Curse

Archaeus · Jul 25, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

After some fun spike moments with my air elementalist in GvG and to unsuspecting monks in the Competition Arenas, I decided I'd take a look at my first character - a R/E - and see if I couldn't pull off something similar.

I tried Conjure + Barrage, using TF and dual shot, but the damage was pitiful vs. single targets. One of my guildmates suddenly became rather fond of Quick Shot rangers after seeing them in action at a guild war, so I went out and capped Quick Shot with high expectations (with much effort, I'll admit - Maxine Coldstone is very annoying). I discussed the build with a guildmate, and this is how we put together the QS ranger:

R/X
Expertise: 11+1+1
Marksmanship: 10+2
Wilderness Survival: 10+1

(My guildmate said to use a Horn Bow due to their passive armor penetration, decent range, and the fact that quick shot ignores bow refire rate as well. Can anyone confirm the passive penetration?)

Quick Shot
Kindle/Ignite Arrows
Distracting Shot
Troll Unguent
Frozen Soil / Whirling Defense / Pin Down
Quickening Zephyr
Favorable Winds / Whirling Defense / Pin Down
Res Signet

I tried it out a few times in the Competition Arenas, and my QZ spirit was always owned, ruining my machine-gun firing rate.

Please critique, or post your own QS build. I was thinking of adding in either a Conjure or Mark of Rodgort w/ a flaming string, but that would mean I would have to spread accross 4 attributes...

EDIT:
I capped Punishing Shot earlier today to try a build posted by roselan, and I was quite pleased with its effects, so I decided to try and make a machine-gunner ranger using Punishing Shot instead. From previous experience, I remember Tiger's Fury yielding a positively insane refire rate when used in conjunction with a half-moon/shortbow. This setup would provide a firing rate near that of a QS build (with the downside of having to use a halfmoon/shortbow or flatbow+favorable/RTW), with the same amount of base damage per hit, but without the hassle of maintaining a spirit, putting up with complaints from casters about QZ, and without the hazard of having QS disabled by a mesmer or another ranger. Here's my new setup:

Expertise: 11 + 1 + 2
Marksmanship: 10+1
Wilderness Survival: 8+1
Beast Mastery: 6+1

Punishing Shot {E}
Kindle/Ignite Arrows
Distracting Shot
Tiger's Fury
Whirling Defense
Pin Down*
Troll Unguent
Resurrection Signet

*I keep a bow with a range of at least 80 meters on switch so I can use Pin Down on runners.

Notes:
-With this setup, TF lasts for 8 seconds and has a 10 second recharge (rank 7 in beastmastery is the breakpoint for 8 seconds on TF), while Kindle still adds 16 damage to every shot (as oppossed to the previous 17) and Unguent is now +7, instead of +8.
-With Druid's armor (but -5 energy from my bow, totalling to a 27 mana pool), I only have trouble with mana costs if the fight is prolonged or my energy is drained by a mesmer or ranger. Keeping up with the skills on this bar is not very difficult, since your damage is from Kindle/Ignite and the speed of your _normal_ attacks, instead of spamming a single skill like QS or Barrage slower (but with a higher base damage) and draining your energy more quickly.
-I chose Kindle Arrows over Ignite because it has slightly higher damage, the same cast time and recharge as Ignite but costs 5 less energy to cast. I know that Ignite has a little AoE, sacrificing damage for AoE is for PvE builds, not PvP.

Advantages:
-Not too draining on mana
-No enchantments to be stripped
-No vital skills that can be interrupted by a distracting shot, such as Barrage, QS, etc. (TF is the only vital one, and it's an instant-cast stance)
-The preparation has 0 downtime (24 second duration and 12 second recharge), while still adding more damage than, say, a maxed Conjure Element.
-Not reliant on any particular equipment except a shortbow/half moon. Druid's armor helps, but it's not necessary, and you're free to choose the string & grip of your desire.
-Whirling Defense makes you nearly invincible to all projectiles and melee attacks, meaning that Lightning Orbs don't hurt you, that hammer warrior can't touch you, and you're free to cast Troll Unguent to heal yourself up, or pin someone down and run away. I like it because it lasts 19 seconds with Expertise at 14, which is far more than enough time to make your escape and heal up.
-Good damage, great speed, and two interrupts at the ready (Punishing and Distracting Shots. It's SO fun to interrupt nearly every spell an elementalist can throw at me, while still dealing damage).

Disadvantages:
-Wild Blow, however uncommon it is, will remove Tiger's Fury, although this is not a big deal, since TF has a 10 second recharge.
-Using a preparation always leaves you wide open to interruption for a few seconds, but the prep has a long duration and can be cast before battle.
-This build cannot take down a monk easily (but, honestly, who can, other than a spike ele?) due to its damage coming in many small, very fast hits. Although this almost negates the use of many protection spells such as Spell Breaker, Reversal of Fortune, and Protective Spirit, it means they can use the 1-second cast Orison and Healing Touch spells to heal back a fair amount of your damage. They aren't too much of a challenge, I've found, because of your frequent interrupts with Punishing Shot. Any spell that takes 2 seconds or longer to cast is easily Distracted/Punished, due to the immense speed of your attacks and the short recharge of Punishing Shot.

Any + all input on the build is greatly appreciated.

PippinTook · Jul 25, 2005, 10:10 PM // 22:10

If you want a machine gun firing rate you should be using tiger's fury and QZ, or just QZ. when I played a monk QZ annoyed me alot because i ran out of energy too fast.

carnivore · Jul 25, 2005, 10:11 PM // 22:11

i agree that Maxine is a pain in the --- to find and kill

and after trying quick shot i realize that i think it sucks and its worthless...for me to use

i've also seen a quickshot build in the tombs(korea) and a random pvp match. and both times they seemed to be dealing my a good amount of damage really fast.

so my conclusion..takes someone with real smarts and stradegy to pull off the build which i dont like to do so i just go with poison arrow =P

Archaeus · Jul 25, 2005, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by PippinTook

If you want a machine gun firing rate you should be using tiger's fury and QZ, or just QZ. when I played a monk QZ annoyed me alot because i ran out of energy too fast.

Yeah, I just tried this build again in the comp arenas and got cussed out by a mesmer for using QZ.

I have a very nice shortbow (+13% always, -5 energy, max dmg with shocking string) in store, and I'd love to pull it out and use TF for that machine-gun fire rate, but what skills should I use? I'm not set on Quick Shot, BTW - I just want a machine gun rate with a few damage buffs.

Puddin Tame · Jul 26, 2005, 08:07 AM // 08:07

For a bow, I have 6 words for you. Mineral. Springs. five. mountain. trol.l tusks.

Rajamic · Jul 26, 2005, 08:17 AM // 08:17

They really shouldn't be complaining about QZ, but if you want to keep them quiet, bring Energizing Wind as well.

Mind Wallaby · Jul 26, 2005, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puddin Tame

For a bow, I have 6 words for you. Mineral. Springs. five. mountain. trol.l tusks.

Quick Shot fires at the same rate regardless of bow type, so a short bow isn't really the optimal choice, all else being equal. I would use either a Horn Bow (+10%AP) or Composite Bow (lowest miss rate on moving targets).

Quote:

I have a very nice shortbow (+13% always, -5 energy, max dmg with shocking string) in store, and I'd love to pull it out and use TF for that machine-gun fire rate, but what skills should I use? I'm not set on Quick Shot, BTW - I just want a machine gun rate with a few damage buffs.

A Quick Shot build with QZ and TF is by far the closest you will come to a machine gun with your Ranger. It's about 2-2.5 times faster than you can achieve with TF and a short/halfmoon using any other bow attack (besides Distracting and Concussion Shot).

Your bow is quite nice. I would replace the shocking string with a zealous one if you intend to use Quick Shot... you should see a great increase in sustainability (don't expect any miracles, though

). I also noticed that you're missing Tiger's Fury in your original post, which boosts your recycle rate by a further 50% when QZ is active.

Conjure Flame might not be a bad idea since Kindle Arrows converts your bow to fiery damage, freeing the string for a zealous mod. Also, spreading across 4 attributes is not as bad as it sounds since attributes have linear gain but increasing cost. I think you can drop Wilderness Survival by 2 or 3 or levels and gain 6 or 7 levels in Fire, which leaves you with more total damage than before. In practice, though, I don't like Conjure Flame because of its dependency on Kindle and its tendency to run out when you don't have enough energy to cast it.

If you like interruption, consider Practiced Stance + Choking Gas. Choking Gas makes your arrows interrupt on hit, and you can use Tiger's Fury after casting the preparation to increase your rate of fire and nail those Orisons, Healing Touch, and most Ele/Necro/Mesmer skills you will see. You can keep Choking Gas up almost constantly for very effective caster shutdown that can't be evaded.

FeuerFrei · Jul 26, 2005, 09:49 AM // 09:49

How much dmage did you do to single targets using barrage + conjure, TF and dual??? just wondering...also ..does it deal alot of AOE?

Sofia Sofia Sofia · Jul 26, 2005, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Is the horn bow's +10 AP always effective? I mean it is like 10% of the time or what?

eternal_drake · Jul 26, 2005, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sofia Sofia Sofia

Is the horn bow's +10 AP always effective? I mean it is like 10% of the time or what?

It is an always 10% Armor Penetration. Basically, if you shot an arrow at an ele with 60 armor, 10% of that gets shaved off, they now got 54 armor for each arrow from that bow you fire at them.

Archaeus · Jul 26, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mind Wallaby

Quick Shot fires at the same rate regardless of bow type, so a short bow isn't really the optimal choice, all else being equal. I would use either a Horn Bow (+10%AP) or Composite Bow (lowest miss rate on moving targets).

A Quick Shot build with QZ and TF is by far the closest you will come to a machine gun with your Ranger. It's about 2-2.5 times faster than you can achieve with TF and a short/halfmoon using any other bow attack (besides Distracting and Concussion Shot).

Your bow is quite nice. I would replace the shocking string with a zealous one if you intend to use Quick Shot... you should see a great increase in sustainability (don't expect any miracles, though

). I also noticed that you're missing Tiger's Fury in your original post, which boosts your recycle rate by a further 50% when QZ is active.

Wait... I heard somewhere that with QZ, Quick Shot becomes a 1/2 second recharge, which rounds down (?) to give a 0 second recharge. This would mean that you can shoot QS's as fast as your bow allows, so adding TF would make you shoot QS faster.... but I thought QS was unaffected by refire rate (which TF speeds up)?

I have two bows at the ready (my +13% shortbow and a max horn bow), but I can't decide which one to add a Zealous string to. The shortbow has the dmg mod, but the horn bow has armor penetration and a longer range. Lest I run out of mana, the shortbow will shoot faster without QS than the horn bow will.

I saw a QS ranger yesterday take out my team's monk in ~4 seconds. I was watching him shoot and I nearly cried

I have never been able to shoot as fast as he was, but then again I didn't think TF made a difference with my bow's firing rate while I was spamming WS. I'm going to go try out TF+QZ+QS right now. Thanks for the input.

If that doesn't pan out, I'm going to cap Practiced Stance and try out PS+gas using TF, kindle, and a shortbow, mainly for anti-monk support.

cdepue79 · Jul 26, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

FOr bow why get max horn bow with 15% damage while health above 50% or while enchanted if you use conjure element. Put zealous string on it and you'll do more damage than shortbow and have better range. U can get that hornbow (ascalon) right outside of copperhead mines i think.

Mind Wallaby · Jul 27, 2005, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archaeus

Wait... I heard somewhere that with QZ, Quick Shot becomes a 1/2 second recharge, which rounds down (?) to give a 0 second recharge. This would mean that you can shoot QS's as fast as your bow allows, so adding TF would make you shoot QS faster.... but I thought QS was unaffected by refire rate (which TF speeds up)?

Yup, you have the right idea. The reason TF (and Frenzy and Flurry) helps Quick Shot is as follows:
1) A normal bow attack has two parts, the wind-up (before the shot) and recharge (recovering from the shot).
2) All bows actually have the same wind-up time. Differences in rate of fire come from longer or shorter recharges.
3) Quick Shot effectively ignores the recharge portion of the attack. You can fire Quick Shot while you're still recovering from another attack (for example, try doing a Penetrating Shot -> Quick Shot right after).

This is why Quick Shot has the same speed regardless of what bow you're using. However, since Tiger's Fury decreases the wind-up time, it speeds up Quick Shot too.

Quote:

I have two bows at the ready (my +13% shortbow and a max horn bow), but I can't decide which one to add a Zealous string to. The shortbow has the dmg mod, but the horn bow has armor penetration and a longer range. Lest I run out of mana, the shortbow will shoot faster without QS than the horn bow will.

I would go with the shortbow, then. Against a 60AL target, 10% AP is roughly equivalent to 7% more damage. The shortbow also misses a little less (not a significant factor if you're using Favorable Winds).

Quote:

If that doesn't pan out, I'm going to cap Practiced Stance and try out PS+gas using TF, kindle, and a shortbow, mainly for anti-monk support.

Kindle doesn't really work well with Choking Gas since they're both preparations and preparations don't stack. I've been using the Practiced Stance + Choking Gas combo with TF and a shortbow the past few days, and it's a lot of fun shutting down casters completely (in a wholly different way from Quick Shot

). Since this combo doesn't require many skill slots, I'd recommend bringing some other useful skills to help your team. Choking Gas is pretty much the only anti-caster you need but it requires your full attention to the target, so I'd try a fire-and-forget anti-warrior skill like Sympathetic Visage, which has proven useful for me in arena.

Mind Wallaby · Jul 27, 2005, 03:02 AM // 03:02

On second thought... why not combine Quick Shot and interruption? A hybrid build, something like:

R/Mo
Quick Shot
Judge's Insight
Pin Down
Distracting Shot
Tiger's Fury
Choking Gas
Quickening Zephyr
Res Sig

Choking Gas recharges in 12s with QZ, so you can probably keep it up around 60-75% of the time. Something to consider? You'll be able to nail pretty much any spell the target tries...

cdepue79 · Jul 27, 2005, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Not a bad idea, never thought of something like that but i don't like the fact you'd be casting Tigers fury,Chocking gas, and Judges insight a lot. hmm, but with Conj element you'd need elemental string so you can't use a zealous. With grip of enchanting that would add like 3 seconds to JI. What u think about Melandrus/JI/Tiger fury/Quickshot?

Enigmatics · Jul 27, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

The speed of bows do in fact affect how quick shot is used. 2.4 seconds halved is 1.2, while 1.8 seconds halved is 0.9 seconds. Think about it.

OneArmedScissor · Jul 27, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

First of all, let me say Horn Bows are god awful. Why on earth would anyone want to use a bow that is slow as christmas?
Short bows (half-moons, eternal, etc.) are clearly better simply because they can fill your target up with more arrows a hell of a lot faster than a horn bow.
Granted, Horn Bows *supposibly* have a 10% armor penetration bonus, but who cares when you're shooting at an extremely low rate of fire?

When a warrior is up in your grill beating you with a sword, a short bow is by far the best bow to use because it can shoot arrows a hell of a lot faster than any horn bow can.

cdepue79 · Jul 27, 2005, 10:22 PM // 22:22

IF what many ppl have heard Horn bows aren't god awful, they are much better than shortbow for a QS build. Like I previously said, more range and damage than a shortbow. But for builds that don't use TF and QZ a shortbow would be better since those builds alternate other attacks before quickshot.

Mind Wallaby · Jul 28, 2005, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigmatics

The speed of bows do in fact affect how quick shot is used. 2.4 seconds halved is 1.2, while 1.8 seconds halved is 0.9 seconds. Think about it.

No they don't, see the link I posted earlier ("right idea") for some experimental results.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneArmedScissor

Why on earth would anyone want to use a bow that is slow as christmas?

Because horn bows are as fast as shortbows are as fast as longbows are as fast as composite bows under Quick Shot.