1 <- just temporary to not waste some points before i lvl up again

i use a cane which gives 9-18 damage, a jeweled chalice with +8 energy, and a full rogue suit (the one that gives 30 armor and some 10 armor for physical but -1 energy).

Skills im using now are (note that i have different spells this is just what i use for now):

1. energy burn
2. conjure phantasm
3. ether feast
4. backfire
5. chaos storm
6. shatter dellusions
7. resu signet
8. charm animal <- to keep my pet

anyone who can help me here and who can answer my questions:
1. how can i make my mesmer/ranger be effective for both pvp and pve, i am really troubled that im desperate in getting some advice, as a Me/R what direction do i need to go regarding roles in pvp and pve, how can i make the most of Me/R, if u are a Me/R how can u tweak my build? i am sorry im such a noob but i dunno where to go from here or the direction im going to take.

2. are Me/R good? why are there enough Me/R around? does it suk that bad?

3. is there anyone who can help me? thanks in advance for the people who will reply.

JYX · Jun 01, 2005, 09:11 AM // 09:11

ok, I'm a me/w...which is...close enough I guess >.>

how can i make my mesmer/ranger be effective for both pvp and pve
How can you make your mesmer/ranger effective for both PvP and PvE? Erm. I don't know. As a rule mesmers are POOR in PvE. The easiest way I can think of is to make a ranger build get a few shots. Pets are a bit annoying in PvE...sometimes they run off on their own or trail at the back of the group and pull mobs you don't really want. If you're intent on using Illusion in your PvP setup then thats quite easy, just get Illusionary Weaponry and Tiger's Fury for PvE.

are Me/R good? why are there enough Me/R around? does it suk that bad?
First it really depends on what you want to do exactly. This is why I feel there aren't too many Me/R around. Right now you have basically a complete mesmer with a pet thrown in just for fun. Let me get this absolutely clear. Pets...they're poo. That eliminates any need for there to be a ranger secondary solely on the basis that you want a pet. You need quite a few pet skills to make the thing good, as a mesmer shutdown/interrupter you should be spamming out as many shutdowns or carrying around a lot of interrupts to make up for the cooldown. Think about it, an empathy will close off a warrior, a backfire will shut down the ele, a blackout will completely destroy a monk. Then theres interrupts like Power Leak, Power Drain etc. These have long recharge times so you want a few around with you.

Things might not work out exactly like that, but you can see now that Mesmer skills are very efficient, since there aren't many mesmers on the normal team (1-2 max) you need to be lugging around quite a few. So skills for your pet and skills for your interrupts/shutdowns are in conflict here. Mesmers are essential for any team, pets...are not.

Now, the thing with ranger is that their shots' "casting time" if you can call it that is not helped by Fast Casting, whereas Expertise will help. So if you want to use ranger shots then you're better off using a ranger. Also ranger builds tend to take up about 6-7 of your 8 slots, in a R/Me probably about 5 depending on what kind of build (interrupter? fragility? they're very different). This means that the energy drain from using many mesmer skills isn't much of an issue, and that expertise will help much more than Fast Casting.

is there anyone who can help me?
Erm. Could do. But I think you can help yourself more by figuring out what you want. Right now you have an awful lot of damage skills, skills that as a mesmer I find hard to understand. Let me tell you right now that a pure ranger will do more damage than energy burn, conjure phantasm, and chaos storm can give you. Efficiency is the key here. Yes you can do some damage as mesmer (try wastrel's worry/shatter delusions) but are you as efficient in doing it as a ranger? In most cases...No you're not. So why should they pick you over a warrior or a ranger? or an elementalist nuker? Can an elementalist shut down or disrupt like a mesmer?...again in most cases no. Therefore in PvP I want you for your disruption/shutdowns, I can get damage elsewhere.

It looks like you play quite a lot of Arena. Also you carry around a res signet. As such it would appear that monk would be a profession that you can find useful. You still have a chance to change your secondary profession in the Crystal Desert, although you cannot change your primary profession. Theres a few courses I can think of for your mesmer:

1) change to warrior secondary and be an illusionary weaponeer.
2) change to elementalist secondary and be a high damage fragility mesmer.
3) change to monk secondary and be a shutdown mesmer.
4) make a pure mesmer build with 7 skills and a res sig. This is not uncommon. A pure mesmer like this can shutdown and interrupt and burn energy on the side. You're going to be operating on domination and inspiration. Energy Drain is your friend.
5) Join a guild, start a new character who specialises in dealing damage and get them to power level you to ascension.
6) None of the above. Perhaps I'm majorly mistaken. There could be a very narrow use for the me/r that I haven't noticed...and you know, those are some of the best.

rii · Jun 01, 2005, 11:47 AM // 11:47

One suggestion i could make is to get wilderness survival, and get serpents quickness. This combined with fast casting should have you banging out spells at a really fast rate.
You cant go wrong with troll unguent and storm chaser, and the nature rituals might give you a bit of a boost as well. Be the subject of much hate from friend and foe alike with natures renewal, its aoe help with your mesmer interrupts, you can then focus on other mesmers and necros, whoes offense is largly hex based.
Or what you can do, is go all mesmer. It kicks ass, and the ranger survival will give you a bit of toughness i lack when going mesmer solo in the arena.

Tindalos · Jun 01, 2005, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Hello ron_8!

I've been lurking around the forum for a while and I play a Mesmer/Ranger that is currently level 18. I've not PVP'd beyond the acadamy so I cannot give you specific advice for that but philosophically I think I can help you out a bit.

I find that the mesmer/ranger is extremely versatile by having a large pool of abilities to draw from, many of which overlap, but others are unique enough that you can design an interesting build.

First of all, I agree with the poster above the pet is essentially a waste. With the res signet and pet that is 25% of your bar that is pretty unused. When I work with my build after PVE-ing for a bit I try to see what skills I'm not using and dump those in favor of other combos. My typical build works like this:

Empathy
Backfire
Poison Arrows
Conjure Phantasm
Diversion
Power Sink
Distortion
Troll Ungent

My main attribute is domination, with illusion minor, then fast casting, marksmanship (only enough to use a nice bow), and wilderness survival. In this build, for PVE, everything works together. The poison arrows and phantasm makes a very nasty health degen (try coupling that with epidemic, perhaps). Empathy aids the front line fighters. Backfire obviously for shutting down mages (especially those using flare). The distortion lasts long enough that you have 75% evasion for casting troll ungent which is a wonderful spell with a miserable casting time. Distortion on its own can save your bacon when melee comes knocking. Diversion can lock down skills or spells on an enemy for a very long time.

So my advice there is to look at your skills both mesmer and ranger and see what can begin to work together to produce some nasty combinations. Remember you want to focus your attributes but you can really shift those around constantly if you need to better fit your current skill bar.

Another trick you may find handy is to run a strong bow as one weapon, of course, and to run a strong cane/energy battery (eg. chalice, chakram, etc). In the begining of the fight use the cane/chalice to do your alpha strike spell casting, then swap to your bow for your more steady-state casting and side damage. In my case I'm using a chakram that is +23 energy (across 2 bonuses) but -1 energy regen, so its great for the opening seconds of the fight but less useful for the steady-state of the fight. However, you can swap to it in the middle of the fight for a quick energy burst.

I think as the poster above said, the most important thing is to dump the pet (and maybe the res signet, but inform any team you are on about that) and to get your skills more focused and working together. Look at the costs of your skills so you aren't overloading yourself with 15 energy skills, then see how the ranger abilities can fill in the gaps or give you some flexibility.

My last recommendation is to take a good solid look at the rogue armor. I am currently using the courtly set, as you are casting a lot during a fight that may benefit you more as the rogue armor has a pretty hefty energy penalty with it. Usually you don't need constant armor in PVE only a sudden protection if the enemies decide you are their best friend (which is why distortion is wonderful). However, you almost always need energy.

I hope that helps!

I'd like to note that I find mesmer's excellent in PVE so long as you build them to do it. While you cannot do direct damage there are many skills that can pile together to do some nasty damage over time. It's not too hard to hit health degen of -10 on a target and keep it sustained. However, building a pure interrupt type mesmer can be frustrating in PVE. As always, build for the scenario you find yourself in and don't be afraid to move around attribute points and skills.

JYX · Jun 01, 2005, 02:06 PM // 14:06

The point about the rogue's set is an interesting one.

Hefty?...If we use the virtuoso's set as a benchmark...then it has an energy pentalty of 4. Not particularly hefty IMO. What can you do with around about 4 energy as a mesmer? A wastrel's worry? You can squeeze 1 more spell like empathy from using armor which provides more energy. An elementalist needs that large energy pool to pull large burst damage, in terms of DPS it dosen't help him much. This principle applies to a me/r who is seeking for damage, especially since he can dictate the rythmn of his attack to make use of some inspiration skills. From this point of view then it would appear that the maximum energy is an empty value to us.

However, as a pure mesmer I would recommend you get as many energy increasing sets as you can. This is because the mesmer is a reactionary character, you need the ability to respond to the enemy's actions at a moments notice. Many domination spells are NOT cheap. Everything that isn't shatter delusions/wastrel's worry or a signet costs 10 energy and up, up to 25 energy. As a pure mesmer you need that energy to pump out an interrupt EXACTLY when its needed, unlike the attacking mesmer you cannot afford to dictate your speed. Therefore, you do not want the rogue's set if you're simply making a traditional mesmer.

Looking at his previous build, my thoughts were that it was very much an attacking build, or at least trying to be. Thus I did not bring this up, though perhaps I should have.

Res signet:

He mentioned that he plays a bit of arena from time to time. Res sig in arena is a must. With only 4 people in the running, you cannot afford to not have a man standing. Every member of the team is playing a crucial role here. In an 8v8 if a warrior goes down then you have 2 more, this is not the case here. I've seen VERY few comebacks in the arena, yes this is partially down to the fact that random teams means many imbalanced draws, but I also believe that having 1 less man for any period of time is extremely devastating. IMO res signet in arena is a must. 8 seconds resing and a couple of seconds healing is a long time to be doing nothing where a match lasts maybe 1-2 minutes. No I'm a big fan of the res sig for arenas.

mesmer in PvE.

right. I assume you mean 10 pips of health degen. Thats 20dps. I also noticed you said a target, and indeed for degen I would not ask for more. No it is not hard to do this. But look at some of the wacky stuff the other classes can pull. Elementalists can pull numerous meteor showers at once if made right, thats 100 damage per meteor + knockdown. Smiting monks can do about 100 DPS to quite a large area around them for some time while healing themselves, I have a video of a smiting monk downing 8-10 flesh golems on their own...repeatedly, can't remember where I got it from now but I'll send it you if you're interested. before and after pictures. Using this build as said by Freyas, necros can make 30-40 bone minions at one time fight for you, plus death nova and the ability to keep them healed and sustain a portion between fights. I'm not so familiar with the PvE exploits of warriors and rangers but i've heard reports of 1 warrior monk taking on the whole of the riverside co-op mission justicars on his own. Don't know how he did it. Also I've heard reports that in underworld fertile season from a ranger is absolutely essential in underworld to give everyone a few thousand HP where spike damage would otherwise destroy you.

those builds...are good PvE...20DPS...is not good PvE.

Although that just reminded me of something. With me/ra you have mantra of recovery and quickening zephr, in addition to self heals in the form of healing spring and troll unguent and evades. You could possibly make a pure Fertile Season char who can pump out more fertile seasons than anyone else and tank...I'm not sure, Gonna have to think about that some more.

rii · Jun 01, 2005, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Dont think about that its lame and awful. I did it a while ago, and tbh its just silly.

rii · Jun 01, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Yeah, i did save it:
Mesmer/Ranger
Fast casting: 10+3
Beast Mastery: 11
Wilderness Survival: 10

Fertile Season
Arcane Echo
Mantra of Recovery
Quicking Zephyr
Serpents Quickness

Fertile Season has a recharge of 30 seconds.
Mantra of Recovery reduces this to 15
Zephyr reduces this to 7.5
Arcane Echo reduces this to a practical of 3.75
Fast Casting gives casting time of 2.85
(run serpents when recovery is recharging)

That means one fertile Season every 3.75 seconds, for 20 seconds, which results in a total of 5 casts, which is a bonus of 120AL (against everything) and 2350 health for everyone.
After those twenty seconds i think you can cool off a bit

, and cast only once every 10 seconds (serpents reduction). Youll do this for at least 10 seconds (i.e. one cast) before mantra and arcane echo are ready again.

gl hf

JYX · Jun 01, 2005, 02:31 PM // 14:31

does fertile season count as a "spell" then?

rii · Jun 01, 2005, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Dont know.... Going to have to hope so, but i dont see why not. I was under the impression that nature rituals were just really big 'spells'.

Tindalos · Jun 01, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Do note that my comments were primarily PVE as my PVP experience is quite limited.

I absolutely agree that 20 dps is not great. Also that 20 dps degen is in addition to backfire, empathy, or whatever damage your or your fighters are doing, etc. Which is why I noted that mesmers aren't really putting out direct damage. However, facing down a spell caster, or a mob that really likes you, and that degen can be very significant. It's also good for assisting fighters on the lines. Can be coupled with chaos storm, etc. The point being, it's good support damage. Also if your companions are throwing around bleeding, etc, the additional degen can add up quickly and drop enemies just as fast. Again that's PVE and specifically support oriented.

I tried the rogues set for a while and found the energy reduction was quite noticable. Perhaps only using one or two pieces of rogues (eg. the chest piece) is sufficient. My point there is, max armor all the time may not be necessary, just some of the time and that can be covered with skills like Distortion. Whereas we can get by with reduced energy, obviously, the more energy the better overall. For me, it's important to hit that magical "10" points of energy.

In most cases, maybe even all, the mesmer is a support character and complements the actions of their team. Another point I was making was that don't just focus on comibations within one of your classes but on combinations between your classes (i.e. poison arrows, conjure phantasm).

I love the fertile season design, that's really nifty.

The basic question is: do mesmer/rangers suck. Answer, no they don't but they do take some care to put together well. From energy considerations, to environment (PVP vs. PVE), to your own tastes there are a lot of factors to weigh. Ranger offers some nice skills that combo well with mesmer skills but I would caution that the mesmer/ranger will likely be a support character and not the main damage dealer.

Res Signet:

In PVP definitely have it around. In PVE, I tend to find it just sits there and does very little.

As far as mesmers in general in PVE.

From my personal experience I find mesmers work just fine in PVE. I tend to think they need a team, either henchies or other players, as the damage they put out is more "support" damage than kaboomage. However, I don't think they're frustrating, incapable, or really poor in PVE. I do think they are less forgiving and I like your notes about timing the attack sequence vs. reacting (damage mesmer vs. interrupt mesmer). Perhaps I was unclear on that point. In PVE mesmers can do well but need to be built carefully for the task based on predicted enemy types and party composition. I've recently been playing with a mesmer/warrior using the ideas of bleed, sword damage, chaos storm for the melee mass and have found it works very well. If he wants a more direct damaging mesmer primary then the mesmer/warrior may be a better choice.

Nice discussion on mesmers by the way!

rii · Jun 01, 2005, 03:14 PM // 15:14

In fact, if nature rituals are spells, you could charge to take people through the under world, since that kind of thing kicks ass there apparantly. So yes, me/r has its niche, like everyone else.

Tindalos · Jun 01, 2005, 03:28 PM // 15:28

I was just thinking about it so I don't have numbers in front of me.

Is the rogue's armor -1 energy per piece and the courtly armor +1 energy per piece? If so then changing from courtly to rogue is a -8 energy hit (from 34 to 26) which may be why I was feeling it was pretty significant.

Is that correct?

Raiddinn Beatdropper · Jun 01, 2005, 03:37 PM // 15:37

No combination is worthless, just pick 2 spell lines from your main class, and pick one spell line from your secondary whose abilities cover the weaknesses of your first class, then go say 5 spells from primary, 2 from secondary, and rez signet.

Throw whatever bonus attributes you have extra into your fast cast, but otherwise try to keep the spell power as high as possible in the actual spell lines.

Maybe you could go with Domination and Illusion and whatever supports distracting shot, load up the + cast time spells in illusion, and then use domination and the ranger skills to have 3 or so interrupts and diversion, and then whatever else for defense.

Its really all about your play style, what works well for someone else might not work well for you.

Tsunamii Starshine

Epinephrine · Jun 01, 2005, 04:06 PM // 16:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tindalos

I was just thinking about it so I don't have numbers in front of me.

Is the rogue's armor -1 energy per piece and the courtly armor +1 energy per piece? If so then changing from courtly to rogue is a -8 energy hit (from 34 to 26) which may be why I was feeling it was pretty significant.

Is that correct?

I believe the energy boosting armor (Enchanter's?) is an additional energy on the hands and feet, 2 additional on the legs and 3 additional on the chest, for a total of 7 extra energy, or a difference of 11 between Rogue and Enchanter's.

JYX · Jun 01, 2005, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tindalos

I was just thinking about it so I don't have numbers in front of me.

Is the rogue's armor -1 energy per piece and the courtly armor +1 energy per piece? If so then changing from courtly to rogue is a -8 energy hit (from 34 to 26) which may be why I was feeling it was pretty significant.

Is that correct?

No changing from Courtly to Rogue gives you 4 less energy. Just took a look at Roknar's forge. I'm using a +12 focus with full Rogue's set which means I have 38 energy now. I was in no way suggesting you maul your maximum energy to a state where you cannot string two spells together. If I had 26 energy I'd change from Rogue to something else FAST. I was just suggesting that as an attacking element or even a shutdown mesmer you should never really be full on energy for very long, thus regen is the primary concern.

edit: yes the difference between rogue and enchanters is 11.

I'm speaking in terms of PvP here, and as I said before, efficiency is king. Surely no character combo is useless, this is because no class on its own is useless, you can always be a pure ranger or a pure mesmer if your secondary class is letting you down. But for PvP you have to ask yourself can you fill a particular function better than someone else? If you want to damage can you damage better than everyone else? If you want to shut down can you do so better than everyone else? Yes EVERYONE else. It is also worth remembering that uneeded diversification is bad for PvP.

Look at it this way. You can use a me/ra to do fevered dreams and apply poison, thats a good combo yes. But how is it better than a ra/me doing poison fevered dreams and apply poison? Energy is not a concern, both are cheap, and its not too important to cast them fast. But rangers have better armor. Therefore when I'm presented with a me/ra and a ra/me who can both do this combo, I am going to pick the ra/me...not because the other one is crap...but because this guy is better, however slight the difference. Also rangers can have their runes to make the poison go further.

Diversification is another thing here. Yes rangers can fill in the weak spots for the mesmer as a secondary, a stance and a troll unguent go a long way. But again for PvP thats not necessary, I want my monks to be healing and to be protecting, and I want my mesmer to do their job with everything they've got. However, when adventuring with unreliable PUGs...yes a couple of ranger skills will go a long way.

..although the whole point is moot...if all you want is PvE...do whatever you feel like, if you get stuck anywhere...I promise you its not your class combo at fault.

Tindalos · Jun 01, 2005, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Heh well it seems between the comments on PVP and the comments of PVE that the primary question of whether nor not mesmer/rangers suck is an emphatic: no, but the build is going to be very different depending on PVP or PVE.

Fortunately, the refund points are easy to get!

Oh, and don't bother with the pet.

ron_8 · Jun 02, 2005, 06:22 AM // 06:22

thanks all for the comments, im lvl 13 right now but im just really dissapointed in my me/r, honestly id like to switch jobs, i have tried everything from using bows and canes and stuff, dont get me wrong, i love mesmers, as u can see i use mesmer skils primarily and dont even use ranger skills, and it sucks when my pet dies in arena and my whole skil bar starts recharging, it sux :S anyway thanks for all the comments il try to experiment a little more and maybe come up with the right build, that ofcourse if i dont get sick of it, i will put all the comments to use so thanks guys

Tindalos · Jun 02, 2005, 01:57 PM // 13:57

When (if) you get some different builds going please post them up here and whether you're using for PVP or PVE, what play style your aiming for, what goals you have for the build, expected team members (henchies, players, etc), where you're having trouble, things like that. I'd be happy to help as much as I can from the PVE point-of-view.

Good luck and have fun!

rii · Jun 02, 2005, 03:44 PM // 15:44

This build has no real relevance to anything, i just thought id post it cause it looks fun:

Mesmer/Ranger
Illusion: 10+3
Marksmanship: 10
Wilderness Survival: 11

Muddy Terrain
Crippling Shot [E]
Frozen Soil
Epidemic
Imagined Burden
Serpents Quickness
Sympathetic Visage
Etheral Burden

This is an anti-moving and anti-marathon man build.
Once the melee is started, get muddy terrain up. No speed buffs, and -10% speed for all. good start.
Use serpents quickness and see if muddy terrain stacks, but then find the melee, and cast crippling shot on any target and then follow up with an epidemic. cripple is a 50% movement deficit, which stacks to 60%.... i have a feeling that 50% is as low as it gets, but im going to continue anyway.
Put Frozen soil up to make the place a real bog. The enemy will want to get out in a hurry once its up, but they cant... get some fire nukes and teach em a lesson.
Imagined Burden and Etheral Burden to snare anyone that makes it away, plus a bit of energy from etheral. Finally, sympathetic viasge on whoever is taking the brunt of the attack... and let them fear me themselves. If you can get an ele on your team to get ward agasint foes as well, cast this on the melee, and hopefully witness 110% speed rection......

actually i dont think it works but nevermind....

Myodato · Jun 02, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Just because I have an odd liking for unusual and unexpected combinations, try Illusionary Weaponry + Tiger's Fury.

All you need to do then is hope that a Warrior comes and picks on you.