Curse

Neo-LD · Jun 28, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

R/**

11+3 Expertise
10+2 Marsmanship
10+1 Beast Mastery

Punishing Shot
Distracting Shot
Penetrating Shot
Tigers Fury
Throw Dirt
Whirling Defense
Debilitating Shot
Res Sig

Since it doesnt use wilderness or a secondary attribute, I can give lots of points to beast for more tigers fury. Its a fairly straight foreward build, use TF and focus down on your target with penetrating/punishing/debiitating, and distract any important spells. Whirling D when focused, throw dirt when you get a chance. Res Sig is very important for arena.

Nothing too flashy, but I used this build with my guild mates (a monk, ele, and war) and won several matches in a row, several times.

ComMan · Jun 29, 2005, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Just a thought, are you using a mask + minor rune to get that +2 on Marks? If you do it that way then you only lose 75 HP for the one superior rune on Expertise, as opposed to 2 -50s if you used a mask + Major Rune for expertise.

Personally, I'd drop Debilitating Shot or Whirling Defense for Pin Down, more to deal with runners than anything else. Just IMO though.

Venom · Jun 29, 2005, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

...I can give lots of points to beast for more tigers fury.

In this case, "lots" REALLY means LOTS. Most people on the forums agree that 4 points in beast mastery is the ideal number (3+1 minor rune).
I would take throw dirt or whirling defense out. I prefer whirling defense, though throw dirt could be more useful to other people on your team. I use 3 superior runes (marks, exp, vigor), and a +hp bow grip.
Right now, my build is a pure ranger one, and it looks like you want to go that way too. With a 3-superior setup, you can get 14/11/13, or 14/12/12, and 4 in beast mastery.

So yeah, I guess all I'd suggest is lowering beast mastery to 4, and spamming TF as soon as the skill is available. That will give you more points to play around with, and maybe do something with Wilderness Survival. You can also consider Incendiary Arrows and/or Choking Gas for more constant disruption. If you do choose to add some skills from a secondary class, I'd suggest going Necro for Rend Enchantments.

Tellani Artini · Jun 29, 2005, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Throw dirt is so much better than whirling. Why? Because you can protect allies as well as yourself.

Do consider preparations (kindle arrows) rather than TF as a more cost-effective method of increasing DPS, with more skill options than the beast mastery line.

Red Locust · Jun 29, 2005, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Yes but conditions are so easily and quickly removed. That warrior will probably be blinded for 3-4 seconds before a monk takes care of it. At least with whirling defense, enemies are gonna have a much harder time or altogether abandon killing you.

ComMan · Jun 29, 2005, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Yes but conditions are so easily and quickly removed. That warrior will probably be blinded for 3-4 seconds before a monk takes care of it. At least with whirling defense, enemies are gonna have a much harder time or altogether abandon killing you.

This is true in tombs, not in arena. Most arena teams don't even have monks, much less good ones.

Red Locust · Jun 29, 2005, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComMan

This is true in tombs, not in arena. Most arena teams don't even have monks, much less good ones.

Still, making a build that relies on your enemy making a mistake is not the best idea. A weak enemy would go down easily anyways, while a strong enemy would punish you for making that mistake.

ComMan · Jun 29, 2005, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Still, making a build that relies on your enemy making a mistake is not the best idea. A weak enemy would go down easily anyways, while a strong enemy would punish you for making that mistake.

Neither Whirling D nor Throw Dirt is a mistake, either choice has pros and cons. If you carry Whirling D and you're the last person on your team to be attacked (which means you'll hopefully have already used your rez sig) then that's a wasted skill slot, as all it does is prolong the inevitable.

If you carry Throw Dirt you can try to protect your allies as well as yourself. You take the risk of the enemy using Mend Ailment to get rid of it, but IMO it's a more valuable skill than Whirling D. Whirling D may be better for self-protection, but that's all it can do.

Red Locust · Jun 29, 2005, 07:04 AM // 07:04

The way I see it, that slot is for a self-preservation skill. You're not gonna save anyone's life by blinding the warrior because he'll be fixed up in a couple seconds, especially in the arena. I mean, what kind of team has a warrior and no condition removal? A 45 s. recharge spell for a couple seconds of blind? No thanks.

The only real counter to WD is wild blow, and that skill is rarely seen (mainly because the majority of stance users are warriors and rangers and noone worries about them till last). At least it gives you 18s. of rest time from warriors, within which to rez.

The only real effective use for conditions seems to be when you're piling them on as a warrior or spreading them around constantly as a ranger or necro.

Neo-LD · Jun 29, 2005, 03:21 PM // 15:21

lol guys, I actually switched between dirt and whirling many times before I decided that it was better to just bring them both. They have insane cooldowns, so only bringing one isnt enough if they come for me more than 1 time. Also, I try to save dirt for when my monk is in trouble against a war.

The other reason is that there really isnt another skill that Im missing badly here. If there was, I would switch out dirt or whirling, but for now its safer to have both.

@ComMan

For Dibil vs Pin Down, I actually had Pin Down in that spot for about 1/2 the matches that day. But after my teams streak was cut short at ~8 by a team of rangers, my monk asked me "Neo, are you using Dibilitating Shot?" I said no, and he said, "use it, it owns monks trust me." He was right. We didnt really miss my cripple anyways becuase the war just brought hamstring.

I get +3 expertise from a sup rune, and +2 marks from a minor+mask.

ComMan · Jun 29, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

IMO, if you want to hunt monks carry Melandru's Arrows. None of them run around without enchantments.

I play a monk PvP template as one of my secondary characters, with which I have 86 mana to spend. Even if I'm spamming 5 mana heals, it'll take a while to shut that down with Debilitating Shot. Plus, I can just run. IMO, I have more troubles with Mesmers and Hammer Warriors than Rangers, but maybe I just haven't met a good one yet.

Neo-LD · Jun 30, 2005, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Im not sure how you can deny that debil shot doesnt shut down, or at least annoy casters. Monks are one type of caster, and 10 mana off at certain critical moments in the battle is nothing to sneeze at. Maybe if that was the center of the build, you could complain its not enough, but really its just one minor thing I can throw in on top of my regular damage shots. Hunting monks is not the point of this build. It works together with the other members of the party to focus fire a soft target, while also throwing in interupt and a little energy removal. The "soft target" can be (usually is) a monk, but it also could be a mes, nec, or ele.

As for Melandrus Arrows, yea sure it would be good vs monks, but I still take punishing as my elite.

ICURADik · Jun 30, 2005, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Healing touch(level 12) with 16 Divine Favor and Divine Boon running, heals for 223 health for 7 energy. A ranger removing 10 energy is in effect doing 320ish damage to your party, eventually. Healing touch is an extremely efficient case, but it is safe to say removing 10 energy from a monk effectively prevents him for doing around 200 points of healing. In tombs groups, no one ever dies... until the monks have 0 energy. That's when the shit hits the fan. Unless of course you have a spike group, where you rely on the other team having no defense against nukes and slow monks.

There are several thing's you must realize with Debilitating shot.
1) If you have 14 expertise it only cost 4 energy to use.
2) It also does normal bow damage(unlike distracting shot which will do 12-14 depending on your marksmanship).
3) It requires absolutely no conditions. Many mesmer energy denial spells require you to hit the enemy while they are casting a spell. Debilitating shot does not.
4) It can be combo'd with a skill like Echo/Arcane Echo for back to back usage, 20+ energy removal every 5 seconds.

Rangers have from 25-32 energy. 8 Echoe'd Debilitating shots will cost the ranger 5 + 8*4 energy and 20 seconds to use. 37 energy to remove 80(most casters will regain 27 in this time frame, so you really have done about 53 energy loss) is an excellent deal. You gain 20 energy in 20 seconds with a ranger which should leave you with about 15 to restart your echo chain or finish them off with attack skills. Once they hit 0 energy, one debilitating shot every 5 seconds can keep any caster there indefinately. While the Ranger maintains a comfortable +1 regen(or more using a zealous string).

This is an absolutely extreme example. In normal conditions an Echo-Debil ranger will have switched targets half way through the chain to begin depleting a second target. Also keep in mind, this is energy denial on a target doing absolutely no casting. Even your 86 energy monk will start to feel pressure after 10 or so seconds and a few 10 energy heals. Not to mention you neg 2 energy regen to gain that 86 energy will just make keeping you at 0 energy easier for the ranger.

ComMan · Jun 30, 2005, 04:03 AM // 04:03

I can only speak for what I've seen and done. I've yet to shut down a caster with Debilitating Shot and I've yet to have my monk shut down by a Ranger. I've had a Ranger used Debilitating Shot to shut down my Ranger, but not my monk.

I don't doubt that you CAN build an Energy Denial Ranger, I just don't see why when the Mesmer can do so much more toward that end.

By the by, I have 13 Expertise. Maybe that's part of my problem.

Neo-LD · Jun 30, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

how does one get 86 mana as a monk?

ComMan · Jul 01, 2005, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

how does one get 86 mana as a monk?

Eugh, this is a major screw up on my part. Should be 68, not 86. Sorry about that.

Neo-LD · Jul 01, 2005, 02:47 AM // 02:47

And you achieve that with total tatoos a wand and focus, right? (just checking, I wish my monk had 68 mana

)

ComMan · Jul 01, 2005, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

And you achieve that with total tatoos a wand and focus, right? (just checking, I wish my monk had 68 mana

)

Correct, although total tatoos are the ugliest thing ever made.

Edit: holy shizoli! Now that I look at it I'm a greater fool than I already knew I was! My wand is giving me -1 mana regen! Time to rebuild...stronger...faster....less explodie....with 4 pips of mana regen. That's what I get for making a monk real quickly just to test the waters (then staying with it because it was easier to find groups).