Curse

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by zemelett

If you want all your skills unlocked right from the start you should be playing a FPS where all you have to do is run around some map and find the super weapon then blast the hell out of everyone with it. Sure GW made it so you could unlock all the skills for the BWE but this is no longer BWE. Also IMO i like to have a chance to test out my skill set on the PvE parts and familiarize myself with the skills, which ones complement others best and stuff like that. That way when I go into a PvP battle I'm not casting spells willy nilly and wasting their potential!

Stop arguing with yourself and try to address the actual points people are making.

Loviatar · May 10, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

the best and easiest solution is to nerf the elites down to regular skill power and make them available as *horrible thought*

any other skill

problem solved everybody is happy because it is now a level playing field

as for runes and rare upgrades?

dont allow them in pvp at all making skill truly what counts

decog · May 10, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

For all the time it's taken to type those laborously long replies (i'm actually quite impressed) you could have unlocked all the skills in PvE already.

lol

.d

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

They've been balancing skills with elites in mind now for a while - removing them is probably non-trivial.

As to runes, i pretty much agree. Either make them a lot more available or remove them from competition.

Laz

Augy · May 10, 2005, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Then serperate pvp and pve completely and be done with it. In catering to the majority exclusively, they're seriously alienating the minority...and they don't have to.

If PvE is such an overwhelming majority it doesn't really matter if there is a completely dissociated set of pvpers, does it? PvE can go about questing or whatever it is they do in their spare time.

Again, thats NOT the nature of MMOs. The only seperation is electing to fight other live players or not. What you're asking for is 3D Nox, where you can just boot up the game and go at it. You are asking for two different games. If everything was made available so easily, then everyone would be level 20 with every item, rune and skill. The game would function for all about a week before you were left with PvPers whos sole interest is fighting each other. This game, like all other MMOs with a PvP aspect, has an electable option to do both, when you want to. There are plenty of MMOs where there is PvE exclusively. PvP adds the extra dimension to where you can use those items/skills you earned to actually kick another live player's ass, and thats fun. What you're asking for is everything be instantly available and disperate from the entire other side of the equation; then its no longer an MMO, its just Nox in 3D. If a developer saw a profit to be made in such a game, it would've been made by now I think.

Quote:

But forget that - make elites function like normal skills in that if you pass a certain area you gain access to them from a trainer...yet you can aquire them earlier and cheaper by using a SoC. How does this alienate pvers?

It doesn't, and thats a perfecty reasonable suggestion. However, thats not the sole issue being discussed by many here. Many are upset they have to quest just to get runes, certain skills, items AT ALL, so that they are competitive in the area. I have no problem changing SoC, getting rid of elites, or changing them to normal skills. What I have a problem with are those trying to turn an adventuring game into a FPS with swords and fireballs. Its just not the nature of the beast. Having played a few MMOs previous to this one, anet has effectively solved the grind. Instanced zones, one click travel, etc, has made this a joy to play. The PvP was just the icing on the cake for me, but if I want to play a game that devotes its entire paradigm to instant PvPing, then GW is not it.

goku19123 · May 10, 2005, 06:31 PM // 18:31

One thing I am very tired of hearing is people who say "if you want everything now go play a FPS." But guess what? NOT ONE DAMN PERSON IS ASKING FOR EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW!

Seriously, does anyone posting recently read ENGLISH? NO? I had a feeling they didn't.

Does it really matter if someone SoC's an elite they searched for, or bought that same elite from a vendor for a skill point and vast some of gold? No one is asking for everything right now, for the last time. There needs to be modifications so that you can get elite skills in other ways. Having the SoC AND being able to purchase them is the same kind of time sink - either way your going to spend time trying to get the elite skill.

And it doesn't matter who MMO's are geared for, the fact is all kinds of people play them, and so far, Arena.net is doing a damn good job keeping people happy, this seems to be the ONE MAJOR AREA OF DISAPPOINTMENT for some.

Just because someone has an issue with the SoC system, does not mean they are not willing to work for an elite skill. I don't have the kind of time to sit around for an hour+ trying to get one skill, and I'm sure others face this issue as well. Who cares if I spend 3k gold for an elite skill, while that 3k gold takes the same amount of time to build up cumulatively as it would have cost time-wise to just go SoC it?

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Again, thats NOT the nature of MMOs. The only seperation is electing to fight other live players or not. What you're asking for is 3D Nox, where you can just boot up the game and go at it. You are asking for two different games. If everything was made available so easily, then everyone would be level 20 with every item, rune and skill. The game would function for all about a week before you were left with PvPers whos sole interest is fighting each other. This game, like all other MMOs with a PvP aspect, has an electable option to do both, when you want to. There are plenty of MMOs where there is PvE exclusively. PvP adds the extra dimension to where you can use those items/skills you earned to actually kick another live player's ass, and thats fun. What you're asking for is everything be instantly available and disperate from the entire other side of the equation; then its no longer an MMO, its just Nox in 3D. If a developer saw a profit to be made in such a game, it would've been made by now I think.

Guild wars marketed itself as the mmo mold breaker. Up until release this was mostly true - then they turned around and added huge grind requirements to exactly the people that wanted it least. To put it simply, there isn't enough game content there to appease the farming masses that don't want to pvp. The world is fairly small and only appears larger because of the desnse monster spawns. Levels are capped early. The endgame content is almost pure pvp, the recent timesinks to do pvp competitively notiwthstanding. Adding massive timesinks to a game that doesn't have pay to play boggles me. It makes no sense.

Runes are for a different discussion, honestly - they have their own issues.

Laz

decog · May 10, 2005, 06:36 PM // 18:36

"Just because someone has an issue with the SoC system, does not mean they are not willing to work for an elite skill. I don't have the kind of time to sit around for an hour+ trying to get one skill, and I'm sure others face this issue as well. Who cares if I spend 3k gold for an elite skill, while that 3k gold takes the same amount of time to build up cumulatively as it would have cost time-wise to just go SoC it?"

did you just contradict yourself? I'm not trying to be an @$$ but it reads wierd.

.d

Loviatar · May 10, 2005, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

Having the SoC AND being able to purchase them is the same kind of time sink - either way your going to spend time trying to get the elite skill.
?

one important point is that if it available for any amount of gold it will not be a time sink for the pvp want it now crowd

the super competitive guilds will allow non pvp members to share their lofty cape and name in return for farming goodies and turning them over to the guild for use
the pve member gets so called status from being in a top guild
the guild gets free money and upgrades
guild member xxx needs this elite skill at 50 plat and simply gets it from the guild leader and buys it

Augy · May 10, 2005, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

One thing I am very tired of hearing is people who say "if you want everything now go play a FPS." But guess what? NOT ONE DAMN PERSON IS ASKING FOR EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW!

Seriously, does anyone posting recently read ENGLISH? NO? I had a feeling they didn't.

If people are upset that they have to farm runes, items, and quest for skills, then whats the alternative?

"well, make rare drops more common, give us more runes, make skills easier to obtain."

Where does that leave the remaining 80% of the playerbase? Again, what is IMPLIED by the complaining is that GW is too much "grind." how much is enough grind? What is too much grind? If you want things to come so easy, just so you can /flex after winning in the arena, why not just have it all handed to you? People want an uber toon in ten minutes a week of game play. Like i've been saying, thats COUNTER to what mmo's are. If your life is filled with such obligation that you have one hour to do any leisure activities on any given day/night, then you shouldnt be playing MMOs at all. The very nature of these games demand a time investment. Thats how they work, and thats the attraction for many: the endless replay they offer with new experiences.

Thats why many are saying "go play an FPS." An FPS requires no time investment, its instant action then you turn it off. MMOs are an entirely different animal.

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Where does that leave the remaining 80% of the playerbase? Again, what is IMPLIED by the complaining is that GW is too much "grind." how much is enough grind? What is too much grind? If you want things to come so easy, just so you can /flex after winning in the arena, why not just have it all handed to you? People want an uber toon in ten minutes a week of game play. Like i've been saying, thats COUNTER to what mmo's are. If your life is filled with such obligation that you have one hour to do any leisure activities on any given day/night, then you shouldnt be playing MMOs at all. The very nature of these games demand a time investment. Thats how they work, and thats the attraction for many: the endless replay they offer with new experiences.

It massively frustrates me that the opposition to this issue keeps bringing up the epeen argument.

Point. The skill system is balanced against itself when competing parties have full access to skills.

Point. Getting to level 20 with full armor and appropriate weapons, skills and runes does not make you a god, but it does give you a serious advantage that thereby requires all people who wish to be competitive to have equivalent items/skills.

Point. Guild wars isn't an mmo in any traditional sense of the word. The closest parallels are diablo2 and ccg's like magic the gathering. Its basic premise that drew all the people complaining in was that skill>time. To say outright that this was a lie and everyone who's angry at the massive change from beta to release should pack up their bags and leave is childish.

You want other games that require no time investment? Chess. Cards. RTS's, TBS's...etc. Pretty much the only game type that requires you to work in order to get to the fun parts is mmo's, and a.net said guild wars wasn't supposed to be like that.

Laz

May 10, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Lazarous just stop arguing with newbs that swear they know what they are talking about. It's funny that alot of these people are speaking for ArenaNet when the devs arent saying what these people are claiming. Also if you think Guild Wars was relying on PvE only to guarantee it's success you are plain wrong.

So stop the bs and actually read what people are posting instead of bringing up things that people are not even saying into the discussion.

Augy · May 10, 2005, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

It massively frustrates me that the opposition to this issue keeps bringing up the epeen argument.

Don't be frustrated. It's not a disparaging argument (from me at least). I accept it, hell, I EMBRACE it. What other point is there to battle than victory, l33tness, and adding some insult to injury? Thats the fun in PvP for me, to win. I'm as guilty as you when it comes to wanting to be competitive, and lay the smack down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Point. The skill system is balanced against itself when competing parties have full access to skills.

not neccessarily true. Its why some people still think the W/Mo is "overpowered." You think you'll be all that with a full complement of skills and elites? No doubt you'll be strong, but maybe someone will devise a combo with nub, easily-obtainable skills that will counter your superbuild. Thats the beauty of a skills-based PvP system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Point. Getting to level 20 with full armor and appropriate weapons, skills and runes does not make you a god, but it does give you a serious advantage that thereby requires all people who wish to be competitive to have equivalent items/skills.

I'll agree with you to a certain extent here. Armor, runes and items make a difference. However, given the right skill set and circumstances, even these advantages are overcome. Some guy could have all the nifty items and still lack the basic common sense not to charge out in front and alone in the arena. Or, just be caught away from the group, called out, and taken down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Point. Guild wars isn't an mmo in any traditional sense of the word. The closest parallels are diablo2 and ccg's like magic the gathering. Its basic premise that drew all the people complaining in was that skill>time. To say outright that this was a lie and everyone who's angry at the massive change from beta to release should pack up their bags and leave is childish.

It still has many, many aspects to the MMO genre, and this "cooperative" stuff I cynically believe is just clever wording made up by a marketing dept. You quest, get xp, horde loot, talk smack, kick your buddies ass in the arena, trade, and advance yourself generally. Sounds pretty MMOish to me.

Even after its all said and done, its just a game. If you're finding yourself stressed out at your primary source of amusement, man, just put it down and play something you truly derive enjoyment from. Or, concentrate on the aspects that amuse you most.

But, according to some, I'm just a newb that doesn't know what he's talking about. Because as we all know, Dev's always fully disclose all aspects of the game, the marketing is always 100% accurate, and the packaging and press releases are in no way worded to generate more sales, ever.

lol.

butcherboy · May 10, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by master

That's not true. PvP is the premise of the game. Guild Wars is all about pvp and it was not something they just added. The gameplay of skills reflects this. The company background reflects this. Just because they did a good job in PvE and making PvE story driving does not mean the game is not about PvP. In the story, the "Guilds Wars" are the guilds battling each other in PvP.

That was PRE-SEARING. While you are wandering around for that elite skill why not read that cool book about a Spanish guy named Manual. As you may note, most of the skills are post-searing

. Also, in case you haven't noticed, the "Guild Wars" never actually are depicted in anyway other than stories so it technically wasn't PvP, maybe NPCvNPC though.

As for the company background, isn't this the first ArenaNet game made by folks who left Blizzard before WoW? Not a lot to say there is a PvP history there... encore has PvP history but ArenaNet does not. Lots of RTS PvP but no RPG PvP. This is their first game. With deathmatch as a sole PvP aspect vice the PvE having dozens of hours of non-PvP action, GW is a PvE game with PvP along for the ride.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 10, 2005, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

I dont know. Does it not add to the 'mystique' of the game if you have someone who has put in a lot of effort and time into both PvP and PvE and has some special 'elite' rare skill very few others have?

I mean it might unbalance PvP, but the dude has become a real 'hero' of Guild Wars if you understand me, and gains access to certain abilities/powers very few have.

And this is exactly the mentality a lot of you grinders have. All you want is to show off your E-peens in where you had tons of time to waste. You people don't care about balance or fun, it's all about your egos. You have time to waste and others don't, so you'd rather have this current grind so you can be "special" as long as you can. Wasn't GW supposed to be skill based not time spent?

It's sad that the only fun you can get is to be a "hero" with a lot of time on his hand instead of actually being skilled. It's sad people are still brainwashed into thinking that wasting time over something tedious and repetitive is fun and considered a worthy accomplishment.

Siren · May 10, 2005, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

and it is grind free for the true *casual* player
grab a character play a few rounds go back to real life

for the hard core i want to be at the top of the ladder person you have to work for it

Thank you, Loviatar. Couldn't have said it better myself. For the casual gamers, this SoC business isn't an issue. For the hardcore powergamer/powergrinder mentality...it is an issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EetGnomeMasher

And this is exactly the mentality a lot of you grinders have. All you want is to show off your E-peens in where you had tons of time to waste. You people don't care about balance or fun, it's all about your egos. You have time to waste and others don't, so you'd rather have this current grind so you can be "special" as long as you can. Wasn't GW supposed to be skill based not time spent?

Hardly the case with me, ETM. Just to inject some humor, I've bolded and underlined a particular statement that I find amusing, lol. With the thirty posts just today in this thread, I think that statement applies to all of us here, regardless of our inclination to PvE and/or PvP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

Lazarous just stop arguing with newbs that swear they know what they are talking about. It's funny that alot of these people are speaking for ArenaNet when the devs arent saying what these people are claiming. Also if you think Guild Wars was relying on PvE only to guarantee it's success you are plain wrong.

I don't think it's terribly difficult to accurately read a paragraph in the GW Synopsis. It's not even a matter of speaking for ArenaNet when I'm explaining what that press release means; it's simply showing what the press release means, because there have been some blatant misinterpretations of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

You want other games that require no time investment? Chess.

Lazarous, you don't want to go there. Trust me on this. Chess is not some pick-up-and-play boardgame like Checkers (and even Checkers is deceptively simple). Chess most definitely requires a time investment to become proficient at it, and to get to the fun parts. A beginner isn't going to stand a chance playing Bobby Fisher, but you're seemingly implying a newbie could put up an effective defense against Fisher.

I don't know how old you are, but there were Chess halls in NYC back in the 60s that my father frequented regularly, and understand that the regulars there could demolish most of the upstarts and newbies in under 15 minutes, and even less in speed Chess.

Chess requires just as much strategy and devotion as GuildWars, whether or not you believe it, and in fact, much of the approaches in speed Chess directly apply to tactics in GuildWars. Hell, GuildWars is a huge game of Chess at times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

One thing I am very tired of hearing is people who say "if you want everything now go play a FPS." But guess what? NOT ONE DAMN PERSON IS ASKING FOR EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW!

No one, and I mean no one at all, is asking for everything to be handed to us in one fell swoop - we're asking for modifications/improvements. No one is saying there is a level grind.

When you're asking for Elite skill vendors...and Elite skill acquisition is the focus of this discussion...how are you not asking for everything right now? You've had post after post talking about how it would be so much better if PvPers could buy the skills they needed, and since the gold drops are so huge later in the game...how are you not asking for everything right now? The content of your post, your ideas, etc., betray what you just claimed.

I'll simplify it:

If you stock Vendors with Elite skills that are readily available for purchase, even at exorbitant prices, and near-end-game/end-game players will be able to buy them immediately...that's asking for something to be given to you in one fell swoop. Elites acquistion is the focus of this discussion, and what you're suggesting is precisely giving PvPers everything in one fell swoop.

No matter what you say, goku, that's what your suggestion boils down to...just read between the lines and consider the implications.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augy

GW is an entire explorable world, but some are determined to remain in the tiny arena zones, and want all their skills handed to them. It just isnt happening. I dont care if you've played alpha, beta or whatever, this is the nature of this sort of game, period, for all time since there were just MUDs and text-based adventures.

Can we improve SoC? Sure. But only as long as you understand that more than likely it will be changed so that its still earned. Will anet change something as integral to adventuring as finding new skills and weapons via questing? More than likely not. Thems the facts.

Entire issue distilled into two paragraphs.

Bamelin · May 10, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

If you stock Vendors with Elite skills that are readily available for purchase, even at exorbitant prices, and near-end-game/end-game players will be able to buy them immediately...that's asking for something to be given to you in one fell swoop. Elites acquistion is the focus of this discussion, and what you're suggesting is precisely giving PvPers everything in one fell swoop.

And the problem with that is ... ?

You've said yourself that the players in your example would be either very near or at the "end" game of PvE. Why force them to "go back" and spend countless hours farming for l33ts for PvP, when they have already "experienced" the PvE portion of the game?

I have no problem playing the PvE portion of the game. My problem comes with having to repeat PvE content multiple times in order to gain the skills I need for my PvP builds. That is grind.

Riverside went from being one of my favorite missions in the game to one of my most hated. The lobby is always filled with mostly lvl 20'ers preparing to go farm. I've done that mission god knows how many times ... but at least I know the trolls will drop some potential runes!

THAT is grind.

Bamelin

Sidra Meum · May 10, 2005, 09:18 PM // 21:18

I think I love Siren.

mtxed · May 10, 2005, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Im sorry for my post earlier. I guess this is a more elaborate version posted by Augy. Please read Lazarous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augy

Again, thats NOT the nature of MMOs. The only seperation is electing to fight other live players or not. What you're asking for is 3D Nox, where you can just boot up the game and go at it. You are asking for two different games. If everything was made available so easily, then everyone would be level 20 with every item, rune and skill. The game would function for all about a week before you were left with PvPers whos sole interest is fighting each other. This game, like all other MMOs with a PvP aspect, has an electable option to do both, when you want to. There are plenty of MMOs where there is PvE exclusively. PvP adds the extra dimension to where you can use those items/skills you earned to actually kick another live player's ass, and thats fun. What you're asking for is everything be instantly available and disperate from the entire other side of the equation; then its no longer an MMO, its just Nox in 3D. If a developer saw a profit to be made in such a game, it would've been made by now I think.

The point of these MMO games is to consume your time. You are suppose to dedicate time in unlocking items and runes. They are rare and sometimes difficult to find for a reason. It's what keeps people playing and playing and playing. If you dont have the time or dedication to hunt items, then don't play GW. Or don't complain when someone owns your ass because they spent more time playing. GW will never be balanced. There will always be someone with an advantage. There will always be someone with a better item or a better skill. It's obvious with these types of games that time = power. More time invested into the game, more things unlocked. And that's basically the challenge.

If you don't like that, you're playing the wrong genre. Like others suggested, go play FPS games, it's all even and fair.

goku19123 · May 10, 2005, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by decog

"Just because someone has an issue with the SoC system, does not mean they are not willing to work for an elite skill. I don't have the kind of time to sit around for an hour+ trying to get one skill, and I'm sure others face this issue as well. Who cares if I spend 3k gold for an elite skill, while that 3k gold takes the same amount of time to build up cumulatively as it would have cost time-wise to just go SoC it?"

did you just contradict yourself? I'm not trying to be an @$$ but it reads wierd.

.d

Okay, this for decog, and anyone else who thinks vendors carrying elite skills is amiss in some way.

I define the phrase "casual gamer" in two ways:
1) the kind of person who picks it up every now and than, and puts it down as easily for real world obligations
2) the kind of person who has real world obligations holding them back from hours of gameplay

Now, having elite skills at vendors for vast sums of gold and a skill point IN ADDITION THE SOC SYSTEM, would not only give people a way around the gold cost, but would now give the casual gamer a way to slowly work for elites that they can't get by hunting because of time constraints. Either way your going to have to spend time getting to where you want to be, and no, having them at vendors is not giving people everything all at once. Clearly your not going to go into pre-searing ascalon and by an elite, they would be scaled by town/outpost all the way to the end game.

Instead of bashing each other and argumentative, how about working together.

Not one suggestion so far has been to give someone everything all at once, so lets drop that from the list of reasons, shall we?

Edit: And, for the record, if your going to mention my suggestions, you better be damn sure you have my FULL suggestion down, mentioning it in a halfassed way and picking it apart is childish.