Curse

S I L E N C E · May 10, 2005, 12:10 PM // 12:10

OK.. I can really see why giving the PVP only players easy access to skills would kill the PVP..though the statment about making a team in order to just die doesnt make sence.. the groups your fight are random, you have no way of knowing if your going to be going up aginst said group. though i am unsure if in the GvG arena one guild can challenge..themselves? that doesnt seem to make sence for some reason.. to basicly making characters to just be slain would not matter.

The ONLY thing i can see that i disagree with SoC, is the complete randomness of the spawns...maybe make the mobs that use the said skills always spawn in the zone - in the same place- doing that wouldnt make the game easier, it would just cut back on the uneeded reloging of a zone.

Sidra Meum · May 10, 2005, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by S I L E N C E

The ONLY thing i can see that i disagree with SoC, is the complete randomness of the spawns...maybe make the mobs that use the said skills always spawn in the zone - in the same place- doing that wouldnt make the game easier, it would just cut back on the uneeded reloging of a zone.

I agree and even suggested the same. I think if Anet chooses to continue in this route, and they more then likely will. Bosses should use certain, set skills and spawn in general area's - but not the same place exactly. You should have to hunt them down just not go to ___ location that is where he is. I think that would help solve a lot of issues.

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 12:59 PM // 12:59

I dont know. Does it not add to the 'mystique' of the game if you have someone who has put in a lot of effort and time into both PvP and PvE and has some special 'elite' rare skill very few others have?

I mean it might unbalance PvP, but the dude has become a real 'hero' of Guild Wars if you understand me, and gains access to certain abilities/powers very few have.

Personally although I would hate to go up against someone who as a really superior skill and knows how to use it, that kind of gameplay idea is really impressive to me. Yes we will see untold numbers of complaints and rants from people about how 'unfair' it is etc. but its there to be gained by all, and your own inability to achieve it for whatever reason should not be the braking force behind nice ideas.

People have to stop thinking about games now as things you stick on and bash away for a few hours, but rather as persistant worlds with their own lore, and laws etc. Why shouldnt we see players becoming legends in these worlds through their actions ingame and their abilities? It might unbalance purist PvP, but if that is what you are after you can always ignore the results of these 'overpowered' characters if you choose too. And for the rest of us who think this is a 'cool idea' it gives something to aim for, another classy idea in a great game, and an excuse to whine about if we lose, 'Man if it wasnt for that guys Holy Word of Total Doomz0r we woulda won'

Pharalon · May 10, 2005, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

They are considered elite skills because they are not easy to get, therefore only the players that try (and know what they are doing) can get them.

Wow, just wow. I can't believe you've managed to argued this over two pages. Skills were labelled Elite because they stood out above the rest. More often than not they will be a defining part of your build. There is a reason you can only have one on a bar at a time you know, and it has nothing to do with roleplay or semantics. At the time the label was concieved, the skills were no rarer than any others, nor were there plans in place to make them so.

Quote:

You play a different game?

Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what ANet wants. It's not like they're a business trying to turn a profit. They don't really want to move boxes, they just want to ignore any an all forms of criticism, and for the game to stay exactly as is, despite its flaws.

Quote:

I mean it might unbalance PvP, but the dude has become a real 'hero' of Guild Wars if you understand me, and gains access to certain abilities/powers very few have.

What is the point of PvP if your chance of success is purely a function of the number of hours you've put into the game? ANet, and more importantly NCSoft, is pitching this game as the fist of a new breed of competitive games. They're hoping sales will hold up in the long run off a healthy PvP community, in addition to the excellent PvE community they have already captured. They wouldn't have had a $30k tournamnet before the game even went gold if they didn't have big plans in this direction. The PvP is of a level to live up to that hope, and easily so, but atm, there are some game mechanics, the SoC being one of the most prominent, that is likely to hold that back somewhat.

Most people just want to play this game and have fun. If there's an aspect fo the game that they don't find fun, or worse, as in this case, actively impedes their ability to enjoy themselves, then the developers need to know about it. It's got nothing to do with appeasing whining PvPers, and everything to do with making the game as enjoyable as it can be, for all potential players.

With that in mind, the SoC doesn't seem like a terrible mechanic from a RP standpoint. The implemention is cludgey, but the spirit behind it is good. These skills are the cream of the crop, often character defining, and it makes sense that they must be obtained in an unique fashion by characters nearing the pinnicle of their development.

But from the PvP standpoint, what is the motivation behind the extra timesink involved in unlocking these skills? It is infact counter-intuitive. More than any others, these are the skills you must have access to to put yourself on a level playing field with top tier opposition. If you want to produce skill based PvP, with grind not being a differentiating factor between opponents, it follows that these skills should in fact be more readily available to unlock for PvP builds than other skills. We're seeing far, far the opposite with the SoC system, and it's a problem that needs to be addressed.

Bamelin · May 10, 2005, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Originally Posted by anduck (in response to Gaille)

I cannot see the challenge, the solution is right there in front of you: let PvP-oriented people unlock through PvP. Do not force them to spend hundreds of hours grinding through the PvE game multiple times and completing it to a far greater extent than most PvErs, which is the current situation. I am not sure that persons who argue in favor of the grind, including yourself, fully comprehend that. In fact, I am certain that they don't.

The above was taken from the guild hall forums (http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...4&page=1&pp=25) and sums up the situation very nicely.

I listen to those that enjoy PvE posting here that somehow it's ok that those who enjoy PvP are forced to endure countless hours of PvE. The current system doesn't make sense.

The worst part is they had things perfect right up to the last beta. Elites could be bought off skill traders, everyone was happy, PvE crowd AND PvP.

The bottom line is that the game was advertised as an essentially grind free PvP experience where player skill would matter more than time spent playing. This is obviously no longer the case ... is it any suprise the PvP crowd is howling about the sudden drastic change made between the last beta and retail release?

Read the above quote closely ... all PvP'ers are really asking is a way to unlock skills and abilities in a manner we find fun ... through PvP. Just as PvE'ers can open skills and abilities in a manner THEY find fun ... through PvE.

Fair is fair.

goku19123 · May 10, 2005, 03:25 PM // 15:25

1) As a few others have mentioned so far: Elite skills are "elite" for balancing issues, eliminating skill combinations that are too powerful.
2) We all play this game to have fun, lets stop telling people they need a new game because one mechanic of this game annoys them and please no more arguing - we all have different opinions, because someone disagrees with you, does not mean his/her opinions are going to monopolize and take over your own. Arena.net is trying to cater to all people, lets also keep this in mind when we post...how to make everyone happy.
3) Contrary to the few people who said gold grinding is tedius: There is no gold grind. If you are at Lion's Arch with 2.5k gold, please, don't downplay an idea. By the end game many people have over 40k gold, yes it accumulates quickly. For those who think skills trainers selling elites at an exaggerated price is a gold grind, for your knowledge base, the higher armor at Copperhead Mines costs 15k a piece, times 5...Oh...75k gold for a new set of armor - just putting in perspective.
4) Of all these posts, there has only been three real suggestions:
A) Making quests are the elite skills.
i) This would make the monster always in a particular zone.
ii) Easier to locate.
iii) Less time consuming
iv) Diffinately one of the harder suggestions to implement because of the scale
a) Such as all the code to add quests, the npcs for the quest, et cetera
B) Not having quests, but not randomizing spawns
i) The monster will always be in said location
ii) Less time hunting/re-instancing if the monster spawn varied on that try
iii) Less time consuming in that you know what you are going for, for a fact
iv) One of the easier suggestions to implement
C) Making elite skills purchasable at vendors in addition to the SoC
i) Allows casual gamers to work for an elite piece by piece
ii) gives another way to get elites
iii) Scalable from beginning to end
iv) There really is no gold grind in the game
v) One of the easier suggestions to implement

Moreover, we could suggest a combination such as letter B+C.
5) What some consider a grind, others do not - merely an opinion each of us has, no need to argue because of it.
6) No one wants to see every skill available all at once in Ascalon City, or an "unlock all skills" tab, lets stop using that as the main arguement vs. easier skill accumulation.
7) At any time you have a time sink, you will have disparaties in what people have across the board. The problem arises when a time sink is added to something as critical as skills. Why is Tombs so easy right now? Because people who know what is going down right now, are out farming and getting elites, when they are done, you will see huge disparaties in power, with regards to skills. Something like this DOES throw into question the skill > time paradigm. There are many arguements such as: "You can have skills without elites in your skill set." True, skill is a very subjective thing to notice in other people. But for the record, most elites are very combo friendly. For high end PvP you need a mass assortment of skills for any future builds or team builds; that means that if a PvP only guild wants to try a new team buid, they all have to go make PvE characters and play for another 100+ hours just to have that team functional, at best.
8) Right now, the only feature making this "tolerable" is the unlock feature, but that doesn't really even help out the casual player.

Lastly, a system like this has the potential to make or break the game for some people. I would like to see more suggestions if anyone can come up with any others. Just keep in mind that Arena.net is trying to make everyone happy, yet stay balanced in terms of PvE vs PvP. If this was your game, and you knew such a rift existed within the player base, and this game was your livelyhood, how would you fix it?

Don't get me wrong either - Arena.net is a fantastic company with an awesome game. They have fixed many issues to date, and continue to please me as a consumer.

Sidra Meum · May 10, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bamelin

Originally Posted by anduck (in response to Gaille)

I cannot see the challenge, the solution is right there in front of you: let PvP-oriented people unlock through PvP. Do not force them to spend hundreds of hours grinding through the PvE game multiple times and completing it to a far greater extent than most PvErs, which is the current situation. I am not sure that persons who argue in favor of the grind, including yourself, fully comprehend that. In fact, I am certain that they don't.

The above was taken from the guild hall forums (http://www.guild-hall.net/forum/show...4&page=1&pp=25) and sums up the situation very nicely.

I listen to those that enjoy PvE posting here that somehow it's ok that those who enjoy PvP are forced to endure countless hours of PvE. The current system doesn't make sense.

The worst part is they had things perfect right up to the last beta. Elites could be bought off skill traders, everyone was happy, PvE crowd AND PvP.

The bottom line is that the game was advertised as an essentially grind free PvP experience where player skill would matter more than time spent playing. This is obviously no longer the case ... is it any suprise the PvP crowd is howling about the sudden drastic change made between the last beta and retail release?

Read the above quote closely ... all PvP'ers are really asking is a way to unlock skills and abilities in a manner we find fun ... through PvP. Just as PvE'ers can open skills and abilities in a manner THEY find fun ... through PvE.

Fair is fair.

Beta's are just that.. Beta's. Its a test to see HOW things are done, whether it is suitable and if it should be changed. There was nothing assuring anyone that the last beta would in anyway reflect the release of the game at all.

But! I actually, have agree'd with it. To an extend. I think on a PvE standard, everything is fine. I think the Bosses could use a bit of tweeking - so as before stated they use SET skills and can be found in specific locations. But they shouldnt be set to always use their skill/s nor at the same spot. Sure. That is after all the RP aspect.

However. PVP - Yes, It needs a bit of work. Still - ArenaNet has given EXACTLY what they advertised. The ability to PVP without any or little grind. You do not NEED to have an RP character at all. Sure you dont get the "mega kewl" stuff. That is a choice. HOWEVER. I do not feel that PVP players should be FORCED to RP a character. YES, I think they are missing out on a wonderful portion of the game. Still, their choice. It is my opinion that there should be an award system for PVP ONLY based characters and ascension characters. Such as, maybe an outpost only they can have access to, that has vendors which sell skills, runes, and everything of the like that they are supposed to "go work off and unlock". From my understanding - there is no reward system for the arena battles? Perhaps there should be. Awarding skill points for individual/team/group wins which then the player can use to later purchase the skills or elite skills they want. Items..? I don't know.. Large amounts of gold? Arena Wins give you 1 skill point and 500 gold? Who knows. Its just a raw idea.

Another one would be, as people have said. Make SOME (not all and not many) Elite skills be quests. Or, as someone said. WHy don't the good guys have these?! I think something interesting would be to have to PvP against a major NPC from the storyline or furture story line. Defeating him would "proove your worthy" of obtaining the skill and unlocking it for you. I think that would be nice for both RP after acension and PVP side players. Basically fighting against a "Boss Henchmen" or something.

Still, I happen to like the SoC. It needs tweeking, but I do not - overall, think of it a bad thing.

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Let me just say that the 'PvP crowd' are not out grinding away unlocking more stuff than your average PvEr. What the hell is this game? There is not a lot of options if you dont like PvP other than explore every inch of what is admittadly a beautiful world, and wait for the next chapter.

Dont try and already split everyone up into the catagories, the PvP players are all being shafter, and the PvErs dont bother with pvp much.
Thats total crap. If there is a bunch of people turning up to play expecting instant access to everything, then they obviously bought the wrong game.

The reason, I think, for the SoC 'timesink' as people call it is abviously not your hard earned cash, because you dont pay to play, but the fact that such a vast amount of hardwork and talent has been put into creating this game, and the developers want to make you see it if you play this game. This may or may not be true, but what I see in these posts is just a bunch of impatient brats moaning about having to do something they dont want to.

You really dont like fantasy RP? Why the hell did you buy Guild Wars? I dont understand. Reading the back of my box it says a lot about skill being the deciding factor in your victories and not how many hours you play. That doesnt mean you wont have play a lot to become good though, in terms of items skills/spells, or game skill.

What next? Because if this signet of capture crap is around all ready, what about when people start losing battles because of the stats on a sword from PvE? You gonna demand they get nerfed/sold in towns too?

Seriously, if your going to state that its the PvP oriented crowd that has this problem, and not the impatient want it now brats, then you will be far wrong, for I would imagine that most people who play are going to WANT to PvE to some degree, as well as PvP a lot.
If you bought this game for the PvP alone then you KNEW before release the situation PvP only builds would be in, so dont bother coming in claiming its a major imbalance in the game, when all it is is damn laziness and selfishness on the side of the fools who want it all, without having to do anything in the game they dont want to.

Games like that DO NOT EXIST. Whats the point in booting up a game, press an I AM UBER button, and thats it. Games dont cater to you, they cater to the masses, the masses knew to unlock the vast majority of stuff for PvP they would have to PvE, they still bought the game. So to come here and rant now is just rediculous, you are going to spoil what is overall a very balanced well though out game, simply because you do not want to play it all.

Lame.

goku19123 · May 10, 2005, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

Dont try and already split everyone up into the catagories, the PvP players are all being shafter, and the PvErs dont bother with pvp much.
Thats total crap. If there is a bunch of people turning up to play expecting instant access to everything, then they obviously bought the wrong game.

No one is trying to say people who play PvE don't bother with PvP.
No one is asking for instant access to everything.
Are you skimming the posts or actually reading them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

The reason, I think, for the SoC 'timesink' as people call it is abviously not your hard earned cash, because you dont pay to play, but the fact that such a vast amount of hardwork and talent has been put into creating this game, and the developers want to make you see it if you play this game. This may or may not be true, but what I see in these posts is just a bunch of impatient brats moaning about having to do something they dont want to.

It's not complaining about "something" to do, it's urging a slight change to the system so that everytime you come up with a new build you want to try out, you don't need to spend another 100+ hours to get it functional. The unlock feature aids the system greatly. But again, the casual gamer does not have the amount of time necessary to unlock most of the skills to make a primary/secondary functional if the skill set was to change, with the current system in mind. I bet they want people to see the world of Tyria, and I'm pretty confident a vast majority loves it - but that is hardly the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

You really dont like fantasy RP? Why the hell did you buy Guild Wars? I dont understand.

I don't understand why peoples' suggestions and opinions irritate you. Clearly we all love this game, it's why we bought it. Can we please stop the rants and flames, and try to be civil about this. Any items someone finds in PvE can be comparable to the items a customized PvP character gets access to. The items are balanced wonderfully, again, you are digressing from the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

If you bought this game for the PvP alone then you KNEW before release the situation PvP only builds would be in, so dont bother coming in claiming its a major imbalance in the game, when all it is is damn laziness and selfishness on the side of the fools who want it all, without having to do anything in the game they dont want to.

Yes, all beta testers who bought the game realized that unlocking skills would be in place. The imbalance issue comes into place when you look at the time constraints on actually obtaining some of the elite skills (that may or may not be in your particular builds' skill set). Some elites can be obtained in about 5-20 minutes, some take 1+ hours - and that's the point. The casual gamer (you know, those people who don't have their lives to dedicate to this game) is going to have extreme difficulty in getting those said skills. Clearly, the suggestions (and there are not many, unfortunately too many people like to troll around and argue when they can) are geared toward another way, or a slightly easier way, or a combination of ways, to get those skills. Arena.net wants people to work for elites, clearly, but the imbalance is the time issue. For a deeper response: This is why it throws into question the skill over time paradigm; the person who has more time has potentially more strategies at their finger tips than the casual gamer who has a limited number of strategies or counters to strategies, than the person who has more time on their hands(period).

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

Games like that DO NOT EXIST. Whats the point in booting up a game, press an I AM UBER button, and thats it. Games dont cater to you, they cater to the masses, the masses knew to unlock the vast majority of stuff for PvP they would have to PvE, they still bought the game. So to come here and rant now is just rediculous, you are going to spoil what is overall a very balanced well though out game, simply because you do not want to play it all.
Lame.

Again:

No one is asking for an "I AM UBER BUTTON."
We all knew the unlock feature was present.
If anyone here didn't want to play the game, the smartest move would have been to not purchase it - but we did, because this is the best damn game on the market right now BECAUSE OF THE BALANCED PVP, and the aweomse PvE content, extras, etc. Arena.net has gone above and beyond expectations with this master piece. Arena.net is catering to everyone, even if you think they aren't. Sure, they could aim the game solely towards the masses, but they didn't, they made it appeal to type of player and in doing so, of course some are going to be happy with some changes and others are going to be angry/whatever. I for one, am not ranting, nor flaming, nor trolling - I just want this thread to be constructive, because clearly there is rift in the player base over this. I want people to contribute something positive. In my last post I stated that no one was asking for a "gimme everything" tab, and that's exactly the arguement you brought to the table.

Of the previous suggestions on improving the system as it is, they are all viable and none of them resemble a "gimme everything button," so why is that still an issue?

Bamelin · May 10, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

Reading the back of my box it says a lot about skill being the deciding factor in your victories and not how many hours you play. That doesnt mean you wont have play a lot to become good though, in terms of items skills/spells, or game skill.

Did you even read what you were writing? In the bolded part you say that the box says game skill is the deciding factor not time. In the second it part you equate playing alot with more items and therefore more game skill. =/

Having more skills and abilities means that somebody who has spent more TIME playing the PvE portion of the game will have an advantage when playing PvP ... and last I checked PvP was supposed to be based on player skill ... not how many items one has had time to grind out for their avatar.

Let me ask you this. Are you saying you think that it is a smart thing to give extra abilities and skills to certain players based soley on how much time they have spent grinding through PvE content? Do you not see how this would create a PvP environment that is NOT based on player skill but is instead based on abilities gained directly through amount of grind time?

The reason most PvP'ers liked the way GW was set up is that they didn't have to PvE ... they could easily get all the skills they need at store vendors and play the game that they enjoy ... PvP Guildwars ... a PvP environment where EVERYBODY had access to the same set of tools from the get go.

With the current system people that HATE PvE are being FORCED to do so in order to remain competitive.

And yes we ARE being forced. How the heck are we expected to remain competitive if we don't spend the hundred plus hours required to get all the runes and elites?

In the GvG environment builds change on the fly ... which means one must have ALL the elites and Superior Runes in order to be able to adapt one's avatar to deal with an ever changing tournement environment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

If you bought this game for the PvP alone then you KNEW before release the situation PvP only builds would be in, so dont bother coming in claiming its a major imbalance in the game, when all it is is damn laziness and selfishness on the side of the fools who want it all, without having to do anything in the game they dont want to.

Um no we didn't? In the last beta two weeks before release elites were easily purchasable from vendors. It wasn't until retail that it was discovered we were now being forced to PvE missions countless times to farm out the runes and elites we need to remain competitive in PvP.

Laziness and selfishness? Please. I play games to have fun ... not to "work" to get to the fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eventhorizen

Games dont cater to you, they cater to the masses, the masses knew to unlock the vast majority of stuff for PvP they would have to PvE, they still bought the game. So to come here and rant now is just rediculous, you are going to spoil what is overall a very balanced well though out game, simply because you do not want to play it all.

Again in the last BWE the amount of PvE nessecary to take part in PvP competitively was next to nothing. As a matter of fact most PvP'ers enjoy running through the PvE story ... ONCE. We do not enjoy having to set up camp in Riverside to farm runes. We do not enjoy the countless hours of REPEATED PvE content we are being forced to endure in order to make a competitive PvP avatar.

KEY WORDS = COMPETITIVE PvP AVATAR

The PvP "Pre builds" included with the game are a joke and anyone using them will be raped by guilds using custom builds.

Just because we don't want to spend the hundreds of hours now required in PvE to get a competitive PvP avatar doesn't mean we're "lazy". It just means we don't want to grind ... and Guildwars was ALWAYS advertised as a grind free game.

Loviatar · May 10, 2005, 05:09 PM // 17:09

and it is grind free for the true *casual* player
grab a character play a few rounds go back to real life

for the hard core i want to be at the top of the ladder person you have to work for it

Bamelin · May 10, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Working for something means practicing though PvP matches to become a better player/guild team. Learning to adapt to different builds thrown at you.

Working for something should NOT mean repetitive useless grind to get to the point where you can start practicing.

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 05:17 PM // 17:17

There was also the suggestion to unlock your class skills after you complete the game's missions which would at least allow for more focused playing in order to unlock stuff. Jumping from mission to mission is at least better than endlessly repeating the same one.

If you consider a pvp reward system, you have to reward both parties that are playing. Only rewarding the winner is a sure way to provide massive disparity in relative power levels and make it so that the only people who play pvp are those that are interested in tournaments or just don't care about getting more skills - basically stripping away the usefulness of pvp rewards.

By far the logically simplest solution would just be to split up pvp and pve characters completely, as was mentioned before. That way you could have pvp characters unlocked and ready to go instantly and leave pve characters to do whatever they please,

How about this - perhaps have 'divisions' of pvp play. set certain skills to unlock at each division, and require some sort of accomplishment to advance between divisions. This idea has the problem that guild wars is very team based so the accomplishments would probably have to be team oriented, as wel as again having the problem of power disparities between winners and losers.

The easiest solution is adding elite skill trainers back.

Laz

mtxed · May 10, 2005, 05:24 PM // 17:24

this game would be extremely unfun and boring if everything was handed to us.. why play pve? why go through all the trrouble of levelling up? dont expect to play the game for a week and be lvl20 with everything..

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtxed

this game would be extremely unfun and boring if everything was handed to us.. why play pve? why go through all the trrouble of levelling up? dont expect to play the game for a week and be lvl20 with everything..

To you. PvP is amazingly fun when people have everything handed to them, but we aren't even talking about that functionality. Stop making straw man arguments.

Laz

goku19123 · May 10, 2005, 05:32 PM // 17:32

I have to agree with Laz, and I have said this a few times myself: No one, and I mean no one at all, is asking for everything to be handed to us in one fell swoop - we're asking for modifications/improvements. No one is saying there is a level grind.

igormak · May 10, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Yes, its fun capturing elite skillz - I like, because only good players gain access to these skills. BUT, unlocking system sux so much.. I have completed the game, lvl20 Necro, made a quest in Underworld, completed 80% of sidequests and guess what? I HAVE UNLOCKED ONLY LESS THAN 10 MINOR RUNES. This is just ridiculous... Do I need to play over areas I have already completed? What the developers were thinking about? I am not playing anymore, waiting for the addon and studying...

Augy · May 10, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

The fact of the matter is, the demographics of MMOs show PvE'ers in the overwhelming majority. Dedicated, hardcore PvP'ers make up about 10-15% of any given MMO's playerbase (those that have a PvP aspect). Some have brought up the fact that anet is a business and wants to move boxes. Well, conducive to that, the numbers show catering to the PvE crowd will bring in more sales, and that includes the time-honored stick and carrot approach of questing for uber items/skills/spells.

This seems to be the crux upon which the PvP crowd bases their argument on: they want to PvP NOW with everything available NOW. Well, sadly, I really dont see any of that happening. There are plenty of games where there is no "grind" required to immediately be competitive and begin pwning your enemies. Doom 3 comes to mind. So, grumbling about how the entire game must change to appease a researched and confirmed minority of players is just a futile effort.

To the specific issue of the SoC: lets say they do make it a questable skill, or fix the mob spawn to a known area and profession, etc, the hardcore PvP crowd will still find room to whine. "Why should I have to quest for my l33tness, why cant I just buy it at the vendor? Why isn't it made available to me RIGHT NOW?!111!!!?//?" Well, again, you are simply playing the wrong type of game. Like another poster said, there isn't an adventure/rpg game in existence where some rare, elite item/skill is available right from the begining. Thats the novelty in playing this sort of game: power is "earned" so to speak.

The argument to this is: well, I PvP, and shouldn't be forced to PvE to be competitive. The nature of MMOs defies this assertion, and so do the numbers (see above). Again, there are plenty of games that accomplish just that. Go play those.

GW is an entire explorable world, but some are determined to remain in the tiny arena zones, and want all their skills handed to them. It just isnt happening. I dont care if you've played alpha, beta or whatever, this is the nature of this sort of game, period, for all time since there were just MUDs and text-based adventures.

Can we improve SoC? Sure. But only as long as you understand that more than likely it will be changed so that its still earned. Will anet change something as integral to adventuring as finding new skills and weapons via questing? More than likely not. Thems the facts.

Its just a game, if you're really having that bad a time playing, just stop.

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

The argument to this is: well, I PvP, and shouldn't be forced to PvE to be competitive. The nature of MMOs defies this assertion, and so do the numbers (see above). Again, there are plenty of games that accomplish just that. Go play those.

Then serperate pvp and pve completely and be done with it. In catering to the majority exclusively, they're seriously alienating the minority...and they don't have to.

If PvE is such an overwhelming majority it doesn't really matter if there is a completely dissociated set of pvpers, does it? PvE can go about questing or whatever it is they do in their spare time.

But forget that - make elites function like normal skills in that if you pass a certain area you gain access to them from a trainer...yet you can aquire them earlier and cheaper by using a SoC. How does this alienate pvers?

Laz

zemelett · May 10, 2005, 06:05 PM // 18:05

If you want all your skills unlocked right from the start you should be playing a FPS where all you have to do is run around some map and find the super weapon then blast the hell out of everyone with it. Sure GW made it so you could unlock all the skills for the BWE but this is no longer BWE. Also IMO i like to have a chance to test out my skill set on the PvE parts and familiarize myself with the skills, which ones complement others best and stuff like that. That way when I go into a PvP battle I'm not casting spells willy nilly and wasting their potential!