Curse

TheNakedOne · May 11, 2005, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackell

this thread is turned into. One big flame war, no side is going to budge, and flames and trolling has started to run rampant.

I disagree with your assessment of the utility of this thread. Certainly there's a lot of flaming, no budging, and trolling, but realistically that's patently unavoidable in any forum thread. On the other hand, a few suggestions *have* popped out, some good points been made and clarified...unlike other threads u might find on the 'net.

I just finished reading through all 8 pages. It seems clear to me that those arguing intelligently on the PvP side want a good tactical game. What they don't want is having "Time Invested" be a bigger factor than Tactics/Skill when it comes to winning.
There are a lot of specious arguments about how GW is an mmo, not an rts/fps, and how PvPers should go play other games. However, PvPers make a strong argument, based on A.net's statements and based on how GW works, to support that GW isn't your generic MMO. More, GW is focused significantly on competitive, highly tactical dueling (as opposed to grinding).

Ignoring that, though, there still doesn't seem like there's a good reason to deny PvPers that good tactical experience, with a PvP-only All-Access mode. Certainly from a marketing point of view, it would let A.net attract purchases from a wider audience base. From there, everyone benefits as far as profits going into development for GW2.
It would be easy to set the PvE-developing-to-PvP mode as a "hardcore" option for people who would rather earn their skills and then compete.

There remains, in my opinion, a further argument - this time from the PvE point of view. That is, that the time spent in "the grind" acts as a classroom for players before they step into PvP. I can see how some players might catch on quickly, or have Alpha/Beta experience, and thus deny this argument. Well, personally I would come down on both sides of the fence(as someone who tends not to beta test) so I won't try to argue either side of *that* issue.
Definitely, though, I can see investment in a grind at least as a partial measure that is useful in keeping "useless teammates" out of PvP and from ruining games for more intelligent, experienced players. From the sounds of it, however, the time requirements for Elite skills are excessive (where, for those who continue after 8 pages to spout stupid comparisons to other MMORPGs, I would call those other requirements ridiculous). A suggestion I would proffer is to:

Force players to grind the first 5-8 Elite skills. Then, allow them to gain quickly or even outright buy the next set. Possibly, the grind could be increased once again for the last chunk of Elite skills, so that people can gain *some* advantage through time investment.

Alternately, another suggestion is to:

Allow players free buy, or quick gain, of 15-25 initial Elite skills (or whatever number would gain you sufficient flexibility in PvP to have fun and be competitive - I'll leave specifics to people with more experience than I have). From there, you have to grind to access all the rest.

Siren · May 11, 2005, 08:23 AM // 08:23

My point is that chess is a weak analogy, because they're two entirely different concepts and because of this, their individual approaches and set-ups are radically different, so they have no relevance at all to begin with. The fact that you begin with an entire chess set is simply because there are no RPG elements in chess...it's a boardgame. You start with either relatively blank characters or somewhat pre-made characters in GuildWars because GuildWars isn't chess; it's a video-game.

I suppose philosophically, you could make that argument, draw the correlation between chess and GuildWars, but even then, it's a weak philosophical argument as well.

Regarding solutions to the SoC...from a gameplay perspective, I'd be more inclined to go with the Quest-based rather than Elite vendors, because you start selling Elite skills at vendors, they'll have to be sold at a higher price, so people are going to start grinding straight out of the Searing--and the incessant grind is something ANet is doing their damndest to completely avoid.

We know that some type of grind is to be expected in MMORPGs, but the Quest-based, I feel, is what most closely reflects ANet's goals.

And really, the Quest system wouldn't be too much of a content addition. The bosses already spawn. I don't see too much trouble in placing special quest givers. The SoC system is already in place, so...the content is already there for the most part. All that's left is to link it together.

eventhorizen · May 11, 2005, 08:59 AM // 08:59

The thing is though you cannot let PvP only mode players gain access to things instantly that PvE mode players would have to 'grind' for, because that would mean PvE initial characters might go into a fight with a disadvantage. Perhaps they couldnt find enough Elite skills or whatever.

From what I undertsood of the game, the PvP only mode was meant to be for people who wanted to PvP right away, not to prevent them having to PvE at all.

No matter how you gain skill, elite skills, equipment etc. it cannot be exclusive to one type of character, simply because both types will compete against each other. Any individual player must have to go through the same process as any ohter player to access the same things, otherwise THEN it is unbalanced.

Look I know you will all say that this is smalk, or flaming blah blah, but individuals loathing to play through a part of a game, for whatever reason, cannot mean that that player can access anything any easier than any other player.
You are all asuming that every player who is going to PvP has no interest in PvE, or that PvP build players are going to be in the best guilds, sitting ontop of the ladders etc.
That means nothing.

As I keep iterating, a small section of the player base will want nothing but PvP, a small section will want nothing but PvE, and the majority will have bought this game for both aspects.

If, regardless of what you prefer to do in GW, the methods of attaining 'things' are not the same for everyone, how can you call this balanced?

I would like to use tanks in Rome Total War online, but I dont get them

Some aspects of every game undoubtably annoys people. The problem here is that I neither think this issue is unbalanced, but I believe it could unbalance the game, nor do I believe it goes against any description I have read of this game. I believe a.net told us that the vast majority of grind would be eliminated, but how can a developer say it will eleiminate ALL grind? When grind can so easilly be a matter of opinion... Would be bad PR managment tbh.

Thats not to say there isnt an issue, certain people do feel strongly about this in particular, but is that enough to go changing and possibly unbalancing the game?

You say that to be able to compete you need to PvE, well thats not true.
Your basic PvP build gets 30 more attribute points than a lvl 20 PvE character, so in order to compete a lvl 20 PvE has to do 2 more quests
So saying that PvP builds cannot compete/is unbalanced is incorrect. 30 attribute points used cleverly can be as huge an advantage as any skill, elite or not.

Please, I dont want to make myself look bad by flaming, but I see people complain of unbalancing, unfairness, misleading, etc. etc. and my personal opinion is that none of those things are correct. I myself get insulted, by people who claim things I know are either wrong, or lies.

There is an issue here, it is an issue about how much effort you have to put into the game to attain enough to compete at a high level. That is the issue here, nothing else.
For myself thats no issue at all, I will put in as much time as I need, and if I cant hack it then thats unlucky. Its just my opinion that this isnt a problem with the game, but rather some people patients.

TheNakedOne · May 11, 2005, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

The thing is though you cannot let PvP only mode players gain access to things instantly that PvE mode players would have to 'grind' for, because that would mean PvE initial characters might go into a fight with a disadvantage

And what exactly is the problem with PvE players entering at a disadvantage? Indeed, it's already a *given* that PvE players will be disadvantaged - they're automatically, under the current system, disadvantaged against those other PvE players who can afford to devote more time at grinding. That's the very point of the PvP crowd. Their desire is to eliminate this disadvantage b/c it has nothing to do whatsoever with skill, wits, etc.
It is pointless.

So what is your stance then? Do you, as a PvE player, *need* your time investment to pull you ahead in power? Or, do you, as you stated in your latest post and as the PvP players are arguing, feel that a gap in character effectiveness based purely on access to skills is a negative aspect of the current design? If the former, I can feel nothing but contempt for you.

Your response may be that the difference is that PvE players will have *earned* their greater power. In reply, I say that this is a false sense of accomplishment. What is involved in "earning" the Elite Skills is nothing at all to do with challenge and skill, and everything to do with time wasting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

You are all asuming that every player who is going to PvP has no interest in PvE

Certainly there will be players who are drawn to both aspects of the game - I would be one of them. On the other hand, not every player who is going to PvP, yet is interested in PvE, will feel his ego threatened after losing to someone purely because of access to a greater skills set. Heck, as it is now this is already going to happen, and be the case, because I'm not going to spend more than an hour every other day of the week grinding away.

Meanwhile, those who are purely interested in the highly involving PvP tactics GW can provide will have a severely worse experience, under the current system. That they can have all the skills "for free" hurts me not at all. I'll have my fun developing my character PvE, and bring him over to PvP as I feel like it. I'll have a good challenge trying to beat any player with access to more skills than me - whether through Instant-Access or through more time devoted. I'll have fun crushing those who think they can take "the best" skills through Instant-Access and feel "leet," because I'll have superior wits, tactics, and experience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

Its just my opinion that this isnt a problem with the game, but rather some people patients.

If a game's design were to be of such quality, that it could draw people to play it again and again, from an rpg standpoint, then people wouldn't have an issue at all with "the grind." But as it is, in "all" mmorpgs out there...the grind is senseless. That's why GW sold, and won so much acclaim from the testers - because it successfully eliminated a lot of that grind.
It's not like the PvP crowd haven't put in their time with the PvE portion of the game. It's not like they're asking to have everything up front without any effort at all (as many arguers would like to claim). Rather, they have put in their time, and they don't want to waste time, slogging through missions they've already done, in order to be able to enjoy another aspect of GW that is far from a waste of time. I've no doubt they would be happy to "grind" more to get the Elite Skills - IF that grinding took place with new missions, bosses, new gameplay. But as it stands, it's just a waste of a time sink.

TheNakedOne · May 11, 2005, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

The key part is that the game is lessened if you don't have a full chessboard (or skillset) because you're lacking options that would otherwise be available.

I disagree - I'll often limit my own chessboard (or skillset), and the game would be far from lessened. Rather it would be heightened by the greater challenge I might then find.
But unlike Siren, I find the analogy a great analogy at least for your point, just draw different conclusions than the ones he has. While I might limit my own chessboard against a lesser player, it would be ridiculous for me to do so against Kasparov. He's already far beyond my chess ability, no point in giving him any more advantage. At least give me a matched chessboard, and I"ll see what I can learn, what challenge I can put up. If it's still too easy for him, he can limit his chessboard at his own choice. But it's purely ridiculous to limit my chessboard to start with.

eventhorizen · May 11, 2005, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNakedOne

And what exactly is the problem with PvE players entering at a disadvantage? .

Well what would be the point in that? The pre made PvP builds were to give people an early taster of lvl 20 combat, not shortcut them to a fully developed character. Its not about PvE players fighting PvP players, or one side having an advantage over the other. BECAUSE THEIR ARE NO SIDES. You want to compete then you must play the game. Sorry to have to shatter your delusions

but the game is designed so that you have to play it in order to be good at it.
Sure you dont have to reach level 100, or scoure every inch of the land, but you still need to put in some time and effort to learn how to play, to develop your character, to do stuff in this game.
You dont want to take the time and develop your character sufficiently? That is your choice and not mine.
You and people like you seem to have some misguided sense of PvP players fighting it out in compititions and PvE players poncing around in fairy land. Wrong mate, those are both aspects of a game called Guild Wars, if you dont like how it has to be played, you are free to leave any time you choose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNakedOne

Indeed, it's already a *given* that PvE players will be disadvantaged - they're automatically, under the current system, disadvantaged against those other PvE players who can afford to devote more time at grinding. That's the very point of the PvP crowd. Their desire is to eliminate this disadvantage b/c it has nothing to do whatsoever with skill, wits, etc.
It is pointless..

First of all this 'grind' is actually a very beautiful role playing game. Since FFV these along with RTS have been the games I have looked for the most. Through VI-X, Some obscure Japanese titles like Star Ocean etc. to Morrowind and several MMORPGs I have experianced creativity, imagination, compelling stories of fictional characters, lavish and inspirational worlds, complex and involving gameplay, and have spent more waking non job related hours in fictional lives than I have probably spent on my own life, I admit this.
You do not like these kinds of games? You can take a long walk off a short cliff for all I care, classing an entire genre of gaming 'grind' because you do not like it is lame, shortsighted, and very very insulting.
The PvP 'crowd' as you put it, obviously are people with no interest in what the core of this game is : a Fantasy world of character creation, development, and competition. You see only competition in this game, and the rest is irrelevant or even annoying. This is the view of a vast MINORITY, try to understand that, and to the people who are this games true fans, you would be better off leaving soon.
Noone is disadvantaged in this game by this game. You own desires, likes and dislikes, plus the inconveniance of your own lives is what will disadvantage you in the World that is Guild Wars. Nothing else. You dont have the time, nor the desire to develop a character in this land for competition. Thats your fault and not the games.
Pointless...? Im sure every single thing that exists is ultimatly pointless my uninspired friend, at best it will be for the amusement of some deity, at worst a random accident. Try to enjoy creativity and imagination while your short life lasts. There will be no dreams in death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNakedOne

So what is your stance then? Do you, as a PvE player, *need* your time investment to pull you ahead in power? Or, do you, as you stated in your latest post and as the PvP players are arguing, feel that a gap in character effectiveness based purely on access to skills is a negative aspect of the current design? If the former, I can feel nothing but contempt for you. .

My time investment in Guild Wars is due entirally to my enjoyment of the game. Was I under the impression that particular skills or equipment would give me an unbeatable edge in competition I would probably have finished the ascension of my main lvl 19 character and gone on to look for these awsome objects, instead I wanted to experiance other aspects of the game so created a radically different character, that is more enjoyable, and that i will ascend with, hopefully attaining elite skills and awsome equipment at some point.
I am going to play this game as well as I can for as long as it holds my enjoyment. I will do what I must in order to make each of my characters as powerful and developed as I find possible, then I am going to compete and compete, and roleplay and explore to my hearts content, until I grow bored, or something else.
If my grinding turns your stomach, and I beat you, then know you will have beaten by a player of Guild Wars in its fullest, and not a PvP frenzied child.
Know that I play this game like any other game, to experiance what it has to offer, and if it is competitive to be the best. If I cannot that will not stop me trying, if I have to run 1000's of kilometres ingame to get a weapon/skill whatever that I want then that choice is mine, and being the player I am I will do it with no qualms.
Unfortunatly for you I am not a 'veteran' of Counter Strike or any of those other isntant gratification titles. Rather I have played games like final fantasy, Morrowind, and most fittingly, Eve-Online. Thus I know that 1000's of hours devoted to a game can yields far more rewards, regardless of the game, as long as I am any good. Eve-online is a beautiful example, you ever played it? Takes about a month before you can have a hope to pvp and not lose horrifically, i have playing that game for two years and have experianced multiple wars, on the scale of a few opposed friendly groups to 10,000+ player wars... Know that I show dedictation and determination in all games, and if you do not, I will have the advantage in sheer spirit alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNakedOne

Your response may be that the difference is that PvE players will have *earned* their greater power. In reply, I say that this is a false sense of accomplishment. What is involved in "earning" the Elite Skills is nothing at all to do with challenge and skill, and everything to do with time wasting..

Again your comments insult me and the games I play, please engage your brain at some point in a post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNakedOne

Meanwhile, those who are purely interested in the highly involving PvP tactics GW can provide will have a severely worse experience, under the current system. That they can have all the skills "for free" hurts me not at all. I'll have my fun developing my character PvE, and bring him over to PvP as I feel like it. I'll have a good challenge trying to beat any player with access to more skills than me - whether through Instant-Access or through more time devoted. I'll have fun crushing those who think they can take "the best" skills through Instant-Access and feel "leet," because I'll have superior wits, tactics, and experience.Certainly there will be players who are drawn to both aspects of the game - I would be one of them. On the other hand, not every player who is going to PvP, yet is interested in PvE, will feel his ego threatened after losing to someone purely because of access to a greater skills set. Heck, as it is now this is already going to happen, and be the case, because I'm not going to spend more than an hour every other day of the week grinding away..

Well if you are going to play the role play aspect of this game at all then you are going to get skills as a reward. Perhaps you should take the time to learn about the entire game, before you post on any aspect of it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNakedOne

Meanwhile, those who are purely interested in the highly involving PvP tactics GW can provide will have a severely worse experience, under the current system. That they can have all the skills "for free" hurts me not at all. I'll have my fun developing my character PvE, and bring him over to PvP as I feel like it. I'll have a good challenge trying to beat any player with access to more skills than me - whether through Instant-Access or through more time devoted. I'll have fun crushing those who think they can take "the best" skills through Instant-Access and feel "leet," because I'll have superior wits, tactics, and experience. .

Wrong, you should try leveling up in the arena's. Full of n00bs agreed, but fighting n00bs when you are seriously underpowered can be a lesson, even if its a lesson in how to wipe out multiple opponent class types with a single build.
Superior Wits means little if you have no exeriance of how Guild Wars plays. It will mean you will pick up the gameplay fast, perhaps, but having no intimate knowledge of the skills and classes and tactics of the game will mean you lose repeatedly. Learning to play Guild Wars will not happen instantly, you will need to invest time into just undertsanding the nuances of each build and skill. Which is another good point about the rate of skill release in PvE, you have the time and the AI opponents on which to test out every single new skill to its fullest potential at your own pace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNakedOne

That's why GW sold, and won so much acclaim from the testers - because it successfully eliminated a lot of that grind..

Alot yes, all of it? Because grind is a matter of opinion it would seem, that is impossible. Guild Wars sold on me because of the screenshots, and it was free. I knew little else about it but was buying games at the time and this looked worthy of a try at least.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNakedOne

But as it stands, it's just a waste of a time sink.

Well... I for one hope they dont change its format. If a.net are going to lose a lot of business over this, and it might affect their futures then they will make those decisions themselves. I would merely ask which player base should they consider most? Those guys who 'want' to ignore all the creative imagaination and inspirational effort put into this game, in favour of instant player versus player combat, the players most likely to quit if we are honest at the first sight of a better game or trouble. OR the gamers who appreaciate and admire the entire game, praise a.net for the wonderfully crafter gaming breath of fresh air they have delivered, and want to play it all over and over and hope that ALL of this game lasts as long as possible?
Tough choice....

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Don't bother arguing with the fool TheNakedOne, he hasn't made a single useful comment the entire thread, merely shown his ignorance.

Edit:
As to your suggestions for augmenting SoC naked, i could see the logic behind the first one if it was an actualy way to either show proficiency at the game or if it would keep players that don't show proficiency out of the competitive environment. It would be unable to do either though, because of the way pvp is structured. The best that you can do as a competitive gamer is to form teams where you trust each other, and if thats the case you don't need them to show their elites to trust them.

For the second, if you're already making a large enough concession to provide enough elite skills to be flexible in builds (20 sounds about right, but i'm sure others will have different numbers), the point of making the rest grind would be solely there to satisfy farming mentality...i'm against that on principle but i suppose its workable.

I'll point out once again (not directed at you naked) that this entire discussion would not be happening if skill trainers were at the same level of utility they had in the bwe's. Thats all it would take for pvpers to be happy with the game.

Laz

butcherboy · May 11, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Actually, if you get the *wrong* elite skill for your necro/monk you will have that skill for whatever PvP class that skill is for. Technically, no time is lost as eventually PvP folks will want to try other skill sets out thus you will have the skill already. Even to buy l33t skills PvP folks would still need to level to 20 to use them so what is a few more hours of l33t skill tracking?

Skills are not so elite if you can buy them from Wally Mart. If everyone has them how elite are they? They would just be another skill to collect.

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

And this, despite what all new people seem to think, is not a bad thing in the slightest.

Laz

Augy · May 11, 2005, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

And this, despite what all new people seem to think, is not a bad thing in the slightest.

opinion.

If they're to be made so freely available, then get rid of them altogether, or lessen their effects to be on par with normal skills (and obtainable like normal skills). The qualifier that they are "eilte" means they are special, and by definition within the framework of an adventure game, challenging to obtain.

You can't have both, and demanding both makes your arguments sounds like so many of the other "but I want teh l33t skillz now!!11!" posts.

If elites are as available as normals skills, they're no longer really elite, just buffed up abilities for impatient PvP kiddies.

If we make elites available from the skill vendors, you might as well make rare yellow items available from the weapon vendors, and rare crafting stuff available from the material traders.

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

opinion.

Game balance fact.

The name elite simply means they're limited to one per skillbar, its a gameplay mechanic and nothing more.

If elites are available and they were never 'elite' as in special but simply part of the overall balance mechanic, how are they buffed up abilities for impatient pvp kiddies instead of say just another aspect of the game?

Yellows are not supposed to have any significant impact in terms of gameplay. If they did i'd argue against their use in pvp. Rare crafting stuff is there for pve almost exclusively as pvp chars have no need of it, so i'm not following what you're trying to say there.

Runes are a bigger issue than either of the things you brought up, and your argument amounts to 'if its so easy to get x, then make y easy too even if it doesn't have bearing on the facet of gameplay that making x available affects".

Laz

Siren · May 11, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

And also, we need to keep in mind that Beta/Alpha is Beta/Alpha for a reason. It's the game in development, and doesn't necessarily reflect what ANet will be doing for the final release. There's no doubt in my mind that the state of the Skill vendors in Beta was for a reason: the Beta Experience. That's it. What we experienced in Beta was almost guaranteed to change, so I can't imagine why people are so shocked.

And the fact that the Skill vendors were overhauled for the retail release just confirms what the Beta was: early feedback and testing...and also gives us an idea what kind of direction ANet is taking with GW.

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

That argument has been brought up again and again. Is it so hard to belive that a.net made a mistake with its choice to change the skill acquisition system, blindsiding all the people that were happy with the way the game worked in the beta?

That they changed it only shows that a.net believed this mechanic was superior for whatever reason, that doesn't make it necessarily true.

Laz

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 11, 2005, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackell

I'm not pitting you against the world. I didn't say the whole community vs you. I said that that's what this thread is turned into. One big flame war, no side is going to budge, and flames and trolling has started to run rampant.

I said you because, like you said, your the most vocal.

Don't even act like you're being civil Jackell, you were among the first ones to start flaming and trolling people. Don't make me copy and paste your early posts in this thread, it's beneath the both of us.

But seriously, all grind complaints and opposition to the grind complaints aside.... Can't you guys on the opposition agree that the skill capturing system isn't user friendly at all? I mean it's a really clunky unweildy system.

First there is no in game clue or direction telling you where you can find a boss with these elites. Instead you have to go to an outside source (forums) to find your information. For those of you into roleplaying, doesn't that just break the immersion at all?

"I am on a quest to seek a powerful spell! but first I must surf the forums to discern it's location!"

I mean, the game basically tosses a signet at you and shoves you off onyour own to wander aimlessly looking for these skills. Bad game design. There should always be something in game to point you in the right direction especially for something as important as Elite skills. And please no more bullcrap about Elites only being for Elite players. I'm so sick of that elitist attitude and it has no place in a game designed for casual players...or any game for that matter.

Why not tie the current skills quests to Elite skills requiring you to capture the skills from the boss that the quest is pointing you too in addition to any other objective?

I really don't know how you can argue that it's a good system especially since everything else in GW is so user friendly. It just doesnt fit and it really is adding to the tedium. You may or may not disagree with the tedious part, but I can't see how anyone can say it's good game design. The concept is nice but the execution is crap.

Augy · May 11, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Game balance fact.

oh? So you must be a game developer, and an expert on game mechanics. Please, tell us which projects you've worked on, in what capacity you've contributed, and how many years experience you have in the field so we can examine your assertions.

When your done giving us your resume, then explain why the developers of this game saw it fit to do the exact opposite.

Quote:

The name elite simply means they're limited to one per skillbar, its a gameplay mechanic and nothing more.

If elites are available and they were never 'elite' as in special but simply part of the overall balance mechanic, how are they buffed up abilities for impatient pvp kiddies instead of say just another aspect of the game?.

huh? The elite skills pack more punch and do more stuff than the ordinary skills. Thats easily confirmed by reading the descriptions found on this website.

Quote:

Yellows are not supposed to have any significant impact in terms of gameplay. If they did i'd argue against their use in pvp. Rare crafting stuff is there for pve almost exclusively as pvp chars have no need of it, so i'm not following what you're trying to say there.

wha? Aren't you the same guy that posted this:

"Point. Getting to level 20 with full armor and appropriate weapons, skills and runes does not make you a god, but it does give you a serious advantage that thereby requires all people who wish to be competitive to have equivalent items/skills."

back on page 7? So which is it? Are you going to start arguing against them now?

Quote:

Runes are a bigger issue than either of the things you brought up, and your argument amounts to 'if its so easy to get x, then make y easy too even if it doesn't have bearing on the facet of gameplay that making x available affects".

but it DOES have a bearing, by your very own admission. Since you're an advocate of handing out serious advantages so freely, I thought I would illustrate the ridiculousness of the position by relating it to other rare, hard to get items in the game.

eventhorizen · May 11, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Listen, my ignorance is matched and surpassed only by your arrogance.

Cant you understand that there is a lot more to this game than PvP? That is the reason why choosing a PvP character does not unlock every skill for that proffession. Tbh I dont see why making these skills more predictable and easier to find does anything to enhance the game.

It will certainly affect the gameplay/content aspect of the game if they get sold via vendors. Instead of 'adventuring' to get them you farm money to buy them. Giving PvP only builds access to them will unbalance the game, regardless of what you think. And making them predictable and having forum guides by the dozen pointing out their location will make the whole thing pointless.

So you dont want to 'grind' to get them? Honestly so what? Do you honestly beleive people showing so little respect for this game should be able to influence it in anyway, I dont.
Dry your eyes Lazarus, in the time you have taken to write this whining garbage you could found multiple Elite skills. Stop rocking the boat because your an impatient want it now loser, and go play the game.

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augy

oh? So you must be a game developer, and an expert on game mechanics. Please, tell us which projects you've worked on, in what capacity you've contributed, and how many years experience you have in the field so we can examine your assertions.

When your done giving us your resume, then explain why the developers of this game saw it fit to do the exact opposite.

huh? The elite skills pack more punch and do more stuff than the ordinary skills. Thats easily confirmed by reading the descriptions found on this website.

wha? Aren't you the same guy that posted this:

"Point. Getting to level 20 with full armor and appropriate weapons, skills and runes does not make you a god, but it does give you a serious advantage that thereby requires all people who wish to be competitive to have equivalent items/skills."

back on page 7? So which is it? Are you going to start arguing against them now?

but it DOES have a bearing, by your very own admission. Since you're an advocate of handing out serious advantages so freely, I thought I would illustrate the ridiculousness of the position by relating it to other rare, hard to get items in the game.

My resume is that i have a modicum of logic. Were the elites not a balance mechanic, then pvp would turn into a slugging match between the various elite skills. Its not, they're simply one facet of the gameplay there.

A few of the elite skills are essentially upgraded versions of other, non-elite skills. The majority offer a certain class mechanic not seen otherwise. Marksmans wager, grenths balance are two good examples of that.

As to my assertion that people who have 'proper equipment' at level 20 would be more powerful, i'm not comparing level 20 equipment of various grades. The grades should offer little to no benefit realistically. I'm comparing the level 20 weaponry to level 10 weaponry/shields that has lower base damage/defense.

As to its bearing on the discussion, you're missing the point i made about the other two options you listed being largely irrelevant to competitive pvp. A solid level 20 pvp weapon that you get simply for creating a pvp character is not going to be significantly weaker than an uber rare yellow item of the same type. Rare crafting components don't affect pvp chars again because their armor is already there.

Skills and runes on the other hand DO affect their balance directly because they matter a whole lot more to the character. And again, all grind does is raise the entry bar for competitive pvp. If a character doesn't have appropriate runes and elites (hell, even just skills) for their build and they face someone that does, they're at a disadvantage. Thus, all people who want to be on an even playing field will either grind out what they need or they will stop playing.

Making elites easier to get does not affect people who like to grind. they can still get their SoC and farm to their hearts content. That you can get a skill more easily does not invalidate another game mechanic if you like the alternative game mechanic more.

PvPers aren't trying to force people who like pve to play their game, but the reverse is absolutely not true as can be seen by this thread.

Quote:

Listen, my ignorance is matched and surpassed only by your arrogance.

So, so true.

Laz

Siren · May 11, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

That argument has been brought up again and again. Is it so hard to belive that a.net made a mistake with its choice to change the skill acquisition system, blindsiding all the people that were happy with the way the game worked in the beta?

That they changed it only shows that a.net believed this mechanic was superior for whatever reason, that doesn't make it necessarily true.

Laz

Laz, use common sense. Does it make any sense whatsoever for gamers to treat something in Beta--that was clearly in place as a means for enabling gamers to experience the game so they can provide accurate and fuller feedback, this much cannot be denied--as something they would see in the final retail?

ANet blindsided nobody, Laz. You, and any others so "blindsided" or "shocked" by the change, were blinding yourselves, so don't blame ANet for something you (and by "you," I mean you) misread to begin with. It was clear to everyone playing Beta that we were experiencing a preliminary build of the game--that's what Beta is.

To refer to Beta--a testing environment, let's be completely realistic here--and claim that ANet somehow screwed over players by changing a temporary system is largely ignoring the fundamental reasons why the skill vendors were how they were in Beta to begin with, those fundamental reasons including giving the testers/gamers a full plate, as it were, so they could adequately gauge how the game was coming along.

Nowhere in any Beta was there ever any indication that we should expect the Beta status of skill vendors for the final retail version.

Any who claim they were so blindsided by the change were fooling themselves, simple as that.

Your (and others') criticisms of the change are why I called so many of you crybabies...because you're just whining. Your criticisms are largely illegitimate, because the only way for your argument to remain remotely valid is if we are all operating under some delusional pre-misconception that a skill system in Beta is going to remain intact, even though it was very clearly designed that way for the preliminary builds exclusively.

I don't mean to sound harsh, Laz, but your thesis itself is critically flawed.

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Nowhere in any Beta was there ever any indication that we should expect the Beta status of skill vendors for the final retail version.

And nowhere was there any indication that they'd gut the skill traders. You're acting like they posted a big sign saying 'enjoy your easy skill acquisition while it lasts, grind will be coming in its place'.

Thats not the case.

You're calling us crybabies because you either don't care about pvp or don't mind the massive time sinks required to get on an even playing field for it. Those that are complaining do so, as i have said numerous times, because this game was marketed as pvp-friendly, low to no grind. They changed that so their marketing is false. They can either listen to the complaints and offer some olive branch to those like me, or they can ignore us and lose our future business.

In what way is this thesis flawed?

Laz

Augy · May 11, 2005, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

My resume is that i have a modicum of logic.

So in other words, your'e not speaking from a standpoint of informed knowledge or experience, but stating an opinion, as originally posted. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

And as for the elites themselves, if they were not better than ordinary skills, as you wrote, they would indeed fill the skillbars of many, and elite nuking matches would occur. So they limited them to one per bar. Why? Because they are better than ordinary skills, as also orginally posted.

Quote:

Making elites easier to get does not affect people who like to grind. they can still get their SoC and farm to their hearts content. That you can get a skill more easily does not invalidate another game mechanic if you like the alternative game mechanic more.

PvPers aren't trying to force people who like pve to play their game, but the reverse is absolutely not true as can be seen by this thread.

Thats because this IS AN ADVENTURE GAME. You must ADVENTURE to get your stuff. That's been the paradigm for EVERY SAME KIND OF GAME since there were MUDs you could log into with your 2400 baud high-speed modem, and people could PvP on those. Like I keep trying to tell you, you want to play a different game, and those games exist, but they aren't titled Guild Wars.

For the lub of jebus. You can log into these forums, go right to the mob with the skill you want, in the zone you need, and in a couple of hours get the coveted l33t skill. And thats a problem why? "Because im a twitchy kid and I wanna buy it!"

This thread is bunk. Listening to the vocal few, we can learn the following about the state of GW:

Its hundreds of hours of grind. Thousands. Perhaps even millions.

SoC is teh suxxorz.

Rare items dont matter in PvP.

Rare items do matter in PvP.

PvPers are a poor, oppressed minority that must be liberated for democracy.

PvPers are acutally genius closet game developers, but were passed over because they are a poor, opressed minority.

All MMOs should consider PvP first, then the rest of the game.

GW is not an MMO.

And there you have it. kthxbye.