Curse

Savio · Dec 07, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04

My gear tank build (I've since made a few slight changes, but nothing big):
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0&postcount=34

W/E

Earth Magic 12
Strength 2+1
Axe Mastery 8+1 (Yes, Axe Mastery is pointless on a gear tank build)
Tactics 10+1+1

Obsidian Flesh - lasts 18 seconds, more than enough time to smack down casters. Unfortunately, a side effect is that the Taskmasters (Mesmers) will hex anyone in range rather than just you with the gear. (Well, actually they'll hex anyone regardless. Spell Breaker would be better if a Monk would bring it, but most don't.)

"Shields Up!" - lasts 18 seconds, reduces damage from Surveyors (Rangers) a bit.

"Watch Yourself!" - cheap +20 armor.

Sprint - because you're slow with the gear, and every bit helps.

Defensive Stance - 10 seconds of essentially 75% damage reduction* from Deep Knights (Warriors) and Surveyors. Try to use all your other skills before tossing this one up, as it ends when you use a skill.

Disciplined Stance - 10 more seconds of 75% damage reduction*. This one's slightly better because you can use Energy skills under it, but not "Watch Yourself!"

Bonetti's Defense - yet another 10 seconds of 75% damage reduction*. It's based on Adrenaline though, which is harder to get without Balthazaar's Spirit or if you spam "Watch Yourself!" a lot.

Resurrection Signet - because I'm bored and sometimes people are stupid in Grenth's Footprint (well, not anymore as I no longer go with PUGs). Sometimes I dragged Cap Sig along to laugh at the Warrior bosses and poor skill choices. (They all used to have Heavy Blow.)

*By damage reduction, I mean that since 75% of the regular attacks at you don't hit, it's effective 75% damage reduction. It's much better than trying to stack high amounts of armor, which reduces damage by half for every 40 armor you have, so stances are equivalent to about 60 more armor with no chance of it being interrupted. Skills that have +damage bypass armor, so armor stacking is pointless anyway.

Remember, to have the most efficient build you should have coordinated with the Monks anyway. Also, Rangers make decent tanks too.

Aeryun · Dec 07, 2005, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Thanks for all the great feedback guys

Didn't know the item bonuses would disappear, figured it still counted as 'equipped'. I should say Im primarily a monk, only resorted to war due to lack of acceptable sf tanks hehe.

As for shield stance... are you sure it doesnt work? When holding the gear I still go into it, get the -33% run speed... so I always assumed I got the avoidance as well. Hm ok I just activated it holding no shield ingame.. guess you're right

Revised:

1. Smite Hex (tanked in SF 7 times last night. Not once did a monk bring this. Glad I did, 70 aoe damage was nice and gives the tank something to do

)
2. Gladiator's Defense {e} (since SoJ can be poorly timed with SS, this requires less thinking)
3. Balthazar's Spirit
4. Bonetti's Defense
5. A rez spell (just in case. I find that most monks, myself included dont bring a rez. Not enough room on the bar of the prot monk at least. Balanced Stance was tempting, but hardly vital-- those ice golems were getting annoying though)
6. Banish (cheap 49 damage, found it nice to finish off stragglers and priests)
7. Scourge Healing (turns out I didnt consider Life barrier in the equation, Retribution only pings em for -1 due to damage decrease hehe. Scourge was much more useful for those annoying enemy healers)
8. Endure Pain

Also found that I rarely needed 3 stances. Glad's is fairly quick on the recycle and Bon's is super quick due to Bal Spirit. Plus with 2 [good] monks I dont think I ever fell below 80% health. Never needed Endure Pain but I used it for the heck of it every so often while herding several groups at a time.

Anyone have a suggestion for a more useful replacement for Endure Pain and/or ressurect? Going to try taking Holy Strike and Smite later to spike priests and mesmers since I was so often sitting on a full bar of energy.

lord_shar · Dec 07, 2005, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeryun

Im sure if you've been farming in SF you've run into a lot of clueless tanks. Specifically tanks who think they are stance tanks but who well.... aren't. If you're one of those who has gotten booted from the group at the first stone summit encounter, or a warrior who wants to learn how to farm SF, this is for you. Im not saying this is the end-all stance build or even a good all-around stancer... This is specifically for SF keg/stance tanks.

Things to consider:

...<SNIP>

2) With 2 monks (usually a bonder and healer types) you dont need that crappy heal sig. If you are a W/Mo, please please PLEASE dont bring mending. As one of the smarter tanks Ive encountered said, "nothing good ever came out of mending" In SF you will need extremely minimal healing skills if your monks are even slightly decent.

Sorry, but I got a good chuckle out of this one.

I've done many 4 and 5 man SF runs as a stance tank, and I always assume that the monks are not necessarily reliable. This mentality has served me very well. Mending is a must in my book, but only if backed by 8 or 9 healing. Mending and Healing Breeze usually go in since Bonetti's nets LOTS of free energy... you might as well use that energy both defensively and efficiently. 9-10 regen with Mending + Breeze never hurts. The monks I go with tend to get lazy when my toon doesn't require nearly as much healing while stance-tanking

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeryun

3) You need *stances* to be a stance tank. Plural. Oh and *defensive stances*. We're not talking Frenzy. Remember, you won't be swinging a weapon 90% of the time, if ever. A single defensive stance with a long ass recycle time isnt acceptable either. As a stance tank, you should be in a stance AT ALL TIMES, or nearly so.

4) If you're a W/Mo going smite, in general dont bring Bal's Aura or SoW... with the anti aoe code these days its not worth it, and can just end up messing up the SS necro.

Ok since you're all W/Mos, here's my favorite W/Mo kegger build for SF:

12 Tactics
12 Smite
7 Strength

(thats with minor runes. dont bother with sups)

1. Smite Hex (unless the healer monk goes heal/smite. this speeds things up a lot)
2. Shield of Judgement {e} (same as above... in which case, take Gladiator's Defense instead, a great stance)
3. Balthazar's Spirit (you're taking all the hits... free eng/adr)
4. Bonetti's Defense (not so much for the energy, but its a great avoidance stance that runs off adrenaline so it will nearly always be charged)
5. Shield Stance (75% to block attacks. When Bonetti's is down..)
6. Disciplined Stance (shield stance backup, if you find 4&5 are enough, you might sub this out for riposte or deadly riposte. Also if you are bringing Glad stance, dont bring this)
7. Retribution (Easy to use enchantment for your first build. Does a little damage back without the scatter. I like to bring Scourge Healing instead, if there is no smiting monk with it, but thats a little more intensive)
8. Endure Pain (I know you'll feel more comfortable with some kind of heal. Good idea anyway in a pickup group I suppose. The only substitute should be Healing Breeze, though be aware most monks use this and you will probably end up overlapping and wasting a cast)

I've used both SoJ and Gladiators, and Gladiators seems to be a more efficient defensive stance for these reasons:

1) relatively fast stance recycle time of 30 seconds. SoJ has a long 45-sec recharge with 30 sec cool down gap (ouch!)
2) works no matter what your toon is holding
3) cheap casting cost at 5 energy

GD + Bonetti's are usually enough to withstand 20 seconds of sustained punishment, leaving a 10 second gap for a 3rd stance to cover before GD is ready again. SoJ has a 30 sec. cooldown gap to cover.

Balt's Spirit seems unnecessary since it only nets energy while taking hits, dropping 1 energy regen while being maintained. The biggest threats are usually mesmer hexes, which Mending + Breeze usually offset. Yes, mesmers love stripping enchantments, but breeze is easy to recast through them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeryun

Also, make sure you are in a stance before trying to cast. This is probably the heaviest damage kegger you should ever see. Don't be afraid to go more defensive if you want. Remember, its your job to take the damage not deal it.

***** BEFORE REPLYING REMEMBER THIS IS FOR SF*****

I don't agree with this being the heaviest stance tank, since it requires 2 monks to keep alive, when 1 monk is all my build needs.

Lou · Dec 07, 2005, 11:00 PM // 23:00

First of all your mending is a waste since the barrier monk or healing monk brings it and healing breeze is just asking to get stripped.

Yukito Kunisaki · Dec 07, 2005, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Stances only? I smell the blood of an inefficient Englishman! [warrior...]

Erm...

There is no proof that going all stances is better than going Stance, Enchant, Shield, Skill mix...

er signet...

Dolyak Signet
Gladiator's Defense {E}
Watch Yourself!!
Shield's Up!!

Ka pow!!

Now you've given you AND your party members a huge defense bonus to attacks, near immunity to ranged, and you've given yourself a massive boost in AL along with auto-hit counter stance.

Stacking more than just stances is sooo much more useful...

Stances alone? I'd rather not...

Aeryun · Dec 08, 2005, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Yuki -- missing the point man, your party wont be getting attacked. You will. My post is *only concerning gear tanks*

I know someone will followup saying nontanks get pummeled in SF runs too, so let me say in advance those people getting hit arent paying attention and wandering into aggro/aoe/hex range.

Shar -- wanna share your build? I strongly disagree with mending and even with breeze but Im curious how yours is more damage heavy. I like new ideas

Sometimes I do share your fear for lazy monking, but Endure Pain is my panic button. Ya know though, you're probably right about Balth Aura... since Im usually sitting on all that energy anyway. But I dont know what I'd rotate it out for, and at the very least it acts as a hex shield protecting the monk's enchantments underneath. Also Ill need to test if Bonettis charges fast enough without BAura on.

Im actually playing with a w/n and w/e gear tank now to find an even higher dps gear tank build and will post what I come up with once I have time to snag the elites. Im not getting hexxed enough to satisfy my thirst for smiting hehe.

lord_shar · Dec 08, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azeroths Hammer

First of all your mending is a waste since the barrier monk or healing monk brings it and healing breeze is just asking to get stripped.

Actually, if you breeze breeze over mending first before charing in, breeze will get stripped, but mending will be fine. Chain cast breeze if you must, or keep it handy in case your monk runs dry on energy or is busy saving someone else for whatever reason

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeryun

...<SNIP>...

Shar -- wanna share your build? I strongly disagree with mending and even with breeze but Im curious how yours is more damage heavy. I like new ideas

Sometimes I do share your fear for lazy monking, but Endure Pain is my panic button. Ya know though, you're probably right about Balth Aura... since Im usually sitting on all that energy anyway. But I dont know what I'd rotate it out for, and at the very least it acts as a hex shield protecting the monk's enchantments underneath. Also Ill need to test if Bonettis charges fast enough without BAura on.

I didn't say this build outputs more damage, but it seems to soak up punishment very well. Skills get rotated depending on what the party needs, but here's what my tank typically brings:

1) Galrath's Slash, Bezerker's Stance or Flurry (pre-gear utility)
2) Gladiator's Defense
3) Bonetti's Defense
4) Endure pain (I agree with you here)
5) usually Mend Ailment, Remove Hex, or whatever you need for anti-hex/condition
6) Mending (only with 8+ healing)
7) Healing Breeze (only with 9+ healing)
8) free slot -- use for 3rd stance or whatever suits your needs.

The nice thing about stacking breeze + endure pain + mending is that you can take a very large initial damage hit from mob focus-fire without going down, especially with protective spirit on top. From there, your monk(s) can perform the usual damage control while the rest of the party does its work.

My stance tank uses full gladiator's armor, since the bulk of the sustained damage is physical damage (100 effective armor)

Another benefit with this set-up: it can double as a make-shift heal-monk should one healer suffer an untimely NetErr=7.

During the course of 1 mission, this tank set-up plus two others still managed to complete an indoor SF boss run after everyone else dropped or quit. No, this build is anything but perfect, but I've had excellent results with it over lots of trips. I don't remember the last failed run (it's been a while).

keung · Dec 15, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

alot of great input here.. i've setup a stance build, but i'm not quite sure how to test it.. trying to find a group with people who'd like to help out a stancetank test run is seems to be close to impossible.. and running with henchies seems to suck aswell

jesh · Dec 15, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

*By damage reduction, I mean that since 75% of the regular attacks at you don't hit, it's effective 75% damage reduction. It's much better than trying to stack high amounts of armor, which reduces damage by half for every 40 armor you have, so stances are equivalent to about 60 more armor with no chance of it being interrupted. Skills that have +damage bypass armor, so armor stacking is pointless anyway.

Remember, to have the most efficient build you should have coordinated with the Monks anyway. Also, Rangers make decent tanks too.

Stances can be ended by wild blow and don't protect VS elements. Please tell me how Watch Yourself, Defy Pain, and Dolyak Signet can be stripped.
... I'm still waiting. That's +80 armor, plus your shield, and a defense mod on a weapon (101 al). As for holding a gear, that's for groups that don't know how to manage aggro.

Yukito pegged this right, there's no reason you can't use armor enhancing skills as well as a long stance, it's more resiliance for the other 25%. Adding something like physical resistance, sympathetic visage, armor of earth, mist form, swirling aura, shields up.. that just makes it killer. Pure stances is like advocating a pure healing build.

lord_shar · Dec 15, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Stances can be ended by wild blow and don't protect VS elements. Please tell me how Watch Yourself, Defy Pain, and Dolyak Signet can be stripped.
... I'm still waiting. That's +80 armor, plus your shield, and a defense mod on a weapon (101 al). As for holding a gear, that's for groups that don't know how to manage aggro.

This set-up's only weakness is hexes. Otherwise, it looks good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Yukito pegged this right, there's no reason you can't use armor enhancing skills as well as a long stance, it's more resiliance for the other 25%. Adding something like physical resistance, sympathetic visage, armor of earth, mist form, swirling aura, shields up.. that just makes it killer. Pure stances is like advocating a pure healing build.

Agreed with the above... there's no reason to make a one-dimensional tank that gets owned without 2+ monks.

Yukito Kunisaki · Dec 16, 2005, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Amen peeps, amen...

4runner · Dec 16, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Sf stance tank!:

1.glads df.
2.bonettis
3.watch urself
4.endure pain
5.heeling breeze
6.hex removal
7.dolyak signet
8.condition removal/shields up, deflect arrows, i will survive, vim !!!

All i ever needed with 1 good healer/protector!!!