Curse

Straegen · May 16, 2005, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

Like it or not, the Ranger is really about timing and patience. A single well-timed, prepared shot at just the right spot can make all the difference. Setting up traps in effective places, then luring opponents into them takes a lot of patience and control, especially when everyone else is spamming dps all over the place.

The Ranger's dps will never match the other more powerful classes, as you've already discovered. Well then... change the focus from damage per second to effectiveness per second.

Why then play a ranger when I can do the same timed shot with an Ele and get the desired dps? Like it or not "effectiveness per second" is still measured in can it kill me before I can kill it. I am just finding with my ranger in the higher end PvE and PvP environments that the class is fundamentally weaker (I PvE more than PvP so my views on this matter are likely scewed). I haven't gotten the holy grail of PvE ranger skills, barrage, so that skill might turn the tide. The ranger is a fine class, but it still makes me pause when fighters carve through stuff as fast or faster than my ranger can and take less damage. I understand the Ele doing more damage because it has less natural defense, but no class should exist in the game that has more defense AND more offense than another. Guess what it boils down to for me is either finding the right balance of skills that brings the ranger to par or living with it and enjoying the unique nature of some ranger skills. Knowing what I know now though, I would likely take ranger as a secondary. Maybe a Mo/R with a pet build. Probably catch a lot of players by suprise when the pet starts shooting damage out.

NiGht_HaWk · May 16, 2005, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Straegen

Like it or not "effectiveness per second" is still measured in can it kill me before I can kill it.

Actually, you are wrong; you are always on the line that it is always damage that determines everything. I think what he is trying to say is that the ranger doesnt do as much damage, but it can be more effective as in disrupting spells, putting traps in just right spot, etc.

Warriors are made to do immense amounts of damage. Rangers are not. Rangers are made to be versatile, being able to take any role decently well.

Necro and Mesmer hexes can totally shut down the warrior to basically nothing. Necro can lower their armor, damage, attack speed, among others. Mesmers can make the warrior's attacks a double edged sword, you could say; Empathy doing damage to them with every attack. Soothing Images doesnt let the warrior gain any adrenaline, weaking him even more. So the warrior is not that "invincible class" that has more defense and offense. it can be easily countered.

Even the ranger can combat warriors fairly well. traps like Spiked and barbed traps can damage, cripple and make the warrior bleeding, allowing you to make your escape. Throw dirt can make the warrior miss almost every time. The ranger has other defensive stances as well to keep on par with the warriors sustainability.

Beqxter · May 16, 2005, 11:23 PM // 23:23

I play a R/W, and have shared your frustration at times - watching an Ele or Warrior on my team decimate foes while I chip away. I tend to solo more than group, so I use the henchies, which I find particularly challenging with a Ranger.

It's still satisfying, though, and I stick with it, because it's HARD. You can't just pick an enemy, hit the spacebar and then just hit the same old skill combinations to keep them fired. You have to take into consideration WHOM you're attacking, and WHAT THEY'RE DOING. You have to try and time your disruption or debilitating when going up against spell casters, or to slow down an oncoming warrior. You have to pay attention to terrain, getting up high without straying too far from your monk or boxing yourself in.

I think the builds are all balanced in terms of potential, but I think they're very different in the amount of skill it takes to REACH that potential. You can quickly and easily dish out damage with a warrior, but the Ranger is all about gameplay, finesse and strategy. Watching what's happening in the entire battle and responding. Warriors pay attention to enemies. Monks pay attention to allies. Rangers have to watch both.

It isn't for everyone, I think. It's hard. You die more. You level more slowly. But the satisfaction that comes from playing a battle perfectly and coming out alive is, I think, higher than if I was able to just autopilot through the battle. You can take more pride in your work. What fun is a game without challenge?

Straegen · May 16, 2005, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiGht_HaWk

Actually, you are wrong; you are always on the line that it is always damage that determines everything. I think what he is trying to say is that the ranger doesnt do as much damage, but it can be more effective as in disrupting spells, putting traps in just right spot, etc.

Again... you can disrupt and trap all you want. If the other guy kills you before you kill him or her, you lose. Effective = winning which means you must deal damage/absorb damage better in some form or another. I won't argue that a ranger takes more finese because it does and I will even give the point that I am probably not playing my ranger to the fullest potential, but to sit and say that effectiveness has nothing to do with killing/damage is absurd. You could be the best damn trap layer in the game, but if you aren't scoring kills or helping your team score kills you ARE NOT EFFECTIVE. I take that back... you can be effective helping the other team win.

Quote:

It isn't for everyone, I think. It's hard. You die more. You level more slowly. But the satisfaction that comes from playing a battle perfectly and coming out alive is, I think, higher than if I was able to just autopilot through the battle. You can take more pride in your work. What fun is a game without challenge?

That was my conclusion as well. I believe you have to enjoy the class itself to go ranger. For me, I am a munchkin at heart and want to play streamlined builds. Whatever gives me an edge, I will likely use and abuse it. In GW to date the balance is superb, better than any complex PvP and/or PvE game I have played in a while. Truthfully rangers are fine and can kill players of all skill levels. I just found after leveling my warrior and ele up, that the Ranger was a handful by comparison. The game almost seems too easy with an ele.

Oddly enough, they may be one of the better classes to teach PvP because you have to be on your toes.

Quote:

I think the builds are all balanced in terms of potential, but I think they're very different in the amount of skill it takes to REACH that potential.

I think that same dedication to play in another class pays higher dividends in the end. True the warrior comes up to speed faster and has less overall diversity, but it has almost as many tricks in its bag as a ranger when it comes to winning and ele seem to have more.

Akshara · May 17, 2005, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Why then play a ranger when I can do the same timed shot with an Ele and get the desired dps? Like it or not "effectiveness per second" is still measured in can it kill me before I can kill it.

Sorry and with respect, but I just think you're playing the wrong class for your gaming style. That you even asked this question indicates that an Elementalist would be a better choice, since what you're focused on is the amount of damage you can dish out in the least amount of time. And that's a great thing to want for sure, but it's just not what the Ranger is good at.

Quote:

I think what he is trying to say is that the ranger doesnt do as much damage, but it can be more effective as in disrupting spells, putting traps in just right spot, etc.

Yes. And that the Ranger is a supporting role, not a frontline attacker. Rangers, in this game at least, are more akin to Mesmers with skills, not Warriors with bows. The Ranger may not be able to dish out as much damage as an Elementalist, but he/she can add situations or conditions to the battlefield that make everyone else's attacks more powerful and effective. They can keep others alive long enough to finish what they started, and interrupt or completely debilitate the actions of others. The Ranger can cause a whole lot more chaos much more quickly than an Elementalist can; and as I'm sure you've experienced already, in a party situation that added chaos or extra few seconds can make all the difference.

I mean if it were all and only about damage done, then there would be no point in Mesmers or Necros either, and the vast lexicon of interrupts, hexes, enhancements, etc. would be a waste of space.

From reading your preferred gaming style, I'd have to suggest that a Elementalist may be more up your alley, and maybe with a Ranger secondary like you suggested. Some people don't take to certain professions, but that doesn't mean that the professions themselves are fundamentally flawed.

Akshara · May 17, 2005, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Again... you can disrupt and trap all you want. If the other guy kills you before you kill him or her, you lose. Effective = winning which means you must deal damage/absorb damage better in some form or another.

OR help your teammates deal/absorb damage better. It doesn't matter who makes the kill, as long as it's made. The team with the last person standing wins, whether that's the Ranger or not.

It's just my opinion, but to me when a Ranger is doing his job well no one ever really notices. They all just happen to kill faster and live longer, and aren't really sure why. It's just a different playing style, that's all.

And one for which the Ranger is well suited, I might add.

Griminald · May 17, 2005, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Straegen

You could be the best damn trap layer in the game, but if you aren't scoring kills or helping your team score kills you ARE NOT EFFECTIVE. I take that back... you can be effective helping the other team win.

I hate to break this to you, but disruption and trapping actually do help your team score kills. Your perspective is entirely on dealing direct damage -- open your mind up a little.

Disruption will decrease your enemy's effectiveness, keeping them from doing as much damage to you. Trapping will cause direct damage plus damage over time, blindness and/or crippling.

Combined with my Necro curses, I can debuff a warrior's attack speed, decrease their damage per swing, slow their run speed, make them bleed, decrease their accuracy, interrupt their skills, and remove their enchantments, among other things. You can't tell me that this isn't contributing to the team's success.

If a Ranger could outdamage a warrior with raw bow skills while being able to do all this, we'd probably be overpowered.

Typhoon · May 17, 2005, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

Ranger's are all about support. As a self contained class, they play terrible. Troll Unguent is horrible and their other stances have ridiculous recharge times.

Troll Inguent is +9 health regen at rank 12, and you call it horrible? Are you joking? Also, is Whirling Defense and Storm Chaser part of your horrible stances category? They last for close to 20 seconds at a time, and the Ranger has multiple skills to reduce skill cooldowns by a considerable amount.

Everyone uses these skills, and they are even part of the new ranger template. You might want to re-think your opinion.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 17, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

I hesitated in posting here because I didnt want to bash people who simply don't know how to play a certain class, but your insistance that only damage dealing is the only way to be effective is just assinine. It's just pure ignorance and sadly there's a lot of people playing PVP who think the same you do in that only damage is king.

Dedric · May 17, 2005, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

I find a sword wielding warrior (max dmg fire bow compared to a dragon sword) does about 90% the damage my ranger does and takes about half the damage (warrior shield has ar 16). When compared to a hammer build (again max dmg), the warrior quickly outstrips the ranger in damage output (hammers really throw down damage) and the knockdown abilities in the hammer line are impressive.

ok really you'r saying a war dose more damage then a ranger.....very smart observation lol. yes he dose more damage cuz thats the whole point of him but if you you look at it with more then just damage a ranger can own a war if they play it right no questions asked. i mean i have a ranger/ele and once i get the skills needed not only will a singal war have a very hard time reaching me but once he dose i'll have enough buffers to take him without to much of a problem. and if people in PvP are not attacking rangers till last thats a big mistake unless its a prebuilt ranger those kinda suck. if you leave a good ranger to his work you can have some mass problems to deal with.

you really got to look at it like a ranger is not perfect for anything but is great at anything like the saying "jack of all trades master of none". so even if you dont see it rangers can b far more deadly then more people like to see

Buoyancy · May 17, 2005, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Straegen

I understand the Ele doing more damage because it has less natural defense, but no class should exist in the game that has more defense AND more offense than another.

So should both mesmers and necromancers not be in the game?

WNxTyphoon · May 17, 2005, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Straegen

When compared to a hammer build (again max dmg), the warrior quickly outstrips the ranger in damage output (hammers really throw down damage)

Just because a hammer puts out higher numbers at a time doesn't mean it does more dps...

Defafnyr · May 17, 2005, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Akshara makes a really good point. I've read a lot of class threads while searching for my own niche. Every one of them has people who think that particular class bites, and an equal amount of posters that defend the class.

A lot of whether a class is good or not is if it is good for you and your playstyle. I have a daughter who always plays a healer, she rocks at healing classes, and would think any melee class bites, because if she's the one playing it, then yes it does bite. She's lousy at melee but is a Class A healer. Her sister is a nuke-queen. She thinks both healing classes and melee classes suck. Of course she thinks finger-waggers are the only way to go, because she's damned good at it. And then there's their mother, who likes toe-to-toe and ranged melee. I think healing classes suck....but then I've actually been asked not to roll any more druids (in EQ) because while I'm a damned good tank, when I play healer everyone dies. As for finger-waggers, I'm all fizzle and no pop.

Sometimes it's not so much about what class is better, but is more about what class is that player best in.

We can't all be the kings and queens of DPS. It takes all kinds of players to round out a group, a team, a guild, and a game. Play the class that fits with your playstyle, and then make the most of what you're the best at. That's what's going to get us the best of the healers, the best of the tanks, the best of the support classes, when we are all playing what fits our playstyle and then polish up our craft.

Zetor · May 17, 2005, 06:38 AM // 06:38

What I dislike about the ranger class is its bad synergy vs all secondaries. Caster secondaries don't benefit from Expertise and while Warrior skills DO have some synergy, without Strength you are going to be stuck doing 2-3 damage versus well-armored foes. Also if you use a bow, you can't use an energy-bonus offhand (duh) and if you are a R/W, you need to invest in Tactics for a shield, spreading you very thin on attribute points.

That said, my R/W build with Hundred Blades, Apply Poison, Whirling Defense, Hamstring and traps is a HUGE pita and I have also taken down two W/Mo-s at once :P I wouldn't try it in a serious pvp environment though, the lureintotrap-whirl-trap-trap-applypoison-100blades tactic is way too easy to counter. Also, something simple like Empathy (which a lot of mesmers run, I've found) can mess you right up when Whirling Defense is down, good luck trying to plant traps otherwise!

Edit: Yeah, Unguent is bad. The 3 second cast time really breaks it... that's almost as long as a rez and we all know what happens to squishies that try to rez mid-combat. I much prefer my Healing Signet (at 9 tactics even), it's free to use, has only a 2 sec cast time, heals more (!) and the double damage isn't a problem with Whirling Defense anyway.

-- Z.

Defafnyr · May 17, 2005, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Where do we find Healing Signet?

Straegen · May 17, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Edit: Yeah, Unguent is bad. The 3 second cast time really breaks it...

IMO, Unguent should have been a stance and activated while running/strafing. It would counter with whirl, but still allow the player to stand in on more stuff without skipping a beat. They also need to buff up the bows a little.

Quote:

Just because a hammer puts out higher numbers at a time doesn't mean it does more dps...

This is true, but load up a ranger with a max dmg bow then warrior with a max dmg hammer, pound on a drake and see which one drops it faster. The hammer guy will win 9 times out of 10 if not more often. Take a sword guy with a max dragon sword into that same fight and if the ranger plays it just right he will win by a tiny margin, but will have taken more damage (shields are powerful in this game). I don't think anyone who has played a warrior and a ranger will argue with that statement. Strength coupled with hammer adds up to some monster hits. I know in PvP I would rather take an arrow than a shot by a hammer.

Quote:

So should both mesmers and necromancers not be in the game

If you know how to play a mesmer, they can hold their own with the best of them. Mesmers have some really good PvP skills (such as backfire... OUCH!) and fast casting can often help them drop nukes from other classes faster. I haven't played a mesmer primary yet, but it is on my list. I know in PvP I respect them and consider them a target of opportunity once the monks are down. Necors as a primary, I don't worry about as much other classes, but they have some skills that are truly powerful skills. W/N and Ele/N builds can be very dangerous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

Sorry and with respect, but I just think you're playing the wrong class for your gaming style. That you even asked this question indicates that an Elementalist would be a better choice, since what you're focused on is the amount of damage you can dish out in the least amount of time. And that's a great thing to want for sure, but it's just not what the Ranger is good at.

That is only partially true. I play PvE as well (probably 70% of the time) and find rangers in PvE situations at a disadvantage as well both in groups and solo. How many times have you been in a town and someone spamming for a ranger to join their group? Not many I suspect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

the Ranger is a supporting role, not a frontline attacker. Rangers, in this game at least, are more akin to Mesmers with skills, not Warriors with bows. The Ranger may not be able to dish out as much damage as an Elementalist, but he/she can add situations or conditions to the battlefield that make everyone else's attacks more powerful and effective. They can keep others alive long enough to finish what they started, and interrupt or completely debilitate the actions of others. The Ranger can cause a whole lot more chaos much more quickly than an Elementalist can

In this regard they fail in a more obvious fashion. They do have some skills that disrupt, but a mesmer or monk is far more suited to this role than a Ranger. Rangers possess only a handful of skills compared to mesmers for support. I would even argue that a well built mesmer can out damage and cause more chaos than a ranger.

Again, I think the Ranger falls into the jack of all trades category master of none and that is the feel I got after leveling in PvP and PvE environments to 18. After going back through the game with an Ele and a War, I found that the ranger was a handful to play by comparison and I couldn't get the effectiveness out of the class.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

I mean if it were all and only about damage done, then there would be no point in Mesmers or Necros either, and the vast lexicon of interrupts, hexes, enhancements, etc. would be a waste of space.

Its about killing them before they kill you. Mesmers are powerful in their disruption and drain spells. Personally, I find Necro mains to be at a disadvantage on the battlefield mainly because Soul Reaping isn't as useful as Energy Storage or Fast Casting. The fight usually turns before the necro can even get going, but the necro does have some VERY powerful game changing skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

From reading your preferred gaming style, I'd have to suggest that a Elementalist may be more up your alley, and maybe with a Ranger secondary like you suggested. Some people don't take to certain professions, but that doesn't mean that the professions themselves are fundamentally flawed.

I would still argue that rangers don't PvE as well as other classes, in PvP they are usually the last targetted on the battlefield and they can't out damage a warrior with better armor. To me this adds up to some disappointment in the class.

As for the comment about ranger primary not supporting the secondaries well, couldn't be farther from the truth. Even a sword warrior gels with a casting secondary thanks to use of ad instead of energy.

Lasher Dragon · May 17, 2005, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defafnyr

Where do we find Healing Signet?

It's a Warrior skill, I believe they get it free in Pre-sear.

Defafnyr · May 17, 2005, 03:00 PM // 15:00

So.....if I found I really liked my straight ranger build and wasn't using any of my secondary skills, and when I get a chance to change secondary's I can dump elementalist and take warrior and get healing signet? Or have I lost that chance because I didn't choose warrior as secondary in pre-searing.

Lasher Dragon · May 17, 2005, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defafnyr

So.....if I found I really liked my straight ranger build and wasn't using any of my secondary skills, and when I get a chance to change secondary's I can dump elementalist and take warrior and get healing signet? Or have I lost that chance because I didn't choose warrior as secondary in pre-searing.

I don't know, haven't had a chance to change secondary profession. However, my secondary right now is Warrior, and I don't use any of it. I have Healing Signet and I never use it. The higher my level got, the more and more I gravitated to pure Ranger. When I do get a chance to change my secondary, I am not sure what I will pick, if any. I like being pure Ranger. Although I might pick Mesmer for a bit more anti-caster since I plan on using my PvE toon for PvP when I'm done with all the missions.

TheZoologist · May 17, 2005, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Defafnyr

So.....if I found I really liked my straight ranger build and wasn't using any of my secondary skills, and when I get a chance to change secondary's I can dump elementalist and take warrior and get healing signet? Or have I lost that chance because I didn't choose warrior as secondary in pre-searing.

You could, of course, capture the skill with a signet, although that might be considered a waste of a skill point. The 15-20 warrior bosses all seem to use healing signet repeatedly during a fight, so should be fairly simple to obtain. This is assuming that you can capture a signet skill. I haven't tried, or had cause to.