Curse

Tuna · Jul 04, 2005, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Thirdly, the enormous pretense that warriors are ignored. I know people out there are JUST saying it so noobs won't pick warriors. Go ahead, ignore the dude who can deal 130 dmg in a single strike to your spine... I'll make a screenie later if anyone demands this to be seen to be believed.

This is because most warriors are condition spamming sword-weilding sissys

Untill that changes warriors will be ignored. Damage from an axe hit probably tops out somewhere around 170-180. (buffed perf critical executioners strike)

edit:

Quote:

judge insight
partner weaken armor

judges insight is holy dmg and weaken only works on phys.

Also, swords have crappy damage skills and elites whereas axes have 2 equally good elites and a slew of good skills. Hammer, however, takes the take away from both of them. Combined.

pearhk · Jul 04, 2005, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Too much clearly BIASED information here
newcomers pls dun affected by these information, choose the weapon what u think its cool and good for urself

Guys here are mostly axe warriors,
In their eyes, there are only Pros of AXE and Cons of Sword

e.g. **Evsicrate do 150 dmg
is this skill do 150 dmg every hit ?

**They never talk about bleeding.
Yes, it is 6 more dmg per sec(dps),
of coz, axe wielder can say bleeding sucks, axe skill are FAR FAR better, blah* blah*

**Never consider Adrenline problem
and then they dare to say Energy based Sword skill suck, never think of the importance of Balanced Consumption (energy and adrenline)

Again,
newcomers pls dun affected by these information, choose the weapon what u think its cool and good for urself

PieXags · Jul 04, 2005, 08:14 AM // 08:14

I'll just say this.

If I see a warrior running up to me in PvP with a sword or an axe, I hold my ground, switch target, and usually kill him/her depending on the situation, lets just say I can hold my ground.

If I see a hammer warrior running up to me.

I haul ass.

It hurts more, I get knocked down constantly, and often times just get really screwed up. Sword or axe? Pfft, big deal, unless you've got the build to back that thing up I'm not shaking. Hammer? Damn you...

Enigmatics · Jul 04, 2005, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by pearhk

Too much clearly BIASED information here
newcomers pls dun affected by these information, choose the weapon what u think its cool and good for urself

Guys here are mostly axe warriors,
In their eyes, there are only Pros of AXE and Cons of Sword

e.g. **Evsicrate do 150 dmg
is this skill do 150 dmg every hit ?

**They never talk about bleeding.
Yes, it is 6 more dmg per sec(dps),
of coz, axe wielder can say bleeding sucks, axe skill are FAR FAR better, blah* blah*

**Never consider Adrenline problem
and then they dare to say Energy based Sword skill suck, never think of the importance of Balanced Consumption (energy and adrenline)

Again,
newcomers pls dun affected by these information, choose the weapon what u think its cool and good for urself

Newcomers, of course, are free to experiment with the builds they like. And they will; by no means am I peddling the use of axes to the population of guild wars, I'm saying that axes do more damage then swords without much effort.

Eviscerate doesn't do 150 damage every hit. Neither does final thrust. WHILE final thrust has a 10 adrenaline cost and you lose all adrenaline, but eviscerate is a 7 adrenaline cost, and also gives deep wound. Oh and eviscerate followed by executioners equals 300 damage. Need I say spike any more?

Bleeding, degen of 1. Dealt with by mend ailment, so you'll deal around 4 damage by the time a warrior reacts.

As for energy costs, you should look up ViM. In conjunction with plague touch and axe condition adders, you can easily gain 25 energy back in a few seconds.

aknox · Jul 04, 2005, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigmatics

As for energy costs, you should look up ViM. In conjunction with plague touch and axe condition adders, you can easily gain 25 energy back in a few seconds.

Ummm... i don't mean to butt in or nething but u can give as much conditions with a swords

Enigmatics · Jul 04, 2005, 01:52 PM // 13:52

You can indeed. You can also do more damage with an axe, as well as pile on the conditions.

pearhk · Jul 05, 2005, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigmatics

Eviscerate doesn't do 150 damage every hit. Neither does final thrust. WHILE final thrust has a 10 adrenaline cost and you lose all adrenaline, but eviscerate is a 7 adrenaline cost, and also gives deep wound. Oh and eviscerate followed by executioners equals 300 damage. Need I say spike any more?

150 dmg = Deep Wound + extra dmg, u mentioned twice
and only if the target has 500+ health

Eviscerate + Exe Strike
why 300 dmg ? Deep Wound dun stack, rite ?
and executioner strike dun give deep wound,
confused here, as i am not axe user

Quote:

Bleeding, degen of 1. Dealt with by mend ailment, so you'll deal around 4 damage by the time a warrior reacts.

it is degen of 3,
so u think swordsman only deals with W/Mo like u ?
i am a W/N, i can say, "eviscerate deep wound, - health of 20%, dealt with plague signet, u will deal only 30 dmg by the time a W/N react."

pls consider general case,
and dun apply so much other conditions only when talking about sword

Quote:

As for energy costs, you should look up ViM. In conjunction with plague touch and axe condition adders, you can easily gain 25 energy back in a few seconds.

so do sword, what do u want to say in this passage ?

================================================== ============================
just a discussion, not flamming
be rational all

ICURADik · Jul 05, 2005, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by pearhk

150 dmg = Deep Wound + extra dmg, u mentioned twice
and only if the target has 500+ health

Eviscerate + Exe Strike
why 300 dmg ? Deep Wound dun stack, rite ?
and executioner strike dun give deep wound,
confused here, as i am not axe user

Level 16 Eviserate is +32 damage. Along with axe damage(around 30-40)
Executioner's Strike add's 42 along with normal damage(30-40). Then add in another 100 from deep wound. That's about 240 total. If you happen to get a crit it will be much more.

Tuna · Jul 05, 2005, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Level 16 Eviserate is +32 damage. Along with axe damage(around 30-40)
Executioner's Strike add's 42 along with normal damage(30-40). Then add in another 100 from deep wound. That's about 240 total. If you happen to get a crit it will be much more.

Lets say our proposed target has 500 health. Eviscerate does +32 and deep wound (20% max) To save time with forumals lets say the overal damage done is 120 vs a 60al target. This is a pretty average amount for a critical hit + skill. Now deep wound lowers max hp by 20%, which in this case is 100. Unfortunatley, the Eviscerate hits for more than 100 rendering the deep wound useless. I'm quite sure the damage hits before the deep wound. However, even if it doesn't the hits taken to charge up eviscerate will be more than 100hp anyway.

Enigmatics · Jul 05, 2005, 01:09 PM // 13:09

A level 16 eviscerate gives 42 damage, as well as deep wound. If you take that into account you're saving 15 strikes of adrenaline by combining executioners strike and dismember. A critical eviscerate is 200+ versus casters. Even if you choose not to use it, cleave+penetrating blow will have more dot and will outdamage final thrust if you spam them. And they don't take up all your adrenaline. Read up on deep wound please, it takes 20% off *max* health, reguardless of current health. I did make an error with executioners strike, you'll usually hit around 100 on casters. All of this put aside, the average damage per minute of an axe is greater then that of a sword. If you want some charts i'll direct you to a topic made by ensign.

IndyCC · Jul 05, 2005, 01:55 PM // 13:55

You said you would direct us. So where exactly is the charts that he made. My calculations show the following, which minus skills say sword is higher dps

Item - Avg Dmg/Sec
Sword - 13.9
Axe - 12.8
Hammer - 15.4

So I would like to see the calculations/charts that you refer to, where are they located?
Thx

UberRusty · Jul 05, 2005, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Okay, going to try to make it simple for those non-Math heads out there. Purely Math, no Lady Luck is helping us on this one.

Sword = 15 - 22 (Avg. damage 18.5)
Axe = 6 - 28 (Avg. damge 17)

Let's base this on 10 HITS. Which means roughly 1.3 x 10, which means 13 SECONDS. Now, let's do the base dasmage.

Sword: 18.5 x 10 = 185
Axe: 17 x 10 = 170

Now we're going to PRETEND we have 13 Swordsmanship which means the MAX indicated damage on most skill lists. And LET'S PRETEND our target has 500 Health.

Let's say you had the usual setup for a sword.

Sever Artery (causes bleeding, meaning -6hp/sec)

Gash (+9 dmg, causes deepwound, meaning -20% less health, which means 109 dmg)

Galrath Slash (+32 dmg)

Final Thrust (We use this when he's below 50% health, 64 dmg)

Let's say you had a MORE damaging setup for the axe.

Cyclone Axe (+10 dmg)

Penetrating Blow (+17 dmg)

Cleave [E] (+22 dmg)

Executioner's Strike (+34 dmg)

TEN HITS MEANS YOU HAVE ENOUGH ALDRENILE FOR EVERY SKILL. So, let's do the Math!

Sword:

4 Hits to build enough aldrenile for Sever Artery. Which means 4 x 1.3 = 5.2 seconds. So we take 5.2 seconds away from 13 seconds.

13 - 5.2 = 7.8 seconds.

Now since Sever Artery causes BLEEDING, which means -6hp/sec, we'll times 7.8 seconds with 6, giving the overall damage for bleeding.

7.8 x 6 = 46.8

Now, since that was the only part that needed working out, we'll add all the damage together.

SWORD:

185 (BASE DAMAGE)
47 (BLEEDING DAMAGE, ROUNDED TO NEAREST FULL NUMBER)
109 (GASH)
32 (GALRATH SLASH)
64 (FINAL THRUST)

394 DAMAGE.

Now for the Axe department, we can use Penetrating Blow AND Cleave TWICE.

So let's do some more math.

AXE:

170 (BASE DAMAGE)
10 (CYCLONE AXE)
34 (PENETRATING BLOW x 2)
44 (CLEAVE x 2)
34 (EXECUTIONER'S STRIKE)

292 DAMAGE.

Thankyou for your time (and my time for spending 5 minutes writing this post, you better read through it another time before you attempt to wrong me)

Rusty.

Yukito Kunisaki · Jul 05, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Well UberRusty. That's a very logical post ya got and you have my salute...

However, as an addition to that, why not use other elite skills? Is it for 'balancing' purposes? I don't think that's a fair way to determine weapon damage. Cleave is one, but what's the sword elite dmg dealer? [wait, there isn't one] There's also Eviscerate, but if you were intending to ignore all that...

Are we going to take into account critical hits? It's written that 20% crit comes with a 12 weapon mastery attribute. So at least 2 of the 10 swings you are dealing will be critical hits.

If we were to just make base assumptions on what's going to critical, then we can easily rule out that Final Thrust can Critical Twice. However, to see Penetrating Blow or worse, Cleave, deal crits to a running caster 2x. That has to amount to something I'm hoping.

Logically speaking, that damage is true, but to use real game mechanics added to the damage, such as critical hits, the damage starts to flip-flop.

Galrath + Final Thrust might both crit... true...
Cleave might 2x crit... Or Cleave with Executioner's... also true...

I also would not like to use a full bleed as part of damage since it's DoT but I guess it all adds up in the end...

Still, this is an excellent defense in terms of why people should use a sword. Well thought out...

Reiden Argrock · Jul 05, 2005, 05:06 PM // 17:06

If you are intersted in sword, don't look at direct damage, consider your secondary class and utilize the increased attack speed of sword. By utiling Dot's with your sword's fast attack speed, even if something only lasts a few seconds, guarunteed you'll be hiting again before that timer is up, and so you will in fact be doing consistant damage over time.
However, my warrior is a different build than what is mentioned here and so I use axe for that.
Weapon type really just depends on what you want to do, look at your skills and work out a build, then find which weapon will work the best with your build. Don't base your build off of your weapon, it should be weapon off of your build.

free4all · Jul 05, 2005, 05:14 PM // 17:14

You're forgetting deep wound skills with the axe...that's what unbalancing your data.

rii · Jul 05, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Your forgetting the spammability of condition removal. Deep wounds, weakness, blind are the first to go, then poison and bleed etc. Most conditions arent on for more than 4 seconds, unless you stack the hell out of em. In which case, use mend ailment and shafted.

i know yukito doesnt like talking about counters, but in this case this isnt 'OMG THERES THIS ONE ONLY SKILL THAT NERFS YOUR BUILD LOL', its just condition removal just is, in italics. All teams have it and all teams spam it.

Solais · Jul 05, 2005, 05:30 PM // 17:30

I have a question, let's say you deep wound someone whose max is 500 HP. I get that this drops them 20% to 400 HP. Now, if you deep wound them again during this period does the effect take place at 400 HP if the time hasn't ran out yet, dropping their max to 320 for the purposes of a combo or no?

arnansnow · Jul 05, 2005, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Deep Wounds does not stack with itself, so it would stay at 400 until deep wounds wore off.

Solais · Jul 05, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

So taking Rusty's test scenario...

170 (base damage)
16 (per swift chop on hit)
124 (eviscerate) (3 swings after Sever Artery)
34 (penetrating blow x 2) (2 swings after Gash, 1 swing before Galrath Slash)
34 (executioner's strike) (3 swings before Final Thrust)
378

Versus Rusty's sword setup it'd be 378 (axe) 394 (sword). Even without the DoT you could surpass Rusty's numbers with an Axe just by throwing in two more Swift Chops. So with three swift chops it'd be something like 410 versus 394. Also, the two armor penetrating attacks would deal a bit more damage. That brings up the axe's base average damage.

Also, if Cyclone Axe were hitting multiple people... it's more screwed. I switched to Swift Chop because I was assuming these numbers were one on one within the radius of parties involved.

Let me know if there is something I need to fix, was trying to use close to the same amount of adrenaline as Rusty's setup... ended up 25 (axe) to 29 (sword).

Lord Malikai · Jul 05, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Warriors Endurance plays a big part of a swordsmans build. Forget all the aderenaline skills except for Final Thrust. You can spam all your energy skills, including Hamstring. There won't be a time where you are waiting for adren or energy to do a skill, every swing is a skill.