Curse

MiniRam · Jun 17, 2005, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

No, you are wrong. I am correct and in agreement with that table. I said 11% and 18.9%.

the improvement from 50% to 59.5% is 59.5/50 = 19%, which is roughly the 18.9% I quoted. I said that you deal 18.9% more damage, which is in fact the case, as you deal 1.189207115 times the damage.

I don't mind being corrected if wrong, but verify your facts before deciding that someone is mistaken and publicly labelling them so.

Thanks for correcting me! Boy was I wrong! Now it is getting interesting.

MiniRam

KuTeBaka · Jun 17, 2005, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskel

Read this: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

The apologize to the OP.

Quote:

Originally Published by Ensign on January 14, 2005

read that, then appologize to everyone else.

Epinephrine · Jun 17, 2005, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniRam

Thanks for correcting me! Boy was I wrong! Now it is getting interesting.

MiniRam

My pleasure - sorry if I get touchy, but after botthering to type all that it gets irksome to be told that it's wrong

Yes, it is interesting, it's also neat that it's multiplicative - since the 20% from Judges Insight adds to the 15% from 15 Strength you get 35%, which bumps damage by 83.4% vs a warriors 100AL; applying the two multipliers separately gives the same total; 2^35/40 = 2^20/40 * 2^15/40. Have fun with it

Yukito Kunisaki · Jun 17, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Whoa, well done. I thought that str. affected weapon max dmg %, not lowered enemy AL... Whoa, misread and misunderstood I was...

So by increasing str, your enemy's AL is lowered?

Necro · Jun 17, 2005, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Strength is to warriors as Expertise is to Rangers...
I have 8 points in str. cause I can't afford to add any more but it adds +30 hp to my max due to my beloved shield ^_^

You've got me wondering now...because the only reason I also have strength pumped is because of my shield....Except that my shield adds a whopping 45 health....a figure I have not seen on any other weapon or shield. So now im thinking what is the max health boost a person can get from a hilt, or shield attribute?

Also, after hearing some posts about 200 dmg with max swords (and having a wicked max sword to test out), Could any of you knowledgable fellow warriors tell me how exactly the attribute point system works IF I wanted to decrease my Axe Skill from 12 to 0 and pump my sword skill from 0-12. I would like to know how many points I would lose....the in game explanation isn't quite clear.

And lets say that I wanted to also try out a nice max dmg hammer afterwards. Will it deduct even more points?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...+stat+po ints

ok i just searched and found this explanation about stat points. So that means that if i lowered my axe skill from 12-0 I would lose 12 points, BUT I would be able to get all of the points back if i gain 3000 exp?

And I guess the penalty is constant so, everytime I downgrade an attribute I would lose 1 point.....Annoying but otherwise understandable....

Edit #2 - Also sorry about going way off topic, but it seems the answer about the usefullness of strength as a skill had been answered....so I threw in some stat related questions just to spice things up another notch.

Falconer · Jun 17, 2005, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniRam

Strength seems to be applicable for armor penetration. However, it is ludicrously small. For every point of strength you get +1% armor penetration. Right now I am running a sword hilt that gives me +10% armor penetration

Now you also need to get this right... it doesn't give you flat 10% AP. It gives you a 10% chance to get 10% AP.

Translation statistically over time it's a whopping 1% AP! Practically worthless.

The sundering mod is one of the worst out there.

As far as why the mulitplicative and additive works that way it's because we're dealing in a log based armor system. And is a normal feature of this frame of reference.

Strength is a very usefull because it's a passive damage buff that's always there. You don't need to do anything to exploit it except spend the points. It's a great attribute to simply dump your extra points into and get 6-8 ranks.

The reason is was reduced was because it used to be 2% AP added to any skill attack only. EG: 10 ranks meant you got 20% AP whenever you used galrath, or cyclone, but normal attacks wouldn't benefit. It was changed to 1% because it now applies to all attacks skill or no skill.

Howling Wind · Jun 18, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

I agree about the sundering mod, at first when I heard about it I was looking forward to one until I realized it only activated once in a while with a max chance of 10%, thats like 1 in 10 attacks have 10% armour penetration on average, really poor, same goes with the furious hilt, its still quite decent but would be the best if it was passive or had a much higher chance (maybe like upto 50%).

Anyway I think i'd prefer to see the AP bonus go back up to 2% and have it only affect attack skills, I prefer that instead or make it 1.5% and have it affect all normal attacks and skills. I still prefer the 2% AP feature it originally had.

Theus · Jun 18, 2005, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Strength lvl 10+ + Judges insight = 30+% armor penetration.

Thats pretty badass right there. Not to mention it doesnt have a chance to happen.

Ishamael Sedai · Jun 18, 2005, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniRam

I know. But, how is it good to waste attribute points on Strength when you can get that armor penetration from something else like a sword hilt? Furthermore, how is 10% armor penetration that impressive? For example, let's say that I normally hit for 35 damage. If I have 10% armor penetration what does that do to the damage? According to the formula above ... nothing. My guess is something to do with 1/10 of the 'hit' translates into full damage. That just doesn't seem like a lot to me. Is it?

MiniRam

Well I have only read down to here so maybe someone answered this but you have only looked at one part (or mini formula) of the whole dmg formula. You need to look at the article where it talks about armor levels affect on dmg.

Ishamael Sedai · Jun 18, 2005, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniRam

So, what it ends up looking like is that if you have a strength of 10 then you are dealing about ~+10% more damage. I rounded off a little. But, generally speaking. We're talking about ~+10% more damage for a strength of 10. So if I hit for 50 damage normally ... now I am hitting for 55 damage. Ummm .... is it just me or does that sound like not a lot of difference considering you just dumped a crapload of attribute points into Strength?

If I dump those attribute points into my Necro then I can get some huge damage bonuses with Putrid Explosion. A lot more than 5 points.

MiniRam

I wouldn't argue with what your saying, but a true warrior needs to be continously putting pressure and pounding on the monks. Not that other versions of a warrior are not important, but this also is. I play mostly as a warrior but when I play as a pvp monk a lot of times warriors alone aren't bad and high dmg spells alone aren't bad, but combined it can get nasty. Warriors ruin my spamming reversal of fortunes.

Deathlord · Jun 18, 2005, 03:09 AM // 03:09

The topic title is a very brief statement that is simply not true. Warrior's have dozens of builds alone. Combined with secondary classes, they have possibly hundreds (Not all of them are effective though). Just because you as a person use a sword and find there's no reason to use strength, doesn't justify it as a useless skill. You might enjoy your final thrust combo doing maybe 150 dmg every 10 seconds, but a person in melee might want to do more using an Axe + Strength combo, therefore, it's not useless.

Let's see how strength supports the skill/weapon areas.

>Swordmanship: Offensive +damage skills- Gash, Final Thrust, and Galrath Slash
>Axe Mastery: Damaging Skill Set- Axe Rake, Axe Twist, Cleave, Penetrating Blow, and Executioners axe.

First off, let me explain that the Swordmanship set will not be able to benefit as much from strength because
1. It has very little offensive skills
2. Final thrust drains all adrenline, meaning spamming capabillities are very limited
Therefore, swordmanship won't be able to reap the +8 or +10% armor penetrating per hit as often as a axe person spamming all those skills.

- Reply to Mini-ram's posts> Okay, strength only effects skills. Therefore we'll need to set an example of spammable offensive skills to see its bonus.
Spammable offensive skills> Cleave (4 Adren. +25 dmg) + Penetrating blow (% Adren. +20 damage, +20% armor penetration)

Okay, if a person can do an average of 40 to a spellcaster, then cleave would mean 65 damage + the 8% armor penetration, adding a grand total of 5.2 attack to the cleave skill. Then you use penetrating blow at 20 damage with an additional +20% armor penetration (28% total), you get 72 damage + 5.76 damage.
Since about 50% of your attacks will be skills and the other half will be regulars, you'd be losing a total of 10.96 damage every other time you attack. That 11ish damage can definetly help considering raising a skill from 0 to 8 only costs 37 attribute points.

kaos · Jun 18, 2005, 04:15 AM // 04:15

OMG! No wonder I suck at this game, well PvP. I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just going by feel and thats not the way to play these types of games apparently. You really need to understand the mechanics to be succesful. At least in PvP anyway.

Entropius · Jun 18, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaos

OMG! No wonder I suck at this game, well PvP. I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm just going by feel and thats not the way to play these types of games apparently. You really need to understand the mechanics to be succesful. At least in PvP anyway.

Some other people have explained this, but with lots of numbers. Not everyone can read equations, so here's a simple translation for those who don't have a strong maths background.

***

Every 40 points of armor level makes a difference of a factor of two. Increasing your armor level by 40 (whether from 20 to 60 or from 60 to 100) will halve the damage you take.

For PVP purposes, the "listed" damage of a skill is against Armor Level 60. As an example, we can make a table for a skill that says it does 20 damage:

Armor Level Damage Taken
20 40
60 20
100 10

What about an Armor Level of, say, 40? Well, it's going to do more than the listed damage, but how much more? It turns out that it's the square root of 2, or 141%. There's another thing to remember: a difference of 20 points in AL makes you take 41% more, or 29% less, damage.

In general, the formula to see how much a change in AL changes damage is:

Final Damage = Initial Damage * 2 ^ (-ALC/40)

where ALC is the change in Armor Level.

Now, how does this apply to armor penetration skills, like Air Magic?

A skill with armor penetration reduces an opponent's armor level by a certain percentage. For instance, Air Magic skills with penetration 25% will knock a 25% off of an opponent's armor level for that attack. Someone with AL 60 will have an effective AL of 45; someone with AL 100 will have an effective AL of 75. Important: Since a fixed change in AL changes damage by the same percentage, these penetration skills actually increase damage by a higher percentage against more heavily armored targets.

Let's look at some numbers, then. Against an AL 100 target the penetration will reduce his armor level by 25, so we get 2 ^ (25/40) = 154% as much damage.

Against an AL 60 target the penetration only drops her AL by 15, so we get 2 ^ (15/40) = 130% as much damage.

Next, let's assume that we have a 50 damage Lightning Orb and a 50 damage Fireball (or whatever), and use them against our hypothetical AL 60 and AL 100 targets.

Against the AL 60 target, the Fireball just does its 50 damage.
Against the AL 60 target, the Orb does 50*130% = 65 damage.

Against the AL 100 target, the Fireball does half, or 25 damage.
Against the AL 100 target, the Orb does 25*154%= 38 damage.

A few other interesting game statistics, then:

A Level 12 Armor of Earth gives 53 AL. This corresponds to taking only 40% as much damage as before -- not bad at all!

Obsidian Flame gives 20 AL, or 70% damage.

Armor of Frost makes you take half damage from physical sources, but 151% from fire.

Armor of Mist reduces damage to 55% of normal.

Level 12 Ward vs. Harm reduces fire damage to 42% and other damage to 68%.