Curse

ComMan · Jun 04, 2005, 08:04 AM // 08:04

I have pondered, derrived, extrapalated, and concluded the following:

I suck.

I really do. No matter what I try to do with my Ranger/Mesmer, I never seem to be an actual contributer in the arena. I'm well aware that I suck, but I can't seem to become....not terrible...

My current setup is:

9 Marksmanship
9 Illusion Magic
10 Wilderness Survival (9 + Traveler's Mask)
9 Expertise

Apply Poison
Troll Ungent
Dodge
Hunter's Shot
Distracting Shot
Clumsiness
Conjure Phantasm
Rez. Signent

While this can be effective, it's rare. I usually can't get the Hunter's shot to cause bleeding, and even when I can stack all of my damage over time effects, most teams I find the arena seem to heal enough to be fine with it. Clumsiness can prove useful for some quick damage against most targets, but once again I can't do enough damage to actually kill anything.

Prior to this I used mostly the same setup, but with Domination instead of Illusion and Shatter Enchantment and Backfire instead of the 2 mesmer spells I have now. This was a lot better for taking down casters and healers (although a lot of healers still seemed fine with having me around), but had no defense whatsoever from warriors.

I've tried messing with Kindle Arrows and Read The Wind to little effect (how can so many people talk about getting 100+ damage with bows?!), and I'm trying to find Incendary Arrows, but with no luck so far.

If anybody has any advice on how to build a not so terrible character, I'm open to suggestions.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 04, 2005, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Try this...

Echo
Dual Shot
Ignite arrow/kindle arrow
favorable wind
serpent quickness/ tiger's fury

Put up all the preperaton and rituals, then use echo on the dual shot... You won't need alot of illusion for the echo, so you can spend more points on other attributes... I suggest you get expertise up high. kindle arrow if areana, ignite arrow for tomb... serpent quickness or tiger's fury is up to you, so is the rest.

ComMan · Jun 04, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

I fail to see how Serpents Quickness and Tiger's Fury are interchangable. I assume that either you ment Lighting Reflexs instead of Serpents Quickness, or I'm totally confused.

And given that armor can affect those attacks, i'm not sure that that setup would be better than using the stacked damage over time I use now (since I tend to do about 5 damage per shot normally). Does anybody know how much damage each arrow of degen does, while I'm thinking about it.

Minwanabi · Jun 04, 2005, 06:45 PM // 18:45

First off, your attributes are terrible. Run with 10+1+3 expertise and 12+3 marksmanship, or 11+3 expertise and 12+1+4 marksmanship. Play as a r/me or r/n, and put some of your points in either domination, inspiration (iffy), or curses (for the r/n). Don't expect to do a lot of damage, expect to shut down a caster or two. Go with savage shot, distracting shot, rend (or a me skill, depending on your secondary), debilitating shot, oath shot, tiger's fury, res sig (if your team wants one on you), and the 8th spot can be a spirit, fertile for defensive, maybe symbiosis. Think of the picture as a whole, not as what you can do alone.

Demetrious · Jun 04, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

I agree with Minwanabi. Using the skills takes practice for the ranger in my experience. I am currently practicing using Hunter's shot and distracting shot. One or two hench in low levels and literally practicing those two skills. I have gotten a ton better at consistently hitting spells and causing bleeding - still not great but MARKED improvement in the last 2 days alone. If you can't get good enough for the skill to be effective then drop it for a stance or something that requires less "work" to work.

Sting · Jun 04, 2005, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Welcome to being a ranger. As an interupter you using your bow you wont be effective especially at longer ranges its more about luck (most "uber" rangers will no dought disagree, saying that they can completely shut down casters and monks with bows alone) but it comes down to either the cast times that casters skill list is insanely long (most bring instant-1 sec skills) simply because not only do you have to beat the spell you also have to beat it counting a fairly long arrow flight time. And no-dought they will then say they can use 2 or 3 preps to speed up the arrows (while there team is getting nuked into oblivion). And then most PvP is fluid your group is chasing or being chased outside of you preps area of effect. So yeah you can be effective if all the plannets are aligned and its a leap year. I personally use a mixture of Mesmer and ranger skills more on enegy stealing and interupt (beacuse mesmer interupts are faster so enhancing your chance.

As for damage output I heard all the storys also I tend to think of them as fishermans stories "the one that got away".

ComMan · Jun 04, 2005, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Haha, thank you Sting.

I honestly don't understand what Minawabi and Demetrious are suggesting.

For one thing, if I had runes, don't you think I'd be using them? Who lets their runes sit in storage and has a Traveler's Mask as their only modifier.

For another, why get 13 Marksmanship and then NOT use Marksmanship skills? If I wanted to devote myself purely to mana drain, I'd put all my points into Inspiration and Illusion, which has nothing to do with ranger skills. Sure, debilitating shot is cheap with high expertise, but Energy Tap is FREE and more powerful, and other Mesmer drains are more effective with bonus effects.

I also agree with Sting on the interrupt. Distracting Shot is not something to build around IMO, it's just a useful skill to have. I'm not planning on interrupting every single heal a monk casts. It's just a utility to prevent rezzes, preperations, enchantments, and non-monk self-heals. Savage Shot has a lot more usefulness in stopping casters, but for 25 mana (when my MAX is 31), it more or less requires not using any other skills, and for the enemy to not use instant-cast spells.

I really shouldn't talk like that consider how bad I am....

Oh, speaking of being bad: I decided to be less retarded and dump Clumsiness for Drain Enchantment, which is proving more useful despite the fairly long cooldown.

I have noticed that a lot of people will flee when they're poisoned, have Conjure Phantasm, and have just been debuffed by Drain Enchantment. This peculiar side-effect is a nice place to use Hunter's Shot. I strongly doubt that this applies in the Team Arena or HoH, but it works in Comp Arenas.

I have also learned that Pets don't actually do damage.

Red Locust · Jun 05, 2005, 12:12 AM // 00:12

I don't think a damage-dealing ranger is feasible, but I have heard of builds that use a high expertise + high marksmanship, as well as skills that quicken attack speed, to spam barrage and other damage dealing skills. High marksmanship is needed for bow and skill damage increase, the high expertise for being able to spam the skills in succession without waiting to fire off a normal bow attack. It's worht a shot.

ComMan · Jun 05, 2005, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

I don't think a damage-dealing ranger is feasible

Amen.

Minwanabi · Jun 05, 2005, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

I don't think a damage-dealing ranger is feasible, but I have heard of builds that use a high expertise + high marksmanship, as well as skills that quicken attack speed, to spam barrage and other damage dealing skills. High marksmanship is needed for bow and skill damage increase, the high expertise for being able to spam the skills in succession without waiting to fire off a normal bow attack. It's worht a shot.

Yeah, the closest thing you can come is 16 marks, 14 expertise, and the highest smiting you can get, with SoH or JI on, and a zealous bow string. The plan is to make 90-100% of your arrows a special attack, since energy isn't an issue, and barrage really shines in these situations. But, still, there are better DPS builds.

Aranador · Jun 05, 2005, 10:08 AM // 10:08

I think that - if you play with bow skills - then damage dealing rangers need to be very specific with the skills they take, and they wind up loosing too much of their versitilty for the damage.

put down your spirit, and flash up your preparation, then - watch as the enemies stay out of range. Move, set up again - get off a killer shot - and have your preparations fade.

Or - luck out - and have someone charge into your rain of death!! Yay

BTW - pets are very good damage

Anyway - I use ranger/warrior, and fight with melee skills right alongside my pet. Damage from my weapon specials + my pet specials has a very high spike factor, and can seriously surprise warriors that think they are the kings of melee. Also handy against elementalists, whos damage is half against me as it might be against others.

But pet has its own penalty - one skill is taken up with pet charm

I think ranger is very fun class, able to be used in interesting ways - and then - change all your skills around, suddenly its a whole different class

ComMan · Jun 06, 2005, 03:57 AM // 03:57

I'm seriously about ready to give up on playing a Ranger, despite the fact that I've put as much time into this character as I have into some of the longer games that I own.

Seriously, Rangers are cool, fun to play, and versitile. I'll grant you all of that, and wholeheartedly agree. But they're so gimped that it's not even funny.

Yeah, you're an OK anti-caster, but a Mesmer does that job 10X better than you could ever hope to. Even with skills like Choking Gas and Incendary Arrows combined with Tigery's Fury/Lighting Reflxes, the interrupts just don't come out fast enough to keep a caster down. You can dran mana from non-moving targets, but a mesmer can do it better and get mana/hp/deal damage at the same time. You can disable skills, but so can every other class.

As for dealing with warriors, you'd be just as well off to type /sit. Much like the casters, the best defense I could find against an attacking warrior was to use my secondary (Mesmer) skills.

Besides pets, which are more of a handicap than anything else, traps, which are weak, and the weakest weapon in the game, is there any reason to keep playing a Ranger? For all the chatter about balance and strategy, will there ever be a way to beat teams of just pure Warriors, Elementalists, and Monks?

Minwanabi · Jun 06, 2005, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

For all the chatter about balance and strategy, will there ever be a way to beat teams of just pure Warriors, Elementalists, and Monks?

Yes, we do it all the time, every day, and a ranger is an integral part of our team build.

Quote:

BTW - pets are very good damage

I assume that was sarcasm? Please?

ComMan · Jun 06, 2005, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minwanabi

Yes, we do it all the time, every day, and a ranger is an integral part of our team build.

1. That was quick!

2. What does he do!? Is he just there to cast Nature's Renewal and Fertile Season? Is he an interrupter (do I just really really suck at interrupting)? What's the pivotal role that ranger plays?

Yeah, sorry for being yet another disgruntled Ranger player. I'm just getting really really really tired of re-building my character over and over just to have a W/Mo kill me with basic attacks every time I go into the arena.

ZenithMorphz · Jun 06, 2005, 05:54 AM // 05:54

I figured I would say something. I use a Ranger/Monk.

The main skills I use are from Ranger. I have 10 expertise since I like the whole even thing and having a 40% reduction on majority of my skills. Then I have 9 healing prayers. 11 Marksmanship and 4 Wildnerss Survival. I also use the Marksmanship mask. My plans are to throw a rune of major vigor in that, and then use a major beast mastery so the health is cancelled out. And make my prep spell better. Then use a minor markmanship rune also for the boost and no negligents.

I have yet to find an effective self heal better then Troll Unguent.(Which I don't use oddly) But basic skill wise. I have nothing advanced. I have Hunters Shot....its sweet. Low cost, more damage then normal attack. Then go with a Dual Shot...its just there to be there. And Distracting Shot...this skill is like a must with the 20 second disable. Debilitating Shot is nice to switch over Dual Shot. Then I have a Prep skill there. Apply Poison more commonly. Thats 4 slots. 3 bow attacks and 1 prep. Then I go a Healing Breeze and Mending and Restore Life, and lastly a rez signet, I have two revives due to one being an energy revive and one being a health revive with low cast. Its not something common, but I do it.

I do have the pattern of 3 bow attacks, 1 prep, 2 heals, and 2 rezzes. Also something to note, in PvP characters. the crap I use is Marksmanship mask. Druids Vest and Druids Leggings then Drakescale Gloves and Studded Leather boots...just for the minor other resists. And having a 30 energy pool. I recently found out the Druids Leggings in RP give only one energy so I think I will switch those out with Studded Leather.

The ranger class is a jack of all trades and master of none.

And to comment, I have hit for 101 damage. I use a 15-28 damage bow, I am elevated and the mob is a wayy lower level then me. You would do like enhanced damage then a double from critical. So its possible, but lamely possible. Otherwise I have no clue, may be able to mix something in armor penetration yadda yadda.

On another note. I did think of something. Rangers do have the health boosts like every other class with the spirits. Those are useful in defending HoH, I have found that out making classes have like 1k HP or next to it with all the health boosts.

ComMan · Jun 06, 2005, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenithMorphz

...Then go with a Dual Shot...its just there to be there....Apply Poison more commonly.

The ranger class is a jack of all trades and master of none.

And to comment, I have hit for 101 damage...its possible, but lamely possible. Otherwise I have no clue, may be able to mix something in armor penetration yadda yadda.

Why Dual Shot? The main use of that skill, as far as I can tell, is to squeeze a little more usefulness out of skills like Kindle Arrows and Ignite Arrows that add a specified amount of damage to every single arrow (hence doing double with that skill, even though your regular damage isn't much better). However, you said your main preperation is Apply Poison, which Dual Shot won't help with. Why not carry Penetrating Attack instead if you're going to damage?

I've stood on the cliffs at Shiverpeak and shot people who were walking through the mud way down below, and didn't see any significant change in damage. Since that's the biggest height difference I've seen in a PvP arena, I don't think the whole cliff thing actually matters there.

Also, despite being the worst ranger ever, I can PvE just fine. It's in the PvP that I'm completely and totally worthless, apparently with no regard to what kind of tactics I try.

Zeru · Jun 06, 2005, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Of course your ranger won't perform well if you don't have high expertise.

13 lets you use 5 energy skills for 2.
14 lets you use 10 energy skills for 4.

14 is the optimal number. Strive to get it however you can. 10+1+3 is the most efficient way but superior expertises are not easy to unlock though ocassionally you'll find idiots selling them for cheap prices cause they think sup. expertise isn't that great (in actuality one of the best runes there is).

12 marksmanship is a must if you are using a bow because otherwise you do not hit for 100% of listed damage. Past 12 marksmanship kinda drops rather quickly per attribute pt.

distracting shot is an absolute must-have on a ranger, even more so on a r/me, as that's obviously a ranger focusing on interrupts.

Rangers can mix in damage/interrupts very nicely.

Mind you, don't base everything off of arenas. Arenas are home to the solo-based character. thats why healing war monks are so popular, even though they suck royally in competitive pvp under most circumstances.

Apply Poison->This is iffy. the 4 degen isn't terrible but it's not that great either and imo isn't worth 10 seconds every minute to keep up.
Troll Ungent->for arena, you do need a self-healing, but once you start organized pvp'ing (assuming you want to), ditch this asap.
Dodge->not worth it with 60 sec recharge.
Hunter's Shot->iffy. bleeding is pretty neglible and you can find better skills imo.
Distracting Shot
Clumsiness
Conjure Phantasm->5 degen is not worth the 10 mana unaffected by expertise.
Rez. Signent->your personal choice, I'd say ditch it but it can be useful. Just not always enough to warrant it.

Things you should look at instead:
tigers fury->pretty much every ranger build has this in it if they're using a bow for +50% damage possibly 70-80% of the time.
Incendiary Arrows->Strong elite but only activated 1/3 of the time. Still it will interrupt and set on fire which is 21+ dps for that time, very effective.
choking gas->good interrupt on casters but uses 12 seconds every minute to activate so use it carefully.
debilitating shot->excellent cost effective energy shutdown. take away 10 energy for 4 of yours?
savage shot->damage/interrupt
kindle/ignite arrows->a damage buff is always good.
pin down->need some movement slowdown.

experiment. get with a decent pvp guild and play tombs or gvg.

Beqxter · Jun 06, 2005, 07:16 AM // 07:16

As for getting wasted by warriors, I find the most effective strategy is pin down. If you can get them before they get to you, great, if not, just pin down, turn and run a little ways, then hunters shot. If you're using poison it's easy to tell when the pin down has hit, and the hunters gives you poison + bleeding, plus you're out of harm's way. You're in trouble if they gang up on you, but with practice you should be able to survive against most warriors one-on-one this way.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jun 06, 2005, 07:30 AM // 07:30

The reason serpent quickness or tiger's fury was that it depend on waht you want...

If you have energy crisis... you will want tiger's fury as you won't need to spam dual shot...

However, if your energy can supply... you should go serpent quickness to get as many dual out as possible. with that setup + serpent quickness... u can almost use dual shot dual shot rinse repeat without any regular shot in the middle... while tiger's fury alone wont be able to do that.

Pet damage are actually quite high... the only thing they are lacking is skills from themselves... However, if a ranger got high enough energy... and spam arrow skills and pet skills at the same time... the damage is actually outstanding. But then u wont have enough attribute point for 4 area to be 12 unless u use alot of superior rune... which u actually can as ranger are targeted as one of the last... especially in tomb.

Most pet damage range from 15-27 with attack speed of averge speed of a bow attack speed. Thats right... their regular hit are as hard as urs with marksmanship 12 and BM 12... over at gwonline.net ranger forum have a very nice pet study... take a look.

ZenithMorphz · Jun 06, 2005, 07:32 AM // 07:32

I should get around to getting penetration shot or something. Just neat how it has no modifiers. Then I guess it has nothing to do with elevation and the mobs being a way lower level. I mean like level 5 vs level 20.

Thats the only way I have managed to reach that high. In reality the skills I would believe to end up using in the end would be Hunters Shot, Penetrating Attack, and Distracting Shot. And either incendiary arrows or apply poison. Then mending. and either healing breeze or troll unguent. Healing Breeze is instant kinda with a higher cost and they both have around the same effect. Though Troll Unguent is cheaper and cast time. And the two rezes. If you are really after damage though, you would want to try something like R/E or so somewhere else recomended. It was Shock Sniper or something...read that somewhere.