Curse

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Yeah, especially this part:

Quote:

If you like Player-versus-Player competition, Guild Wars was made for you. In addition to building up a character by undergoing missions and quests, you can choose to create a character specifically for head-to-head PvP competition or guild warfare. The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete.

note the last part. Note how SoC works as a time sink.

Laz

kairusan · May 10, 2005, 03:06 AM // 03:06

I am not sure but if the elite skills were at the intown merchants during the early release of the game or only during the beta. But with my experience with other games they usually make things that are going to be hard to get very accessible to the gamers so they can try every aspect of the game during beta testing. Personally I like the signet of capture part of the game, I got a Shield of Regen today from the Monk Facet in the Dragons Lair. I felt a feeling of accomplishment afterwards. I dont understand all of the people who dont understand that if you build your character during PvE you will have an advantage in PvP. That is the reward. Obviously

Manderlock · May 10, 2005, 04:04 AM // 04:04

To the OP, these are called *ELITE* skills, i.e. not easy to get. I realy like not having stuff handed to me. Do i get pissed when I have to try over agin? Damn strait, but I wouldnt have it any other way.

To the people talking saying "They lied this game does have grind". I love a game that only needs about 20 hours of gameplay to complete

. The "grind" they are talking about is not having to constintly play just to stay even with everyone else(i.e. the lvl cap). Does this mean that the game is short and small? Hell no, the game is huge and it does take time to beat it, but once you hit lvl 20 you are on pare with every other player.

Granted that *elite* skills are hard to find, but thats why they are called *elite*.

Siren · May 10, 2005, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Second, Siren has been calling people "crybabies" if that's not someone being crude then I don't know what is.

I wanted to clarify here. I called the majority of the whiners "crybabies" because what the whiners are whining about is inconsequential, and their posts have been nothing more than bitching and moaning, with no real suggestions or solutions being offered, only whining and complaining. That, to me, is the purest definition of a "crybaby." Only in the last five posts have there been any hints of what ANet can do to "fix" the SoC system...before that, absolutely nothing. Calling people "crybabies" is harsh, probably, but it's accurate, because that's what most of the so-called "critics" have been acting like.

Quote:

And this part isn't addressed to you specifically, but for those people who keep bringing up the unlocking all skills option, well this is NOT about that. This is about the Elite skills system being flawed.

Okay, so you dislike the hunt? To nab a particular Elite skill, you just want to buy it from a Vendor, basically? Why would it be called Elite at all then? It may as well just be yet another normal skill.

Quote:

Also it's funny that a lot of you associate spending long tedious hours on gaining something as "accomplishment" Well, I'm glad you people are so proud of that fact. But there are some who don't consider a tedious frustrating boring system as fun.

What are some of the alternatives being suggested, then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

The solution - keep the SoC feature as is, for those who are hardcore and can handle time sinks, but for casual gamers make elites purchasable at skill vendors (one suggestion is having the elites cost 1 skill point and a vast amount of gold (something like 2000 gold for the first elite purchase and then scales upward for each purchase thereafter))

But earlier in the thread, I think butcherboy effectively countered that suggestion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by butcherboy

Selling skills in town would simply attribute to cash grind and monster farming grind and wouldn't be any sort of reward as it is. The Signet of Capture thingie sounds like an excellent way for players to devise their own quests ("I need the super springy arrow skill that the Gonks have in the brushlands so I will make an expedition to go there and get that skill") vice grinding ("I'll have 5000gp for my l33t super springy arrow skill if I kill 20k more Gonks because the Gonks have good cash drops"). No grind no problems.

Selling skills at Vendors would only compound the issue, because it would be an even heavier "grind"--in fact, selling skills at Vendors, having them priced much higher than other "normal" skills, would in fact be a clearly definable grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EetGnomeSmasher

A good suggestion for a fix has been mentioned. Quests would be much better to point you in the direction of where a monster with a specific skill is. Another is to fix the skill capturing system fixing all the points that I mentioned.

Now this is a viable solution. It would still involve the Signet of Capture (which is a fantastic idea, let's be honest), but it would also direct the player to their target, as a mission objective, which would spawn the creature with the profession and skill desired. The only potential issue here would be the Quest-Givers (horrid term, I know, but it's the best I could think of) having a rather static spot, which would...which may very well encourage a mass grind...call it Quest Farming, I suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Make skill traders give elites again. Hell, make them cost 2 skill points to acquire if you want to pander to the pve farming crowd so much, just make it so SoC isn't the only option.

Lazarous' suggestion is no more viable than goku's above...it's the exact same thing, anyway, and frankly, I find it to be a dumb idea, no offense. It doesn't make sense (for me, anyway) to see an Elite Mesmer skill like Ineptitude next to Empathy in Ascalon City.

And even if it costs more, whether in skill points or gold, that's not going to deter a player grind, nor will it magically solve anything. It will only compound the problem, because eventually, we're going to get griefing about how many mobs players have to kill to net enough gold or whatever to purchase that special Elite skill they've got their eyes on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EetGnomeSmasher

And for crying out loud. Not everyone asked for instant access to Elites ! Just for an improvement in the current system. Stop using that invalid tired old argument. Some of you are using exaggerations to try to make your arguments.

EGS, from what I've read in this thread, it seems that most, if not all, here are asking for what amounts to either an instant access to Elite skills, or something (Vendors) that amounts to an even worse grind than some believe there is. Just reading through the thread, reading various "solutions," it is crystal clear to me that there is very little being offered apart from requests that amount to simple "instant access." EGS, I think you were one of the only ones in this thread to actually discuss a viable solution...and then you never bothered to repeat it in your later posts.

From what I've seen on these forums, you need to bash things into most peoples' heads so they "get it." I'm not trying to burn you here, so don't take this the wrong way, but if you have a solution, you need to keep repeating it, lol.

Now, I had quoted goku19123 earlier, and I'd like to focus on the quote again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

The solution - keep the SoC feature as is, for those who are hardcore and can handle time sinks, but for casual gamers make elites purchasable at skill vendors

Now, call me crazy, but I don't think that's the case at all. It seems to me that the hardcore gamers are the ones foaming at the mouths because they want uber PvP templates, and the casual gamers are the ones that have no problem with the SoC system.

I'm a casual gamer, and I'm fine with unlocking/stealing skills/spells. I dig the exploration, I enjoy poking off into unchartered land, getting into all sorts of crazy battles, etc., so for me, who treats the game very casually, the SoC system doesn't bother me in the least, and I have a feeling that's how it is for a lot of the truly casual players here.

I'm seeing a few people quoting the GuildWars synopsis, and attempting to "prove" that ANet is contradicting that press release, but there's no contradiction. There's no false advertising. There was never any misinformation.

Quote:

If you like Player-versus-Player competition, Guild Wars was made for you. In addition to building up a character by undergoing missions and quests, you can choose to create a character specifically for head-to-head PvP competition or guild warfare. The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete.

All that says is you have two options for creating characters, one of them being a full roleplaying character that you build up and develop through quests and missions (which we have), and the other being a character ready-made for PvP (which we have).

There's no doubt in my mind that the ready-made PvP character the excerpt refers to is the Shock Sniper, Divine Healer...the pre-made, named builds.

"You won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete" specifically deals with leveling, so there's no false advertising there, either.

As much as some people want to scream conspiracy or misleading developers...ArenaNet is sticking to what they said they were doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EetGnomeSmasher

I'm really tired of people telling others what they need or don't need.

I can say with utmost confidence that you missed entirely what Sidra Meum was saying.

He (she?) wasn't telling you what you specifically need for the game. Sidra was merely explaining that from the developer's standpoint, Elites aren't needed to jump into PvP, and never were needed. The players are the ones who set the curve, so to speak, so any "need" for Elite skills is based on the "hardcore grinders."

And I think that's a really important point to consider...because the only reason anything feels like a grind in the first place is because powergamers are the ones setting the pace in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Yet there is a TON of grinding compared to guild wars beta weekend events (even discounting the all skills unlocked function of the last two).

Ignoring the fact that it's only grinding because players have transformed it into a race...Betas are just that. Betas. What you see, do, experience in a Beta weekend is not set in stone, and to expect All Skills Unlocked, or all skills in every Vendor, etc., in the final retail release is largely ignoring what the Beta is; kairusan summed it up nicely:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kairusan

I am not sure but if the elite skills were at the intown merchants during the early release of the game or only during the beta. But with my experience with other games they usually make things that are going to be hard to get very accessible to the gamers so they can try every aspect of the game during beta testing.

That's why these criticisms are largely illegitimate...because they're largely based on something that was designed a particular way for a very particular reason (the Beta Experience, as it were), and a reason that has no bearing or relevance to the full retail version of the game.

goku19123 · May 10, 2005, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra Meum

Once you have a skill. Its unlocked. For your account. Completely. Its not like you just spent 70 hours getting a kick ass set of armor and this l33t sword only to have someone loot it from you and all your work goes down the drain.

I am aware of unlocking, I was merely stating that hunting down many elites is time consuming (especially if you want to try out different builds).

Edit: As a note, I was not saying "make elite skills available ONLY at skill vendors." I was saying to keep the system we have now AND make them available at skills vendors so that there is at least one other way to get elite skills. Clearly, the definition of which would be a bigger "grind" is subject to opinion, and clearly Arena.net wants people to work for those skills. So who cares if someone spends 2 hours getting the elite with an SoC or spends 3000 gold for it? They both take about the same amount of time to accomplish - the only difference is now a casual gamer can spend 30 minutes here and there gathering gold for it, instead of being screwed out the skill because that person doesn't have 1 hour+ to sit down with his/her thumb up their ass trying to hunt for it.

Edit2: I define the casual gamer as someone who can only play gw for 1-15 hours a week.

Siren · May 10, 2005, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

Edit: As a note, I was not saying "make elite skills available ONLY at skill vendors." I was saying to keep the system we have now AND make them available at skills vendors so that there is at least one other way to get elite skills. Clearly, the definition of which would be a bigger "grind" is subject to opinion, and clearly Arena.net wants people to work for those skills. So who cares if someone spends 2 hours getting the elite with an SoC or spends 3000 gold for it? They both take about the same amount of time to accomplish - the only difference is now a casual gamer can spend 30 minutes here and there gathering gold for it, instead of being screwed out the skill because that person doesn't have 1 hour+ to sit down with his/her thumb up their ass trying to hunt for it.

goku, well, there's the rub, isn't it? Your idea has good intent, but if you were selling Elite skills at 3k a pop...do you know how much mob hunting it would take to get only three Elite skills at that price?

I don't know about anyone else, but I've been fairly frugal with my expenditures in-game--not to the point of hoarding gold, but only spending when I need to--and I only recently broke 2500...and I just hit Lion's Arch. This is with selling weapons I pick-up, selling extra artifacts, Charr Carvings (and the other useless Collector items once I got what I needed), mind.

I think adding Elite skills to Vendors at a price of even 1k is going to create a major, major grind, which would turn out even worse and longer than the SoC "grind." I mean think about it. What are people going to be doing when they see Energy Drain, Ineptitude, and Migraine all selling for 2k each? They're going to go out and farm mobs like there's no tomorrow. It's just going to breed more powergamers/powergrinders. It's not going to solve anything.

I'm going to say it again: the probability of adding Elite skills to the skill vendors to alleviate the issue of the grind, even if it's added as an alternative to SoC, having any dramatic improvement on powergaming/powergrinding is slim to none, because it's not going to change any perceptions of the Elite skill system. All it's going to do is compound the "problem" by creating a longer, more boring grind.

Plus, the issue is not the system, whatever that system may be. The issue is the gamers themselves who create the grind when there isn't one (the race I mentioned earlier). SoC is not a grind. Skill vendors selling Elite skills at 2k a pop, given the already enhanced yet still rather limited gold drops? That's getting very close to a guaranteed grind, I'd think.

So far, the most viable solution is the Quest-based Elite SoC changes. Adding Elite skills to Vendors is not addressing the issue; it's merely creating another issue. I don't think the SoC system is horrible, I don't think it's as game-breaking as some here lead us to believe, because it really isn't. It merely needs a bit of a tweak.

GuildWars isn't quickly becoming mediocre. It's becoming fine-tuned. ANet is adding in new features, and over the next two or three months, I'm pretty sure we'll be seeing some changes and progression. The Quest-based idea is a solid one, and I don't think it'd be radical to incorporate it into the game.

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Ah yes, now we are starting to see all the uber l33t insta pvp crowd moan because theyve realised very soon their going to be at a severe disadvantage to people who have come through the PvE area.

And I think thats great. People who have delved deep into this game get greater rewards, people who spend hours perfecting their characters will have better characters to take into a fight. People who are serious about Guild Wars and not just logging on to 'rape' an opponent and log off get the most out of it. A true breath of fresh air in todays gaming market where all the tricks of a game appear on forums within days of release, and all anyone has to do to find out how to play to a high standard is read the forums.

Welcome to Guild Wars guys, a game where you have to be really good at the entire game, to be any good at the game.

Please take your moaning elsewhere. Anyone with longer than a 10 minute attention span doesnt really care.

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Siren - lions arch is perhaps a third of the way through the game. Probably a quarter. Judging how much of a grind something is going to be based off your admittedly limited experience of the pve game hardly seems reasonable.

3k does not take much killing and looting to accomplish in the later zones, and as the suggestor pointed out it would allow the accumulation to take place in smaller doses so they don't have to spend large chunks of their life at once to acquire one skill.

Quote:

I'm going to say it again: the probability of adding Elite skills to the skill vendors to alleviate the issue of the grind, even if it's added as an alternative to SoC, having any dramatic improvement on powergaming/powergrinding is slim to none, because it's not going to change any perceptions of the Elite skill system. All it's going to do is compound the "problem" by creating a longer, more boring grind.

It was this way in beta, and damned few people complained about elites being a grind. No one at all that i know of complained that they were too easy to get.

Quote:

Ah yes, now we are starting to see all the uber l33t insta pvp crowd moan because theyve realised very soon their going to be at a severe disadvantage to people who have come through the PvE area.

And I think thats great. People who have delved deep into this game get greater rewards, people who spend hours perfecting their characters will have better characters to take into a fight

Did you ever read the design statments a.net made about guild wars? its linked to above, and says the exact opposite of what you're propounding as the goal of guild wars - where skill, not time spent playing, matters more. Skill requires an even playing field in terms of game abilities, and if you create a time sink to get some abilities, like elites, you therefore no longer have an environment where skill is paramount to winning.

Did it ever cross your mind that people don't particularly care for beating up on near helpless AI whose only chance at defeating you lies in its ridiculous stat bonuses? that they might enjoy the interplay between various skill bar selections when there are people directing them? no?

The skill system guild wars has offers a wonderful chance for competitive play, but they're gutting it by making the bar to enter competitive play both high and tedius to reach.

Laz

Jackell · May 10, 2005, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Yes, I said an elite skill is not the be all end all.

Yes, I said their strong and cool.

No, those don't counteract each other.

A warriors dragon sword is strong and cool. It's not the be all end all of warriors though.

Get out from under your brdige and go away troll. Your moaning, whining, and grossly misinterpreting what everyone says is making making your point less and less valid, and making everyone's stronger.

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Siren - lions arch is perhaps a third of the way through the game. Probably a quarter. Judging how much of a grind something is going to be based off your admittedly limited experience of the pve game hardly seems reasonable.

3k does not take much killing and looting to accomplish in the later zones, and as the suggestor pointed out it would allow the accumulation to take place in smaller doses so they don't have to spend large chunks of their life at once to acquire one skill.

It was this way in beta, and damned few people complained about elites being a grind. No one at all that i know of complained that they were too easy to get.

Did you ever read the design statments a.net made about guild wars? its linked to above, and says the exact opposite of what you're propounding as the goal of guild wars - where skill, not time spent playing, matters more. Skill requires an even playing field in terms of game abilities, and if you create a time sink to get some abilities, like elites, you therefore no longer have an environment where skill is paramount to winning.

Did it ever cross your mind that people don't particularly care for beating up on near helpless AI whose only chance at defeating you lies in its ridiculous stat bonuses? that they might enjoy the interplay between various skill bar selections when there are people directing them? no?

The skill system guild wars has offers a wonderful chance for competitive play, but they're gutting it by making the bar to enter competitive play both high and tedius to reach.

Laz

And have YOU played Guild Wars yet? Did anyone in a.net say skill was a thing you would not have to learn/earn/grind to get? I see very little games where SKILL doesnt take hours and hours of hardcore gaming to get. YOU want a pick up and play game with no depth, no challange, everything unlocked instantly, whereas what WE have got is deeply complex game that doesnt take long to LEARN but is going to take MONTHS and MONTHS of playing to MASTER.

Again I applaude, learning to become really really good at a game is not a grind, its something very few dedicated individuals in all games manage.

Afaik, a.net aim wasnt to create a game where everyone could play and be the Ultimate Warrior/Mage blah blah within minutes installing the game. They wanted to make it fun, while removing some of the worst elements of RPG's, thus we have to walk to mission objectives but can teleport back.
If you do nothing but PvP, and cannot stand to play PvE whatsoever, then yes I can undertsand you are going to be at a disadvantage. The point remains that Guild Wars is not the game for you if you want to be the absolute best without doing PvE, nor by ignoring parts of the game you dont like will you ever be the best at this game.
Thats what I love about MMO competitive games, Homeworld 2 was, still is, head and shoulders above most, because for all the arguements blah blah, the best will usually win in style. You get all upset because creating a trully brilliant character is going to mean you have to do things you dont like. LOL, I can see you are a newbie to online competitive gaming.

Hope to wipe the floor with you one day with my PvE characters in the HoH, catch you later.

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Kicking the snot out of braindead AI is not a challenge. Its repetitive and boring. You can master pve all you want, the moment you step into tombs or even arena you're gonna get creamed. Fighting people who actually do stuff like move out of freaking AoE's is a whole other world than fighting bugs that use 3 skills and beg to die.

I'll try to use small words here to make it easy to understand - competitive pvp requires an even playing field for skill to matter. The only measure of player skill you can see displayed in game is the way they utilize their available abilities. If one player is handicapped because he doesn't have access to some abilities simply due to the fact of not spending time completing actions that otherwise have no bearing on pvp you have a situation where player skill is minimized.

The games skillset is balanced around it being available IN TOTAL to the competing parties. Try to grasp that. Having the entire skillset unlocked doesn't make you an uber warrior - all it does is make you even. Not having it unlocked means you're fighting under a handicap.

All that forcing people to play pve to become competitive at pvp does is make it so that you won't see player who understand the game well and can play it well (player skill) but have limited time. Despite your avid belief that playing 1 billion hours in a game makes you incredibly good at it, this is not always the case.

By all means jump directly to tombs after doing nothing but pve. Your teams will hate you with an unbridled passion for your uselessness. Feel free to spam something like virulence(elite) right on the enemy warriors, show how all that time spent farming is put to good use.

Laz

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Sorry for the double post, I forgot to add what I wanted to say on the issue of elite skills.

If you make them easier to find then everyone is going to have them, like everyone would find the best sword, etc. No matter how little they play. If you give them to pre made PvP characters not only might you as well give them access to all their skills, but all PvE characters who have not managed to get them will be severly disadvantaged in the later game.
The way its done now every single player in the game has to put in a bit of effort, or show a bit of skill, to attain them. You cant give a PvP build such a massive advantage over a PvE character in PvP. But you can disadvantage a minority of players.

So to keep the game fair and not easy, balanced and not a pick up and ownz0r All, I would say annoy a few Frag Junkies here for the kill and not the game.

Personally having played a lot of pvp mmo's, like Eve-Online amongst a lot of others, and almost no FPS at all, this is one of the best thought out, most interesting games iv seen to date.

You can do it all if you want whenever, but like the best games real dedication and skill is required if you want to be one of the best at the game.

May 10, 2005, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Master PvE? If you think theres even such a trick to mastering the PvE of GW you're sadly mistaken. Why should anyone who grinds through PvE have any advantage over any one else?

Heres a quick tip to beat just about any mission in the game with henchies till you hit the desert:

Play a minion nec/mo or nec/ele. Find animate bone horrors+taste of death+death nova+rotting flesh or some other disease causing spell.

Play a fire el/mo or el/mes and just use AoE spells along with energy managament. There you've mastered PvE by reading this post in 1 minute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

The games skillset is balanced around it being available IN TOTAL to the competing parties. Try to grasp that. Having the entire skillset unlocked doesn't make you an uber warrior - all it does is make you even. Not having it unlocked means you're fighting under a handicap.

Thanks, atleast someone has a clue to how a balanced PvP game works.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 10, 2005, 08:56 AM // 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackell

Yes, I said an elite skill is not the be all end all.

Yes, I said their strong and cool.

No, those don't counteract each other.

A warriors dragon sword is strong and cool. It's not the be all end all of warriors though.

Get out from under your brdige and go away troll. Your moaning, whining, and grossly misinterpreting what everyone says is making making your point less and less valid, and making everyone's stronger.

How funny you calling me a troll when all you can do is flame and insult. Again with the hyprocrisy. And learn to spell!

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Kicking the snot out of braindead AI is not a challenge. Its repetitive and boring. You can master pve all you want, the moment you step into tombs or even arena you're gonna get creamed. Fighting people who actually do stuff like move out of freaking AoE's is a whole other world than fighting bugs that use 3 skills and beg to die.

I'll try to use small words here to make it easy to understand - competitive pvp requires an even playing field for skill to matter. The only measure of player skill you can see displayed in game is the way they utilize their available abilities. If one player is handicapped because he doesn't have access to some abilities simply due to the fact of not spending time completing actions that otherwise have no bearing on pvp you have a situation where player skill is minimized.

The games skillset is balanced around it being available IN TOTAL to the competing parties. Try to grasp that. Having the entire skillset unlocked doesn't make you an uber warrior - all it does is make you even. Not having it unlocked means you're fighting under a handicap.

All that forcing people to play pve to become competitive at pvp does is make it so that you won't see player who understand the game well and can play it well (player skill) but have limited time. Despite your avid belief that playing 1 billion hours in a game makes you incredibly good at it, this is not always the case.

By all means jump directly to tombs after doing nothing but pve. Your teams will hate you with an unbridled passion for your uselessness. Feel free to spam something like virulence(elite) right on the enemy warriors, show how all that time spent farming is put to good use.

Laz

Dude my vocabulary is not something you should underestimate, but your attempt to insult me is irrelevent. Point is that everything is available to everyone in this game, its just you dont want to explore this entire game.
One of the the bonuses about PvE over PvP is that the attainment of skills is done slowly, and in small numbers. This means that you get a skill, at a low level, and then can spend hours simply experimenting with that one skill.

You show your total lack of understanding of this game by saying kicking the snot out of npc's doesnt require skill, I challange you to walk directly from Piken Square to Yaks Bend at level 11, oh thats right, you have no idea what im talking about.

You dont want to grind your way through the PvE areas, fine dude, thats your choice. Their is a large portion of the player base who think for a MMO this is one of the most atmospheric and stunning worlds ever created.
The fact of the matter is that you want it all right now, simply to compete against others in combat. This magnificent game does not give you that ability, so why do you still play? Plenty other people, myself included, are into their second or third characters, having completed the game as far as levelling goes with their previous characters.
Players like me who have put the time into exploring the game the developers created can if we do it correctly get the most out of the game. So stop your whining, it will take some degree of skill to gain access to the best skill and equipement, they dont just sit on the nearest scorpion ready for some n00b with a big sword to rip through.

As I have said before, although your impressive skills of denial will no doubt have prevented you from undertsanding this, is that those people who master this game, not spend the most time on it, but MASTER it, are going to have the best advantages. Skill at the WHOLE game, not just PvP, is going to determine what you have access to. If you think you are so impressive at Guild Wars why dont we both make PvE characters and meet up? Obviously you will able to tear through the game as fast as me atleast, suffering the same number if not less deaths gaining the same stuff if not better?

This game is here for people to master, there is no rush to do so, you might be top of the ladder for now, but im pretty sure in the future we are going to see people top the ladder for long stretches at a time. Why should you be able to claim the highest honours in the game by ignoring large parts of it? Skill at Guild Wars the game is going to tell in the future. So for your sake you better start brushing up your PvE skills, otherwise for all I care you can stop playing.
And good riddence.

Manderlock · May 10, 2005, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Kicking the snot out of braindead AI is not a challenge. Its repetitive and boring. You can master pve all you want, the moment you step into tombs or even arena you're gonna get creamed. Fighting people who actually do stuff like move out of freaking AoE's is a whole other world than fighting bugs that use 3 skills and beg to die.

I'll try to use small words here to make it easy to understand - competitive pvp requires an even playing field for skill to matter. The only measure of player skill you can see displayed in game is the way they utilize their available abilities. If one player is handicapped because he doesn't have access to some abilities simply due to the fact of not spending time completing actions that otherwise have no bearing on pvp you have a situation where player skill is minimized.

The games skillset is balanced around it being available IN TOTAL to the competing parties. Try to grasp that. Having the entire skillset unlocked doesn't make you an uber warrior - all it does is make you even. Not having it unlocked means you're fighting under a handicap.

All that forcing people to play pve to become competitive at pvp does is make it so that you won't see player who understand the game well and can play it well (player skill) but have limited time. Despite your avid belief that playing 1 billion hours in a game makes you incredibly good at it, this is not always the case.

By all means jump directly to tombs after doing nothing but pve. Your teams will hate you with an unbridled passion for your uselessness. Feel free to spam something like virulence(elite) right on the enemy warriors, show how all that time spent farming is put to good use.

Laz

You can think what you want about PvE players, but your wrong. A good PvE player would not get "creamed" in tombs. Because a *good* PvE player already has a good grasp on teamwork. There are good PvE players and bad ones, just like there are good PvP players and bad ones.

Dont think that all PvE players are horrible. The best player is one that understands all aspects of the game, not just the PvP side.

You need to look at what your wanting to do, making *ELITE* skills avalible to all. They would need to change the name if this happends. You say that it handiecaps the PvPers gaming, then in your next thought you say that an *ELITE* skill would matter not.

This is good, and it needs to stay the way it is. If you require further explanation read my above post.

May 10, 2005, 09:02 AM // 09:02

You can not master Guild Wars through PvE. If you think that's the case your just a scrub in any real players eyes.

And also for you people that keep using straw man arguments: they are not called elite skills due to their exclusiveness. They are elite due to the fact that a mechanic was needed to balance potential broken combinations or skills that do things the classes normally shouldnt be doing. Stop making stuff up and if you dont know what you're talking about-dont post it.

Lazarous · May 10, 2005, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Where did this asinine concept of 'working' in order to play a game come from? everquest?

PvE is, bluntly, boring as watching paint dry for me and a lot of other people who like a lot of the game concepts and gameplay guild wars has. Its work - something i do not for its own merit but because i wish to do something fun later. This is not nor should it ever be a function in a game. Saying that you need to 'earn' something just to play the game competitively is the worst kind of nonsense i can dream up.

Quote:

The way its done now every single player in the game has to put in a bit of effort, or show a bit of skill, to attain them. You cant give a PvP build such a massive advantage over a PvE character in PvP. But you can disadvantage a minority of players.

How is adding elite skill trainers into the game giving pvp a massive advantage over pve characters? How is adding quests that unlock elite skills giving pvp characters a massive advantage over pve characters? Show how *one* of the options presented in this thread favors pvp characters before you say stuff like that.

Flat out - casual players that don't have time to grind like mofos are at a disadvantage with this system. They will enter arena, meet one of your fearsome l337 kiddies who does nothing but farm elites and runes all day, get smashed over and over because they can't put the time investment into becoming 'good players' even though they'd likely kick the l337 kiddies butt if they had all the upgrades and skills available to them.

Dedication and skill are all wonderful things when they actually mean something to the game you're playing. PvP is not like PvE in guild wars, and will not be the same in any game right up until the point actual AI is created. Its like saying you have to master basketweaving to become the greatest swordsman who ever lived - nonsense.

Laz

Manderlock · May 10, 2005, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

You can not master Guild Wars through PvE. If you think that's the case your just a scrub in any real players eyes.

To truly master Guild War you need to be skilled in PvP and PvE.

However its true that this game is what you make it. If you only want to only master PvP go ahead.................................and just use the premades.

eventhorizen · May 10, 2005, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

You can think what you want about PvE players, but your wrong. A good PvE player would not get "creamed" in tombs. Because a *good* PvE player already has a good grasp on teamwork. There are good PvE players and bad ones, just like there are good PvP players and bad ones.

Dont think that all PvE players are horrible. The best player is one that understands all aspects of the game, not just the PvP side.

You need to look at what your wanting to do, making *ELITE* skills avalible to all. They would need to change the name if this happends. You say that it handiecaps the PvPers gaming, then in your next thought you say that an *ELITE* skill would matter not.

This is good, and it needs to stay the way it is. If you require further explanation read my above post.

Dude its a fact that the best players are going to come from the PvE side, all that rushing straight into a PvP character does is narrow your veiwpoint on characters abilities, give you instant gratification without the learning process, and create whiners.
This game is about how you make your character. Be it PvP PvE or whatever, it comes down to the skills you use, and the attributes you build up, as well as knowing how other people play too. Thus it would appear to me that the players who are going to be able to build the best characters from what they have access to are the players with the greatest knowledge about the entire game.

If you dont learn how to play Guild Wars, you are going to fail at it.

Let me ask Lazarus this question, do you hide behind rocks if you are a caster to take out enemy rangers? Thats something I discovered ingame, and its no big deal knowing it, but iv never used a PvP only character.