Curse

mtxed · May 10, 2005, 09:45 PM // 21:45

To all the casual gamers out there, you expect to buy a game, play it a few hours a week and be at the same level as hardcore gamers? Pfft.... this is NOT the right game for you.. you gotta work for your reward.. no one's going to hand you some elite skills and items just because you can't afford to invest time into the game.. understand that these type of games require time and if you don't have time, dont play it, or play it and dont complain because others have rare items and skills..

Suggestion? To satisfy all these casual gamers.. make elite skills 25000 gold.. Reason for such a high cost is the same reason for making it so hard and time consuming to get the skills: you have to earn it. If you dont earn it, then you better pay a huge amount.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 10, 2005, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Hardly the case with me, ETM. Just to inject some humor, I've bolded and underlined a particular statement that I find amusing, lol. With the thirty posts just today in this thread, I think that statement applies to all of us here, regardless of our inclination to PvE and/or PvP

I appreciate the humour Siren and you're one of the more civil posters in this discussion (other than the crybabies comment) but I'm posting here and there from work. So yeah maybe I have time to waste during work to post here, but when I get home I only have a couple of hours to play GW. Posting here and there, especially from work during breaks, hardly equals to the time wasted trying to capture skills with the current system. I obviously can't play GW at work.

Bamelin · May 10, 2005, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtxed

The point of these MMO games is to consume your time. You are suppose to dedicate time in unlocking items and runes. They are rare and sometimes difficult to find for a reason. It's what keeps people playing and playing and playing. If you dont have the time or dedication to hunt items, then don't play GW. Or don't complain when someone owns your ass because they spent more time playing. GW will never be balanced. There will always be someone with an advantage. There will always be someone with a better item or a better skill. It's obvious with these types of games that time = power. More time invested into the game, more things unlocked. And that's basically the challenge.

If you don't like that, you're playing the wrong genre. Like others suggested, go play FPS games, it's all even and fair.

Guild Wars is not an MMO.

Guild Wars has been advertised as being (player) skill based rather than time based.

You are admitting they lied in their marketing?

As for your "Your're playing the wrong genre" comment ... when exactly did you become the authority on how MMO's (or games such as GuildWars) should be played? Just because YOU think time should = skill doesn't mean the REST of us do.

Guild Wars was working FINE during the BWE's when skills were easy to get so don't give me that garbage that it could never work/to difficult to code/etc ...

They proved an entirely player skill driven PvP RPG could work in the BWE's.

goku19123 · May 10, 2005, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtxed

To all the casual gamers out there, you expect to buy a game, play it a few hours a week and be at the same level as hardcore gamers? Pfft.... this is NOT the right game for you.. you gotta work for your reward.. no one's going to hand you some elite skills and items just because you can't afford to invest time into the game.. understand that these type of games require time and if you don't have time, dont play it, or play it and dont complain because others have rare items and skills..

Suggestion? To satisfy all these casual gamers.. make elite skills 25000 gold.. Reason for such a high cost is the same reason for making it so hard and time consuming to get the skills: you have to earn it. If you dont earn it, then you better pay a huge amount.

In the forums during Beta and such, Arena.net clearly said that casual gamers will be able to stay competitive(period). And for the last time, no one is asking for a hand out, and 25k gold is fine with me, I said vast amounts of gold for a reason.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 10, 2005, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Here I'm going to help out some future posters who are going to troll here with their standard lines:

1) Go play an FPS like CS you lazy jerk!

2) Of course you should grind you should WORK for your stuff! This is an RPG, you jerk!

3) (which contradicts number 2) There is no grind! Spending hours and hours getting one skill is FUN, you jerk!

4) You just want everything handed to you on a silver platter, you stupid jerk!

Feel free to add your own lines... and now that's out of the way, can we please have some discussions where those same old lines aren't brought up in every other post?

Loviatar · May 10, 2005, 10:40 PM // 22:40

there is a very big difference between being *competitive* meaning you can play for fun and
*COMPETITIVE* as in our guild has a shot at being the top of the world ladder

one is a friendly pickup game and the other is the major leagues

you are acting as if just because they wont give you the best equipment they are keeping you from the stardom of the majors.

if you dont have the time to properly equip your character you certainly dont have the hours/day needed for practice to be competitive at the top levels (unless you think you are that superior to the other players)

Siren · May 10, 2005, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

Okay, this for decog, and anyone else who thinks vendors carrying elite skills is amiss in some way.

I define the phrase "casual gamer" in two ways:
1) the kind of person who picks it up every now and than, and puts it down as easily for real world obligations
2) the kind of person who has real world obligations holding them back from hours of gameplay

Now, having elite skills at vendors for vast sums of gold and a skill point IN ADDITION THE SOC SYSTEM, would not only give people a way around the gold cost, but would now give the casual gamer a way to slowly work for elites that they can't get by hunting because of time constraints. Either way your going to have to spend time getting to where you want to be, and no, having them at vendors is not giving people everything all at once. Clearly your not going to go into pre-searing ascalon and by an elite, they would be scaled by town/outpost all the way to the end game.

goku, again, I'd like to point out that by adding in another system to acquire Elite skills, you're doing nothing to actually solve the problem of the SoC system. All you're doing is bypassing it, and bypassing it isn't a viable option here, because the system itself needs to be tweaked, because it is a viable system in concept (and to scrap it entirely would be a shame). Even as an alternative to the SoC system, adding in Elite skill vendors is missing the point entirely. Do you get what I'm saying?

All the Elite skill vendor idea would be doing is further complicating things. What needs to be done is some type of streamline to the SoC system, the most feasible (and I think most here are agreed on it being the best) solution is a Quest-based Elite SoC system.

It's nice that you All-Capped that sentence in your post there, but it's not as if I don't understand what you're saying. I do understand, and that's why I'm debating it.

Quote:

Now, having elite skills at vendors for vast sums of gold and a skill point IN ADDITION THE SOC SYSTEM, would not only give people a way around the gold cost.

Again, let's look at the implications of these two clauses here. Selling Elite skills for vast sums of gold and a skill point gives people a way around the gold cost. You're suggesting selling skills at high prices, which would require players to amass loads of gold...and this allows them to bypass the gold cost how? They're nabbing gold specifically for the purpose of buying skills. How are they working around the gold cost? You're selling the skills.

Quote:

Now, having elite skills at vendors for vast sums of gold and a skill point IN ADDITION THE SOC SYSTEM, would not only give people a way around the gold cost, but would now give the casual gamer a way to slowly work for elites that they can't get by hunting because of time constraints.

Here's what I see when I read the sentence I bolded: I see a suggestion that does nothing to alleviate any grind at all. I see a suggestion that merely adds another grind but is labeled a solution or an alternative. Plus, it really isn't the casual gamer that has the major issues here. It's the powergamers that do. Furthermore, a slow "Grind" for Elite skills is precisely what people here don't want, so how is your suggestion viable at all? It goes against what people are asking for.

At least with the Quest-based SoC suggestion, the casual gamer (or powergamer) doesn't have to go farming, nor does he/she have to spend hours and/or mow down high-level mobs to get one skill. You would earn the Elite skills by completing the missions, which would be more difficult than the "regular" ones, but still do-able without being required to be Level 20.

Quote:

Not one suggestion so far has been to give someone everything all at once, so lets drop that from the list of reasons, shall we?

Selling Elite skills in vendors...that's giving someone everything all at once, and on more than one occasion have others (who are critical of the current state of the SoC system, mind) dismissed that idea, Blackace included, I believe. It's like buying research papers off of random Insta-Paper sites rather than researching and writing the paper on your own.

Quote:

Edit: And, for the record, if your going to mention my suggestions, you better be damn sure you have my FULL suggestion down, mentioning it in a halfassed way and picking it apart is childish.

goku, no offense, and don't take this the wrong way, but the majority of your posts is simply irrelevant and unnecessary. I know I pick-out specific sentences for a valid reason: the rest of your post is a waste of space, lol, and doesn't serve to focus your argument at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamelin

And the problem with that is ... ?

The problem is it does nothing to remove a grind. All it does is create a game-long grind. Now, don't get me wrong; I'm not naive enough to think that all MMORPGs of any brand, flavor, style, etc., are going to be completely bereft of a grind, but so far, the only suggestion offered in this thread that is the least of a total gold-grind, game-grind, farm-grind is a Quest-based Elite SoC system.

Everything else is going to require the players to massive timesink, especially selling Elite skills for elite prices, on high-level vendors, near the end-game. All that will do is further encourage players to grind to Level 20 so they can achieve that high-level content. It does nothing to deepen the game; it just creates a one-dimensional "I'ma gonna level up real fast so I can buy those nifty Elite skills at Ascension."

Or am I the only one who sees that potential (and honestly, I think it's far more guaranteed than only potential)?

Augy · May 10, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamelin

Guild Wars is not an MMO.

I'm sorry, but it is. It has all the characteristics of any other mmo, i.e. an economy, character advancement system, storyline, combat system (pvp and pve), dedicated forums and player inventory just to name a few. Just because the mechanics of the actual gameplay differ from most other "traditional" mmo's, it's still massive, it's still multiplayer, it's still online, and it's still a role playing game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamelin

Guild Wars has been advertised as being (player) skill based rather than time based.

You are admitting they lied in their marketing?

Marketers stretch the truth. While it is a fact that PvP is a skills and not level based system, it is apparent, especially from the size of this thread, that uber pvpness requires a time investment greater than clicking on the pvp option during character creation.

Only a small, deluded minority think that time =! skill. Lets just pretend you start off with every skill, every rune, every item from day one, you would still have to invest time overcoming the learning curve to just know what your skills do, how they affect other classes, to what degree your items factor in, how to best optimize your runes, the tactical advantages/disadvatages of each map, coordinating tactics with other players, experimenting with builds suitable to play style, etc, etc, etc. I imagine the majority of the "free time" taken for the current top guilds to reach their lofty positions was spent figuring the above out, regardless of the fact if they had to "grind" their builds.

No matter how you slice it, you're going to need to put some time in. The subject being debated, in reality, is that people find that pvp learning curve very enjoyable, and the now-required steps to get there (pve) not so enjoyable.

If you are a big fan of one or the other, GW may not be everything to you. Hardcore PvE'ers should go play EQ, and grind hundreds of hours to satisfy their sense of mental sadism. Likewise, hardcore PvP'ers should go play on the most obnoxious CS server they can find. For those of us who enjoy both aspects, there's GW.

goku19123 · May 11, 2005, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Seriously, if your going to quote me, again, know what your talking about. All you do is piece together quotes of ideas, in a halfassed manner, completely ignoring the whole piece.

I said to scale the vendors from Ascalon post-searing, to the end game, not just the end game, good job on that one.

How is putting them on vendors giving them away all at once? Oh...it isn't, good job on that one.

Regular skills cost gold+ 1 skill point, why should elites not be sold starting at 3000 gold and scaling up by 1000 gold for each consecutive purchase of an elite skill + 1 skill point.

Moreover, turing the SoC into an official quest is a good idea, THAT'S WHY I SAID IT 3 PAGES AGO (actually, page 6 to be precise), YOU KNOW, WHEN I LISTED ALL THE SUGGESTIONS UP TO THAT POINT - AWESOME JOB ON THAT ONE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by siren

Selling Elite skills in vendors...that's giving someone everything all at once, and on more than one occasion have others (who are critical of the current state of the SoC system, mind) dismissed that idea, Blackace included, I believe. It's like buying research papers off of random Insta-Paper sites rather than researching and writing the paper on your own.

Wow...who cares who doesn't like the idea, not everyong is going to go for the same idea, that's obvious. What is also obvious is that selling at vendors is not "everything all at once."

What would also be an exceptable fix - LIKE I SAID PAGES AGO WHEN I MENTIONED ABOUT COMBINING IDEAS - would be the questing part + vendors, like it is for regular skills.

Seriously, from now on, at least read the posts you missed.

Edit: By the way, I still see the "people who want everything all at once go play CS" arguement still coming up...lets stop using, since clearly no one is asking for anything all at once. I think a good question here is: For those who think some suggestions are "everything all at once," what is your definition of "everything all at once?"

Because, and if I'm wrong feel free to correct, some tend to think that putting vendors scaled from post-searing Ascalon to the end game with elite skills and a price tag that scales upward is "everything all at once." I'm also not sure if these people read or skim either, but I'm leaning towards skim since many things (such as the questing for elites part) I had covered already, as well as combination suggestions.

But what is more important, is that people keep coming up with different ideas so that some sort of middle ground can be reached. That's all I've been asking for, is more/varied suggestions, all you guys do is rip each other up and I don't like ripping on people but I think we can all be more positive about this, at least more positive than telling people to go play another game.

Keure · May 11, 2005, 02:34 AM // 02:34

OK, I'd prefer not to get caught up in this...friendly discussion here, but I would like to offer a suggestion.

One of the complaints regarding PvE is that it doesn't take much learning to be proficient at it, and that the single biggest constraint for getting stuff from PvE is time.

Right now, I'm thinking about making a bunch of short, but extremely difficult scenarioes for the specific purpose of unlocking everything for PvP.

The biggest constraint for unlocking content then shifts from time invested to the ingenuity, awareness and skill level of the player. To unlock everything, all you gotta do is beat these scenarioes. And again, they must be hard.

I was thinking that there could be preset characters for each scenario, with set equipment and a small pool of skills to draw from. Objectives would differ widely and there could be other constraints, such as having no energy regeneration, having enemies with perpetual buffs, other stuff like that.

The closest parallels to my idea would be those chess puzzles where the board is in a certain arrangement, and you have a goal under certain constraints (mate in 5 without losing any pieces, for example).

This avoids having some PvP system with farming for points and whatnot and makes it strictly objective-based; heck, this idea also doesn't rely on *any* grind at all. No having to repeat long mission maps just because the appropriate boss didn't spawn. No having to (mindlessly) farm for runes. This should be kept hard enough to not be boring either. These short scenarioes should also ease frustration that comes from losing an hour of time only to fail close to the end (like what can happen in missions).

Unfortunately, this idea also has a couple of flaws. This is simple in theory but difficult in execution. Not only does this require new content to be made, but this new content needs to be made well. This idea also doesn't necessarily build PvP prowess - though individual player skills (healing a party efficiently, as an example) could be developed from completing these scenarioes.

Siren · May 11, 2005, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

Seriously, if your going to quote me, again, know what your talking about. All you do is piece together quotes of ideas, in a halfassed manner, completely ignoring the whole piece.

I said to scale the vendors from Ascalon post-searing, to the end game, not just the end game, good job on that one.

How is putting them on vendors giving them away all at once? Oh...it isn't, good job on that one.

Regular skills cost gold+ 1 skill point, why should elites not be sold starting at 3000 gold and scaling up by 1000 gold for each consecutive purchase of an elite skill + 1 skill point.

Moreover, turing the SoC into an official quest is a good idea, THAT'S WHY I SAID IT 3 PAGES AGO (actually, page 6 to be precise), YOU KNOW, WHEN I LISTED ALL THE SUGGESTIONS UP TO THAT POINT - AWESOME JOB ON THAT ONE.

Wow...who cares who doesn't like the idea, not everyong is going to go for the same idea, that's obvious. What is also obvious is that selling at vendors is not "everything all at once."

What would also be an exceptable fix - LIKE I SAID PAGES AGO WHEN I MENTIONED ABOUT COMBINING IDEAS - would be the questing part + vendors, like it is for regular skills.

Seriously, from now on, at least read the posts you missed.

goku, if my replies have been based on some blatantly incorrect misinterpretation of your posts, I apologize, but I will call attention to the following posts of yours:

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123, previously in the thread

3) Contrary to the few people who said gold grinding is tedius: There is no gold grind. If you are at Lion's Arch with 2.5k gold, please, don't downplay an idea. By the end game many people have over 40k gold, yes it accumulates quickly. For those who think skills trainers selling elites at an exaggerated price is a gold grind, for your knowledge base, the higher armor at Copperhead Mines costs 15k a piece, times 5...Oh...75k gold for a new set of armor - just putting in perspective.

I'd like to point out your mention of the end game there. You were focusing solely on high-level content (40k gold, Copperhead Mines armor), so I'd hardly think it's some fault of my own when I treated your post (and following posts) as dealing specifically with high-level vendors selling Elite skills near or at the end game.

Again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123, previously in the thread

Does it really matter if someone SoC's an elite they searched for, or bought that same elite from a vendor for a skill point and vast some of gold? No one is asking for everything right now, for the last time. There needs to be modifications so that you can get elite skills in other ways. Having the SoC AND being able to purchase them is the same kind of time sink - either way your going to spend time trying to get the elite skill.

Where did you specify at all what you were talking about (the scaled Elite vendors)? Again, unintentional ambiguity in your posts is going to lead to misinterpretations, goku, and again, I was operating under a perfectly sound interpretation, because your posts were exceedingly poorly written. goku, I don't mean to sound harsh here, but you're blaming me for a fault of your own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123, previously in this thread

Now, having elite skills at vendors for vast sums of gold and a skill point IN ADDITION THE SOC SYSTEM, would not only give people a way around the gold cost, but would now give the casual gamer a way to slowly work for elites that they can't get by hunting because of time constraints. Either way your going to have to spend time getting to where you want to be, and no, having them at vendors is not giving people everything all at once. Clearly your not going to go into pre-searing ascalon and by an elite, they would be scaled by town/outpost all the way to the end game.

You had posted this on page 7, and it was the first time you had mentioned anything remotely close to scaling the Elite vendors. Keep in mind, as well, that you mentioned scaling in the very last sentence of the paragraph, so it's not as if it was a recurring theme through the entire post--or at least you failed to make your recurring theme clear. Again, goku, sloppy writing on your part, no offense.

Now, had your posts been well-written, clear, and concise all the way through, I could see how people could be entirely wrong in assuming you were saying something that ultimately you were not. But the fact remains that your posts have not been well-written, nor have they been clear, nor have they been concise, so I'd highly recommend that before you go getting your panties into a twist and screaming bloody murder, as it were, you may want to re-evaluate your posting habits, because as it stands now, some of your posts are nearly unreadable...and I'm an English major.

Not to sound pompous or anything, because I really don't enjoy that, but I've been studying Literature and have immersed myself in Lit Theory for a solid five years now, so I know my way around writing, and it would take an abysmally scattered and unfocused piece of writing for me to misinterpret anything. Take this however you will, but in the larger scheme of this thread...you've only articulated your idea once, and that was within your last two posts.

Quote:

Edit: By the way, I still see the "people who want everything all at once go play CS" arguement still coming up...lets stop using, since clearly no one is asking for anything all at once. I think a good question here is: For those who think some suggestions are "everything all at once," what is your definition of "everything all at once?"

Because, and if I'm wrong feel free to correct, some tend to think that putting vendors scaled from post-searing Ascalon to the end game with elite skills and a price tag that scales upward is "everything all at once." I'm also not sure if these people read or skim either, but I'm leaning towards skim since many things (such as the questing for elites part) I had covered already, as well as combination suggestions.

And again, I refer you to above. Had you typed what you meant throughout the thread, and made it clear what you meant, there would have never been any confusion to begin with.

Quote:

But what is more important, is that people keep coming up with different ideas so that some sort of middle ground can be reached. That's all I've been asking for, is more/varied suggestions, all you guys do is rip each other up and I don't like ripping on people but I think we can all be more positive about this, at least more positive than telling people to go play another game.

I haven't been ripping people up. What I have been doing, however, is merely providing some type of counterargument to various suggestions, so half-baked suggestions can be...fully baked.

Quote:

Regular skills cost gold+ 1 skill point, why should elites not be sold starting at 3000 gold and scaling up by 1000 gold for each consecutive purchase of an elite skill + 1 skill point.

I wanted to focus on this statement, as well, because I don't believe that's an improvement, either. Say you have Energy Drain for sale at Piken Square or Nolani Academy. For an average (i.e., casual) player, I don't think it's unreasonable that they would have somewhere around 1200 gold at that point--but if they want to buy just one Elite skill, they're going to need to grind another 1800 gold. You've described this idea as enabling players to avoid cash grinds...but I'd say that's radically far from the reality of an implementation of that system, and others have shared my sentiments earlier in this thread, so it's not just me.

goku, you've discarded criticisms of your idea simply on the basis that not everyone will like all ideas...but what you're failing to realize is that perhaps the reason people aren't flocking to your idea like salmon is because your idea is simply yet another crap grind, lol.

My Final Thoughts:

You know, I think it's become sickeningly clear to everyone here that there is a solution to the SoC system, something that everyone is peachy with:

The Quest-based Elite system.

EDIT: Keure, I like that idea. =) Even if it may not be entirely feasible, it sounds fun.

Acidalia · May 11, 2005, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Yet there is a TON of grinding compared to guild wars beta weekend events (even discounting the all skills unlocked function of the last two).

Frankly, I could not care less about lineage 2 grind; I was sold on this game because it lacked grind almost completely in the bwe - that isn't true anymore.

Laz

Guess you never played any other online RPG's before.
Compare to all others, there is no grind in Guildwars.

Like someone said before, this is a RPG and not a Fantasy FPS.
Go play Counterstrike...

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Like someone said before, this is a RPG and not a Fantasy FPS.
Go play Counterstrike...

Wow. You replay to something 4 pages back and then use this response. Thanks for making me laugh.

Laz

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Keure - its a valid idea, but as you point out there are a bunch of difficulties involved with creating challenges that have some relevance to pvp yet are still scripted. I can see things like healing timing challenges, Burst DPS challenges, a few other things. Making benchmarks wouldn't be *that* difficult, but would of necessity reward certain builds and playstyles over others. How do you challenge a minion necro effectively? Most corpses raised?

Its an intriguing proposition but seems a lot less likely to happen than some of the easier to implement changes (which are essentially reversion to an earlier build of skill vendor).

Laz

Jackell · May 11, 2005, 04:50 AM // 04:50

7 pages, and still this.

No matter what we say, and how many points we make, Laz is going to be convinced that this is a grind, and he's going to hate it.

I say we stop before this flame fest turns into a war and brings us all down.

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 05:03 AM // 05:03

Don't try to pit this as me against the world. I may have been the most vocal, but that doesn't mean i'm anywhere near alone on this.

As to points being made in defense of SoC, they all boil down to 'i like pve, the system works in pve, so it shouldn't be changed and/or augmented by something else."

I have yet to see a convincing argument against returning the skill trainers to their beta levels of usefulness, and thats really all the anti-soc lobby is pushing for through this entire thread.

Laz

edit: damn my timing is good, first post on the 8th page

further edit: missed this

Quote:

Lazarous, you don't want to go there. Trust me on this. Chess is not some pick-up-and-play boardgame like Checkers (and even Checkers is deceptively simple). Chess most definitely requires a time investment to become proficient at it, and to get to the fun parts. A beginner isn't going to stand a chance playing Bobby Fisher, but you're seemingly implying a newbie could put up an effective defense against Fisher.

I don't know how old you are, but there were Chess halls in NYC back in the 60s that my father frequented regularly, and understand that the regulars there could demolish most of the upstarts and newbies in under 15 minutes, and even less in speed Chess.

Chess requires just as much strategy and devotion as GuildWars, whether or not you believe it, and in fact, much of the approaches in speed Chess directly apply to tactics in GuildWars. Hell, GuildWars is a huge game of Chess at times.

Actually i do want to go there. Notice the common thread in the games i mentioned - you have access to all your 'abilities' from the start, it becomes a matter of proper utilization. Thats the gameplay experience that pvp guild wars offers and everyone seems dead set against providing easily.

Time investment to play chess is 0. You get your board, you get your pieces and you follow the very basic rules of the game - there, you could theoretically go up against Fischer as you state and have no inherent disadvantage. No inherent disadvantage - your personal skill determines how well you do.

The parallel in guild wars is trying to go up against Fischer, being a newbie, and not having your rooks and a few pawns. Yes you could in some amazingly bizarre universe beat him but the chances are even more unlikely than normal.

Or to take another parallel - you have Kasparov and Fischer playing, but one of them is forced to be down a piece because they were sick the week before and didn't have time to get it.

Thats what this hatred of SoC and grind revolves around. The endgame pvp in gw is great, it requires well thought out, well timed and coordinated moves. It requires a great deal of metagame knowledge and good situational awareness. It should not require stupidly long amounts of time to get a full chessboard.

Laz

Siren · May 11, 2005, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

As to points being made in defense of SoC, they all boil down to 'i like pve, the system works in pve, so it shouldn't be changed and/or augmented by something else."

Does that include what I've been saying? Even though I seriously do not have a problem with the current SoC system, I certainly am supportive of the Quest-based SoC change. I think it would be the icing on the cake.

Quote:

Actually i do want to go there. Notice the common thread in the games i mentioned - you have access to all your 'abilities' from the start, it becomes a matter of proper utilization. Thats the gameplay experience that pvp guild wars offers and everyone seems dead set against providing easily.

Time investment to play chess is 0. You get your board, you get your pieces and you follow the very basic rules of the game - there, you could theoretically go up against Fischer as you state and have no inherent disadvantage. No inherent disadvantage - your personal skill determines how well you do.

The parallel in guild wars is trying to go up against Fischer, being a newbie, and not having your rooks and a few pawns. Yes you could in some amazingly bizarre universe beat him but the chances are even more unlikely than normal.

Or to take another parallel - you have Kasparov and Fischer playing, but one of them is forced to be down a piece because they were sick the week before and didn't have time to get it.

Thats what this hatred of SoC and grind revolves around. The endgame pvp in gw is great, it requires well thought out, well timed and coordinated moves. It requires a great deal of metagame knowledge and good situational awareness. It should not require stupidly long amounts of time to get a full chessboard.

Laz

Thanks for elaborating on why you were making the analogy.

Now, I won't deny that it's tempting to draw a parallel between character abilities in GW and Chess pieces (because there certainly is a similarity in character dynamics there, I won't debate that), but as tempting as it is, there's a fundamental flaw in the analogy.

Chess pieces get killed. Permanently. Once they're gone, they're gone (unless, of course, you march a Pawn down to the opposing back row, but that's largely irrelevant anyway). If you lose a Bishop, Knight, Rook, etc., there's a very good chance you're never getting it back. The game is just as much attack as it is conservation and protection, but that dynamic is based on Chess not having Monks in place of Bishops...no Rezzes.

That isn't the case in GW. Unlike Chess, you have a limited skill set starting out, but also unlike Chess, your abilities (Pawns, Rooks, Knights, etc) aren't going to go bye-bye permanently should they get disabled (the GW equivalent of capturing). Once you have them, you have them, and no other player is going to be able to steal them from you (apart from Arcane Mimicry, but that's getting to a depth I simply don't have the energy to discuss at any length, lol. I'm sure you can sympathize.). Further unlike Chess is the fact that you build-up your "forces."

Regarding positioning and movement, yes, GW can certainly be influenced by various Chess techniques, but regarding overall game design, using Chess to argue a point is moot, because the foundation of GW is, I think, pretty clearly centered around a Magic: The Gathering type of system. The whole "critique my build" idea is identical to "critique my deck," not "critique my Chess set."

Plus, talking about Fischer dominating you (or Kasparov vs. Fischer in a similar scenario) even worse if you were missing pieces is irrelevant anyway, because Fischer would dominate no matter what. I really don't think it would make any difference if you, a newbie, were missing any pieces. The skill isn't even to begin with...so the number of pieces is pretty damn irrelevant.

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Chess is an analogy, nothing more. The key part is that the game is lessened if you don't have a full chessboard (or skillset) because you're lacking options that would otherwise be available.

Again, the argument is that soc needs to be supplemented by better skill trainers like those available in the bwe to not alienate a large chunk of the games population, not that chess rules can be used to determine high level pvp.

edit: i'm not opposed to making elites quest rewards, but it seems like it would require more work(new content) than simply reinstating something that was already there.

Laz

Jackell · May 11, 2005, 07:06 AM // 07:06

I'm not pitting you against the world. I didn't say the whole community vs you. I said that that's what this thread is turned into. One big flame war, no side is going to budge, and flames and trolling has started to run rampant.

I said you because, like you said, your the most vocal.

eventhorizen · May 11, 2005, 07:59 AM // 07:59

What Lazarus is trying to say is that because he has neither the desire, nor the spare time to play certain parts of this game that the rewards gained should be made easier to get by people like him at the expense of depth and complexity and atmosphere of the rest of the game.

Eve-Online anyone?