Curse

Ripper · Jun 14, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Barrage removes all preperations. Choking gas is a preperation. You can't apply poison, or choking gas and barrage 6 targets.

Epinephrine · Jun 14, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

14 is the bare minimum you want to have in Expertise if you're running a lot of Ranger skills... period.

Unless you pick carefully and don't take any 10 cost skills. Since I was running 5 cost skills I don't care for the extra point to get the break, 13 is enough. Ultimately look at the skills you have and the breakpoints - figure out how often you'll use each type of skill, and if it pays for it, bump to 14. If you are a barrage bot with distracting shot, hunter's shot and poison arrow for example as your non-barrage arrow skills it makes little sense to invest an extra rank to get no effect. As you can see, below, there is no advantage to going to a 14 if you don't use a lot of 10 cost or 25 cost skills; the 5 and 15 hit a breakpoint at 13 Expertise.

Expertise 5 Energy Skills 10 Energy Skills 15 Energy Skills 25 Energy Skills

0 5 10 15 25
1 5 10 14 24
2 5 9 14 23
3 4 9 13 22
4 4 8 13 21
5 4 8 12 20
6 4 8 11 19
7 4 7 11 18
8 3 7 10 17
9 3 6 10 16
10 3 6 9 15
11 3 6 8 14
12 3 5 8 13
13 2 5 7 12
14 2 4 7 11
15 2 4 6 10
16 2 4 5 9

Zeru · Jun 14, 2005, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Favorable Winds not good? I don't know about that, it's always seemed useful as another buff stacker that's not a prep (and therefore canceled by barrage) and when you're using debil/distracting the half flight time is very helpful. Of course, it's really only useful when your team has more Rangers than the enemy which can be nearly all the time or rarely depending on your setup.

Zyuu · Jun 14, 2005, 08:21 PM // 20:21

I guess bad was harsh, but fav winds is not good.. not worth a skill slot unless your team has at least 2 or 3 rangers (rare).. there are just so many more useful skills

ok.. straight up barrage build.. I implied the better choice in my other post but here you go

basically u want superior marks, expertise and vigor, with a +1 marks mask. u want 4 in beastmastery, 14 expertise (14>>>>13 because of tf for this), and either 12, 15 or 16 in marksmanship, depending on your other attribute line

barrage
tiger's fury

end of ranger skills for this purpose

barrage is a great skill, not because it shines 100% of the time, but because its good in certain situations (certain altar fights) and a mediocre single target dmg skill with low recycle in others.... It also requires hardly any other skills to make it effective, thus opening up your skill options for other things such as distracting, debilitating, concussion shot, pin down, spirits, res or res sig, hex removal, enchantment removal, etc etc... it is also very light on energy, which enables u to use your other skills pretty much anytime they are needed

another thing to consider is the elevation on the altar when u are attacking it, your dmg is reduced fairly significantly even by that tiny difference, while spell based dmg is not affected at all.. notice how u can barrage someone for 80-100 fairly often in other situations, but most barrage onto an altar will land for 50-65 ish by itself.. which is still pretty nice, but something to consider.. remember seed is often hidden somewhere and thats 32 health to everyone u just hit

if u were to run a barrage type of build, it would probably be a good idea to have a necro or /necro with chilblains on your team.. and possibly some kind of area knockdown like earthquake or thunderclap

Z

Scaphism · Jun 14, 2005, 11:02 PM // 23:02

@Epi:
At first it looks like you're right about only needing 13 expertise to run 5 energy skills (I've done this myself while making builds.)

Then you remember you run Tiger's Fury all the time, and it's a 10 energy skill before expertise.

Barrage isn't a combo, it's a good skill.
Barrage + Tiger's Fury is what makes this an excellent combo.

Shrapnel_Magnet · Jun 15, 2005, 05:40 AM // 05:40

It's not ONLY the refire time that makes me like Half Moons and/or Shortbows over the Flatbow... it's the Arc/Trajectory.

Flatbow shoots nice and high, which is good for hitting a target who's standing still at a distance... but not good for shooting a target on the move. I used to find that if I wasn't running Read the Wind or similar, it was hard to hit people when using flatbows... however, this problem dissapeared with the Half Moon bow.

I used to never be a big fan, but I'm a convert.

JYX · Jun 15, 2005, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Fair enough, I've not tested this out so I wouldn't really know, just seems on paper the flight time dosen't have such an impact. I'll grab a Half Moon Bow then...also, is it just me or is the half moon bow and the shortbow exactly the same in terms of stats?

Zyuu: Barrage isn't amazing in all situations no. But look at it in terms of DPS, its not awful either. 42.75 DPS to anyone standing in range when using Barrage+Tiger's Fury+Judge's Insight+Favorable Winds, lets assume you're just targeting one person, an Illusionary Weaponry build can only muster 47.4 DPS to one person using IW and Frenzy. So while its not the best skill for all situations, its hardly bad either in any situation either.

If I were just to use Barrage at 12 Marks and 4 Beastmastery this would mean a DPS of roughly 28.7. At the start basically I said I was looking for something to replace an AoE ele build. 28.7 DPS is not good enough for that purpose, 42.75 DPS is good enough. Although I have no doubts if I were to just take Tiger's Fury+Barrage I'll be a much more competent ranger for interrupts or conditions or spirits.

I don't intend to make this build, I just wanted to know if a ranger using Barrage instead of your traditional AoE ele is possible, and having actually come up with a build which has no reason why it shouldn't work, I guess thats been answered.

Another problem, spirit spamming, I have no experience in those at all, what are some useful spirits for a particular situation? I can see having everyone taking cold protection (in terms of armour/mantra) and then using winter, perhaps that is a viable counter to an air ele spike build. Fertile Season really requires high beastmastery to make it work, as does symbiosis...Other than that, I'm out of ideas with rituals. Anyone care to pitch in?

Rajamic · Jun 15, 2005, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Well, one of the big ones takes your Winter + Fur-Lined Armor and adds in Greater Conflagration + Dryder's Defenses (or with a Ra/Mes Mantra of Frost). Now all physical and elemental damage is cold, and you have 115 AL vs cold, which is about 38% of normal damage. Mantra of Frost would take another 45% off after that, making you damn-near invincible, and give you 1 mana every time you take an attack of most kinds (Holy, Mesmer, and most Nerco damage should still get through unaffected). With how little damage you'd be taking, you may as well throw in Frozen Soil. Not like you'll be dying anytime soon.

Quickening Zephyr should work good in a Spirit spamming team setup. Most people don't like it, but if you are using a group of rangers to spam the spirits, they won't care about the extra mana costs. Since Rangers don't have hexes and enchantments in their arsenal, Nature's Renewal would work in a spirit spam team as well.

As far as Symbiosis, my El/Mo loves that one. I was using the Centaurs' spirits to my advantage, since I keep Vigorous Spirit on 3 team members at all times (it's a cheap enchant that lasts 30 seconds). Add in the long-lasting Aura of Restoration on myself, and that my main heal spell is Healing Breeze, and you get a lot of really high max HPs. Once I get him enough Earth/Protection spells to go Uber-protector with him, he'll like Symbiosis even more!

Zyuu · Jun 16, 2005, 01:47 AM // 01:47

ok first of all: if u are trying to prove a point with numbers u must say how u are obtaining the numbers, otherwise it is just a bunch of nonsense..

"Barrage isn't amazing in all situations no. But look at it in terms of DPS, its not awful either"

never said it was awful, read my last post again. im saying JI and favorable winds are not worth taking on a ranger in -most- situations

now let me see if I understand your argument

barrage+tiger's fury is not good enough... and the reason given is it only does 28.7 dmg per sec.. compared to 42.75 dps with the alternative (JI+favorable)... the end.

does this not sound incomplete? how did u obtain an average dps? does it factor in the cast time of JI? how about the time u missed a large group barrage opportunity while u were casting JI.. how about the time u went to hit tiger's fury but u only had 2 energy from a prolonged fight using JI on a single or double (optimistic) target? how about the critical hit chance and damage increase gained by lowering smiting for a higher marksmanship?

lastly, obviously ji as well as favorable winds will increase your damage in a strike by strike comparison to not having them up, my point is that it is often inferior in other tombs matches aside from altar, and sometimes even in altar.. as u limit yourself to monk secondary, as well as smiting attribute, and all the other disadvantages mentioned in my last paragraph.. and previous post

while barrage + tiger's fury is completely open, does comparable damage in my experience, and only takes two skill spots on your bar

Z

JYX · Jun 16, 2005, 09:16 AM // 09:16

I supplied the workings in my previous post. The numbers are basically the same apart from that I calculated the average effect of not having Tiger's Fury up all the time as a fraction of the damage given. Besides, the calculations were so simple...if you really cared you could've checked yourself in about a minute. Also I didn't calculate the 2 second casting time for Judge's Insight, as I expected there to be some sort of gap in the fight every 15 seconds. Also, take a second look, I supplied the attribute points that the calculations depended on, therein is your answer about whether I calculated the added boon to marksmanship if no smiting were to be taken. Also you only normally calculate casting times, breaks in a comparison of DPM.

Your feelings about Barrage being not as useful as other skills in certain tombs matches is right. But they apply to AoE spells in general. Here I was seeing if it was possible for something to replace the AoE elementalist using Barrage, whether AoE itself is an attribute worth having wasn't in question. But that seems to be where we're headed. Also in a previous post I put it to you that the chances of you hitting 2 people regularly and 1 person occasionally using Barrage was not that rare if you time yourself right. Obviously you didn't feel that way...

My argument was that the purpose of this build was to replace an AoE ele. This is a particular job in our 8 man team. Of course we also want interrupters, whether ranger or warrior or mesmer, we want disruption and we want (maybe) degen or whatever floats your boat. We want those things aside from AoE. Now you seem to be saying that in essence this ranger would be better spent doing something else. Yeah thats true, AoE isn't high on my list. But if all other bases were covered...or a team really wanted to have this AoE capability, I wanted to be able to supply an alternative which was perhaps an improvement on the fire elementalist in terms of AoE damage. Look at your average pyromancer, all 8 of those skills are geared towards maintaining and dishing out his AoE damage. From what I've seen...we can compete with this using 4 skills from a ranger, whereas using just Barrage and Tiger's Fury falls short, thus, does not fit the AoE role in the 8 man squad the way a Pyromancer would.

At no point was I discussing about rangers in general, I was trying to find a fairly unconditional AoE damage build using Barrage. The examples and ideas you raised are geared towards making him a better ranger, but a poorer nuker. Perhaps you would like to tell me what you think of Fire Elementalists, the way you slate AoE in general?

Zyuu · Jun 16, 2005, 02:22 PM // 14:22

I'm not denouncing barrage at all.. its a great skill, -by itself-

now I guess I just skipped that post when I saw DPS written all over it.. whoops. Really though, these kinds of calculations are futile when comparing such a short duration buff such as JI to something that lasts indefinately.. on top of a 2 second cast time, and 10 energy. I say that because of the reasons in my previous post

barrage cant really match the ae damage of an ele within a short period of time, but as u said the more the ele is built for ae dmg, the better he becomes at ae. while the ranger is basically the same, while still being able to bring many other skills for different purpose

now as for the calculations.. if u are going to do something like this u should use these formula http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

if u did then ignore that, can't really tell as I dont have the time right now

also im guessing this dps u are making is on a 60 armor target?

"57/2 * 1.5"

also you cant barrage every 2 seconds, im guessing thats what that 2 is, ideally you can barrage every 2.33 seconds with tiger's fury on i think, but then u neglected an extra normal attack by stopping it and using barrage

without tiger's fury u can barrage every 3 seconds if u neglect the normal attacks in between

how are you getting +10 from judge's insight? rough guess?

running out of time, as for the ae suggestions, I can do it later, but u need to tell me how many of each profession u want to bring.. or I can just make something up arbitrarily

try a nec with chilblains
and 2 ele specing fire and/or earth

use skills like earthquake, aftershock, meteor shower, phoenix, rodgort's.. but if u use that use it first as the cast time is rediculous..u can also consider /me for echo or arcane echo

also u want them knocked down as long as possible (one of the main benefits of ele as an ae'r) to delay the healing

Z

JYX · Jun 16, 2005, 02:56 PM // 14:56

10 from Judge's Insight comes from my personal experience testing it by shooting people in arenas with a PvP char. Although it may as well be a rough guess from the randomness of the damages, for example, it appears to be more helpful against people with more armor. Also I think necros are meant to have it bad with Judge's Insight but I didn't find a necro in the arena to test it on. I would say 10 damage difference was an average of what I was seeing while I was there.

AoE damage as an elementalist relies entirely on the situation. For KoTH tombs matches for example, I would actually pick something like arcane echo meteor shower above searing heat/deep freeze/earthquake/aftershock. Echoed Phoenix is also a nice one, a quick 400+ damage at max fire if applied to the right target, but again situation dictates. Skills like earthquake/aftershock/searing heat/deep freeze are better, but have their own individual flaws, for example, earthquake would combo extremely well with aftershock if aftershock wasn't PBAoE. What I was trying to do here was to make something with less of those flaws, by approaching it from a different angle, high AoE DPS not burst damage. Judge's Insight for holy damage, less resistances/defenses against holy and Barrage. Problem here is...you really kind of need burst damage...because people tend to split up after the first volley...

Why can we not use Barrage every 2 seconds normally? According to this certain bows can fire once every 2 seconds. If the best we can muster is once every 2.33 seconds...that really kinda screws up the entire idea.

How many I want to bring?...None. I don't intend on running AoE builds in its current (quite frankly poor) state. But if you got any wonderful and original suggestions on how to dish out big and unconditional AoE damage, I'd love to hear it.

Epinephrine · Jun 16, 2005, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scaphism

@Epi:
At first it looks like you're right about only needing 13 expertise to run 5 energy skills (I've done this myself while making builds.)

Then you remember you run Tiger's Fury all the time, and it's a 10 energy skill before expertise.

Barrage isn't a combo, it's a good skill.
Barrage + Tiger's Fury is what makes this an excellent combo.

Well, it depends on how you do it I guess - since Tiger's Fury is the only 10 cost skill running, and you use it every 10 seconds or so you are talking about a difference of one energy each time, for a difference of at most 6 energy per minute - that's pretty small. You then have to decide if 0.3 of a pip of energy saved justifies an attribute level from 13 to 14. I really think it depends on the build. Would that attibute be better served elsewhere? You have at least a 10 base to get a 14, probably more (I don't picture the 3+1 being on Expertise), so you are freeing up say 16 attribute points; depending on what else you have around you can at least extend your tiger's fury by a second, possibly adding to your buffing line and so on. The extra second of TF doesn't add a ton, an extra shot every 40 seconds (about 3.7% increase in DPS), so it isn't a huge deal, but 16 attribute points (or 20?) could buff your other line as well. I've run some numbers, it doesn't look like a huge improvement, but you can up your damage output by 8% or so while bumping your energy use up marginally (0.5 pips), or bump your damage up 4% or so while only using 1/10th of a pip more energy (by extending the duration of JI for example you reduce the costs associated with its maintenance, while shifting the ratio of JI/non-JI time as well), depending on build. I find so long as I am well geared up I am not short on energy unless targetted with energy sapping hexes/spells.

I was just pointing out that saying flat out that 14 is the number you want can be shortsighted, it does matter what your build is.

Zyuu · Jun 16, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

everous... pretty good post, I agree with just about all of it

nothing wrong with rough guesses, my entire argument is based on them in a way. but if you are using figures, guesses are less convincing.. btw u can just compare them based on a 60 armor target and apply the 20% to that and come out with some situational numbers.. but thats not very helpful imo

well u can generalize ae damage into two categories... 1) flat out kill, either before monks can react or rendering them unable in the process and 2) withering ae damage for taking a toll over time on monk energy.. obviously good in combination with energy denial. thats why i highly recommend debilitating if u bring barrage

barrage falls under 2 no matter what you do with it.. my point is its a great skill to contribute to ae, but its best left to ele to do direct damage ae. basically, u bring barrage, tiger's fury, have 6 open slots for other situations where ae is not so effective or w/e else, but when ae would be useful, u can contribute decently also. that is the strength of barrage

barrage is at least 2.33.... seconds because a normal attack with the fastest bow is 2 seconds. with tiger's fury on that goes down to 1.33.... seconds, and barrage has a 1 second recycle (applied after the shot is fired), allowing you to barrage at intervals of 2.33... seconds (since it will be another 1.33 till you actually fire it the second time)

also note that if u do so u negate the majority of 1 normal attack by using barrage as soon as the recycle is done, since u start a new attack while barrage is under recycle, so 1 second of a 1.33 second attack is cancelled when u barrage again.. depending if there is more than 1 target, this may or may not be worth it

lastly, ae will always be conditional in the sense that you need a group of enemies close enough together to hit them all with damage. the challenge is to either make them stay together or to devastate them enough while they are together that it was worth the resources to bring ae in the first place

a good way to keep them together is ae knockdown skills, and skills like ward of foes to a lesser extent.. obviously a ranger can't do this by himself, and that is a big reason why ele is necessary for many effective ae based strategies, and why ranger is better at simply contributing than being the ae force

oh and also, 14 expertise can go a long way with the use of tiger's fury, as well as other 10 energy skills such as penetrating attack, debilitating shot, etc

it saves a lot of energy in those cases, which are quite often since they are such great skills

also if u are in tombs, u should use 3 superiors (expertise, marks, and vigor), minor beastmastery, minor wilderness.. it helps tremendously and doesn't affect rangers much since they have 70 armor as well as 30 elemental resist on their armor.. not to mention hardly anyone targets rangers unless the team the ranger is on lost already

Z

tmtracy · Jun 17, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Everous

I'm looking for a ranger that can spam barrage. Just Barrage, pure barrage user, basically I'm looking for something that can take over an Ele in the department of AoE nuking.

At first I started thinking ranger/mo with judge's insight, barrage, tiger's fury and favorable winds. This way he can keep the zealous string, would need less expertise to get along, and do awesome damage in 1 go. But...this didn't work out on the builder, I had to put points into Expertise, Beast Mastery, Marksmanship and Smiting.

...Looked at the possibility of using a ranger with conjure...that was even worse. All the problems and none of the advantages.

So, I think I'm gonna have to come to some sort of settlement on this one. First of all:

Is having Tiger's Fury on permenantly worth it? I'm investing 10 points into beastmastery for this one skill...how much in terms of damage does it actually increase. I know it means 50% more damage for normal attacks, but...how does that work when you're spamming barrage? I'm having trouble getting my head round this one. Can we simply assume that if its on half the time its 25% more damage? If so then I think we'd be better off dropping it altogether and shoveling the points into our other skills.

Is Judge's Insight worth it? The thing costs 10 energy to recast should the enchantment be removed, and it really dosen't last very long anyway. How much of a boost in damage does it give anyway? Is it more or less than a conjure?

I just want to say that 8 + 1 is enough for tiger fury, unless you want a 10 second fury, then do 8 + 3 but I dont think its worth it. =) just do 8 + 1

Falconer · Jun 17, 2005, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Epinephrine has the right of it... For a nature ritual/barrage type build... I typically only do 13 expertise, even with tiger's fury.... For a skill I'm only using once every 10s the difference between 5 and 4 energy is minimal... especially when by and large my entire skill bar is 2 energy skills.. and I guarantee I have a zealous as well as +5 vampiric bow to barrage with to alternatively augment energy regen, or augment damage if my energy is riding high.

Those points spent on 9->10 point attribute are better spent augmenting your elemental line and upping your conjure damage, or upping your marksmanship for more +dam. It's mostly a matter of taste and experience... how much expertise do you need to be effective... and can those points be spent better elsewhere.

Also people have it right... you can only barrage once every ~2.5s. Even with tiger's fury. If you just spam barrage the button, with a normal halfbow... you'll end up 'double pumping' and breaking the attack animation to fire the next barrage. If you're using tigers fury... you'll be completely wasting the barrage if that's all you do. Really, a long or composite bow is the perfect speed to barrage constantly... you can spam the button without breaking the attack animation. Hornbows do decently also with their slightly slower rate... but they have that 10% armor piercing extra damage also.

If I do bring tiger's fury in a barrage build. It's so that I can get an alternating attack sequence going with a shortbow. EG: barrage, penetrating, barrage, hunters, barrage, penetrating, barrage.. at this point the tigers end... and hunters is roughly ready again. The point is every other attack is an AoE barrage, and my designated target is taking damage ranger type dedicated damage.

Also. as a barrage ranger... in a team... it's FAR FAR better to have someone else cast JI on you rather than doing it yourself. JI doesn't last long enough, and at 10 energy (short of a zealous string and decent AoE) is hard to keep going. JI at 15s is effectively a 10 energy prep which you don't get an expertise bonus on.

Also wherever people get this figure of 50% better damage for using tigers. They're on crack... it's a 33% attack speed increase so if nothing else changes (let alone your bow attacks don't recycle faster even though you're attacking faster) and most people only spec it enough to get 7 or 8 seconds out of 10... it normally ends up only being a 25% damage increase.

Also the final bit is that a barrage ranger is something I like to joking refer to as a 'full-time firestorm'. Yes elementalists can do more faster... but they can't do it CONSTANTLY and INDEFINATELY. A barrage ranger is a stresser element in a team gameplan... EG: to keep doing moderately high sustained damage which someone has to deal with.

The skill stands well on it's own as well... I'd definately consider barrage in any ranger build where I didn't already have an elite and wasn't using preperations... +12 to 15 damage for 5 energy base cost on a 1s fast recycle... I'm all there... especially since it's AoE... build depending I'll take it over punishing shot for sure. Non-buffed your barrages should be in the 40-50 damage regime every 2 to 2.5s sustained... compare to 22 damage every second from a firestorm or maelstrom which can't move as the target moves.

JYX · Jun 17, 2005, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Also wherever people get this figure of 50% better damage for using tigers. They're on crack... it's a 33% attack speed increase so if nothing else changes (let alone your bow attacks don't recycle faster even though you're attacking faster) and most people only spec it enough to get 7 or 8 seconds out of 10... it normally ends up only being a 25% damage increase.

I was under the impression that the 33% faster attack speed applied to the actual attack animation, not the frequency of the attacks, in the case of something like Frenzy it means 33% faster attack translated into 50% more damage.

Jun 17, 2005, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Yea it's the attack animation, not the frequency.

Falconer also hit a good point: Dont make a R/Mo for JI. Let someone else cast the JI on you while you go R/E and boost your DPS with a Conjure X. Barrage also gets the benefit of triggering multiple cases of hexes that trigger on physical damage.

Also, the Ranger does have imo the best set of elites in the game(Mesmers and Monks come next) and they can pretty much plug and play elites or build around them at a whim. Barrage/Melandru's Arrows(insanely good)/Incendiary Arrows/Punishing Shot/Poison Arrow(breaks condition removal)/Melandru's Resilience are the best Ranger elites. The "worst" out of these is PS which is still better than what some other classes get.

edited to put in PA

Green_Lantern · Jun 17, 2005, 09:28 AM // 09:28

well, tigers fury or frenzy with barrage sounds really nice - there's a problem however, if you're using a shortbow, you will shoot faster than barrage regenerates. So it will basicaly be Barrage + Normal shot + Barrage, all the time. So if youre going with this, use a slower bow. Or take a shortbow and spare the pts in beast mastery.

Falconer · Jun 17, 2005, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Falconer also hit a good point: Dont make a R/Mo for JI. Let someone else cast the JI on you while you go R/E and boost your DPS with a Conjure X. Barrage also gets the benefit of triggering multiple cases of hexes that trigger on physical damage.

No my point on the 33% attack speed increase is that with the attack rate increased and it's typical 70% utilization time if you use it religiously.... In normal usage it seems the boost is roughly 25% IN PRACTICE. Or they don't have enough skill attacks to handle the faster attack rate... so what would be entirley skill attacks without tigers end up having a few normal shots in the mix.

The other bit won't work at all. JI requires physical damage... you can't pair it with a conjure. And similarly it won't trigger something like mark of pain if it's holy damage (which would be some sick AoE damage if you could trigger all 3 at once). In fact, I've noticed that conflagration will short circuit judges insight as well. If you do this, just bring more skill attacks and find other skills to up your damage. Best thing you can do is just pump out damage best you can in a +damage format (so that the bonus damage gets added and also get the JI bonus, something like kindle or ignite won't get any benefit from JI).