Curse

Sidra Meum · May 09, 2005, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

I love how some of you compare GW to other games like COH or Lineage 2. Well a lot of us didnt buy GW to play COH! Try another tired old line please.

Also, I don't see how the crappy skill capturing system is strictly a PVP player's gripe. I mostly play PVE yet I hate the skill capturing system. It's flawed in so many ways, I really wonder about the people who say it's fine. Either they've never tried it or they got lucky in getting their skills on their first tries.

To me, the Elite skills capturing system is a hidden way of extending the "grind" of GW. Sure you can get up to level 20 real quick, but then what about the other stuff like your last 30 attribute points and all the Elites you want to get?

So tell me to go play another game. I'm sure ANET would love that. GW was supposed to be revolutionary...but it's slowly slipping towards mediocrity. And yes I still think it's a great game. Don't even bother flaming me for flaming the game.

You have no reason to be so defensive and crude in your post. No one here has been, and not towards you in this thread. I havnt seen anyone compare GW to another game in this thread. I myself said if you want to see what REAL Gameing "Grind" is, to go play COH. But I am sure most gamers very well know what "Traditional Grind" is like. GW Grinding and COH Grinding(along with most of all other MMOG's)... cannot even be compared and the "Grind" in GW is nothing but laughably called "grind". Arena Net has NEVER said there is NO grind in GW. There is.. but compared to other games... it just isnt worth calling it Grind. Elite skills are just THAT. I like the capture system. You have to spend two hours tracking down a boss to earn an elite skill... You deserve it. You shouldn't be able to walk up to a vendor and simply buy it.
Somethings you should have to "Grind" for. That is far different then spending 400 hours to get to a level where you get __ weapon or power that makes your gameplay drastically change to where you can TRUELY begin to play and enjoy the game.

People neglect to see that Elite Skills, Runes... ect are not things NEEDED in the game. They are WANTED. There is very little grind for things you need, while yes - there is slightly more for the things you WANT. You don't have to spend your time getting these things. Its completely optional. Problem is.. people don't see it as that.

I am sure ANet doesnt care when someone tells another person to go play another game if they do not like GW. They wont be looseing any money, they dont charge to play. I won't tell you to play another game, I wont flame you either. But instead of just complaining.. you could make suggestions on how to change it.

butcherboy · May 09, 2005, 08:00 PM // 20:00

"Guild Wars" describes the war between guilds in the PvE realms. PvP seems to be something they added to allow PvP for those who want to try PvP vice PvE casually. PvP isn't the premise of GW at all. GW is a story driven, quest based (monsters give XP, but missions and quests are what usually level me up the fastest), CORPG with PvP content areas.

Selling skills in town would simply attribute to cash grind and monster farming grind and wouldn't be any sort of reward as it is. The Signet of Capture thingie sounds like an excellent way for players to devise their own quests ("I need the super springy arrow skill that the Gonks have in the brushlands so I will make an expedition to go there and get that skill") vice grinding ("I'll have 5000gp for my l33t super springy arrow skill if I kill 20k more Gonks because the Gonks have good cash drops"). No grind no problems.

The Signet of Capture will add some more interm things to go do while we wait for the expansion chapters to arrive. Of course, there always seems to be a few quests here and there that I didn't "find" the first time throught the territory so I still won't be bored.

A quick expansion for those who are done would be an undead invasion in the icelands where the player can take part in the elimination of a necro conquerer wanna be. I bet the signet might find more use there...

Siren · May 09, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davey

I agree with all the things you said except about the people you so call 'crybabies'. All games are based on winning/completion, because what else would be the use of playing it?

I'm glad you brought that up, because it's a good point. Games are based on winning/completion, yes, but I think there's a distinct difference between simply being competitive/completist and just being a prick, and I haven't seen anything so far that would color the whiners here as being anything better than pricks (and ignorant ones, at that).

I mean, there aren't even any suggestions being offered in the complaints here. It's all just childish ranting, bitching and moaning. At least in the Official Suggestions Thread for the Betas and so forth, people were actually offering ways to improve the game (and things that made sense, too). Here, though, none of that is happening. All I see is just "OMFG teh systim suxxors!1!!11"

If they had legitimate posts (i.e., mature, sensible arguments that catered to something other than elitist n00bish 'I wanna be teh bestors of all-tyme'), then I'd be inclined to say they're something other than egotistical crybabies.

So, basically, there's a line between criticism and outright bitching and moaning. 99% of what I've seen crossed that line. If people want to not be seen as crybabies, they need to stop crying and think about how they can improve a game dynamic that they feel is "breaking" the game.

And actually, that's another thing. The "critics" are screaming about how the SoC/unlocking system is breaking the game, making the game un-fun, etc...it hasn't made the gameplay, game dynamics--or anything, really--unplayable. It's only unplayable in their minds, because they just don't want to give two shits about the larger picture. They hyperfocus on PvP, like it's the only thing to do in this game, and then bitch about how their options are "limited," when in fact GuildWars has more options for PvP than most games I've seen/played.

They're crying like babies, hence, they're crybabies.

kayten · May 09, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

you know....it occurs to me that someone missed something.

the skills you want.....they're called ELITE. that means they are for ELITE players. NOT CASUAL. yes, it's tough, but that's because you have to EARN it. and i agree, it's a little grind, but like others have said, i LAUGH at calling it a grind. you want grind? get a gem of lost memories on DAOC. i sat for six days waiting on the mob to pop, killed it, and the item still didn't drop. that was sooooo not fun. at least with this "grind" you get the chance to still play the game. i mean...you want everything handed to you so easy? then everyone would just make a 20 pvp character to start woth, go to pvp, and all that wonderful world would be wasted!!!

so, here's the breakdown. quit your witching, get the signet, and get your skills, to prove you're WORTHY!

Than · May 09, 2005, 08:47 PM // 20:47

This is a little off-topic, but how does the Signet system work exactly? How do you 'capture' skills from bosses?

QTFsniper · May 09, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Hey, if all you people who make PVP characters want everything unlocked that would be too unfair. Alright, here's my Ranger (PvE) walking into fort koga with all the pvp only people.. with every skill unlocked. That would be a bit unfair for the pve people joining dont you think?

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 09, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra Meum

You have no reason to be so defensive and crude in your post. No one here has been, and not towards you in this thread. I havnt seen anyone compare GW to another game in this thread. I myself said if you want to see what REAL Gameing "Grind" is, to go play COH.

First don't tell me that I was crude when I wasn't. Just because I stated an opionion different from yours doesn't mean I'm crude or defensive. Take your own advice about not being defensive.

Second, Siren has been calling people "crybabies" if that's not someone being crude then I don't know what is. Third, yes you did compare GW to COH since you compared the grind. How else do you define comparisions? When you put two things together and talk about similarities and differences, that's comparing!

And this part isn't addressed to you specifically, but for those people who keep bringing up the unlocking all skills option, well this is NOT about that. This is about the Elite skills system being flawed.

And Elites not being for casual gamers? Who says? So GW has taken a new direction? I thought GW was supposed to be less about wasting time for things that could potentially be unbalancing. And not having Elite skills for some IS an imbalance.

Also it's funny that a lot of you associate spending long tedious hours on gaining something as "accomplishment" Well, I'm glad you people are so proud of that fact. But there are some who don't consider a tedious frustrating boring system as fun.

Eclair · May 09, 2005, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Spending 2 hours to get a really powerful skill is considered grinding? You only have to get the skill once and its unlocked for all your characters. Not to mention, you can only equip 1 elite at a time, so at the most you're going to be only getting 3-4 elites for your class/subclass.
If you want instant access to every single elite in the game, then I think you're asking for too much. PvP people fight with the same crowd as PvE, why should PvE who've worked their characters up to PvP standards and found their gear to match up to PvP standarsd get jipped when it comes to elite skills?

Tala · May 09, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Okay, jumping into the deep end of the pool here without my arm floaties.

I am not a fan of the capture signet, but not for PVP reasons. I don't care for PVP myself. I love the PVE game here; it's awesome.

My complaint is more story driven. I've looked over the elite skills available and they are indeed awesome. I will want to unlock all of them for when I *do* fill in for someone in my guild at GvG times.

I find it hard to believe that only *monsters* have these skills. Why don't the good guys have these things? That makes no sense. Storyline purposes alone, if that was the case the first hero who ran out and captured the skill from a monster would surely share with his allies to help his side win.

My suggestion would be to have elite trainers. Once you reach 20 you would have to talk to this trainer. He would give you a quest. You'd still have to defeat the same monster, but your reward would be the new skill.

Perhaps they could even allow strict pvp'ers to have access to these quests so they too could acquire the elite skills.

But that's just my opinion.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 09, 2005, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

Spending 2 hours to get a really powerful skill is considered grinding? You only have to get the skill once and its unlocked for all your characters. Not to mention, you can only equip 1 elite at a time, so at the most you're going to be only getting 3-4 elites for your class/subclass.
If you want instant access to every single elite in the game, then I think you're asking for too much. PvP people fight with the same crowd as PvE, why should PvE who've worked their characters up to PvP standards and found their gear to match up to PvP standarsd get jipped when it comes to elite skills?

Um no. PVP is always dynamic and changing. To say that PVP builds will only use 3-4 elites especially when you're constantly building different professions/sub classes is showing just how much you know about PVP. Not a whole lot.

And the issue isn't that 2 hours is long, but that the time spent doing it is boring frustrating and just tedious. I've spent hours redoing a mission so the boss I wanted (because it changes professions at random) was there AND using the elite I wanted. Was that fun? Hell no.

And for crying out loud. Not everyone asked for instant access to Elites ! Just for an improvement in the current system. Stop using that invalid tired old argument. Some of you are using exaggerations to try to make your arguments.

And finally, I love PVE and that's what I do most of the time. So all that crap about this being a PVP player's gripe is totally untrue. There are plenty of PVE people who hate this system.

Eclair · May 09, 2005, 09:48 PM // 21:48

What's the difference between going on a quest to defeat that monster and going on a quest to find that monster and capture the skill? Maybe the trainers aren't good enough to teach those skills, and that's why only uber monsters have them =P

Edit: I guess the others and I feel that there should be a "grind" in getting the elite skills, as opposed to you and your supporters who believe that the skills should come easier.

Tala · May 09, 2005, 09:54 PM // 21:54

The difference is twofold.

1. Story driven. Why don't the good guys have access to this skill? Is that why we're losing?

2. I don't fill up a slot with a capture signet and hope my party doesn't accidently kill the baddie before I get the skill off of him.

Loviatar · May 09, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

[QUOTE=Eet GnomeSmasher]
And for crying out loud. Not everyone asked for instant access to Elites ! Just for an improvement in the current system. QUOTE]

allright

what is your alternate suggestion short of just putting them back with the trainers to grab as you go by?

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 09, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclair

What's the difference between going on a quest to defeat that monster and going on a quest to find that monster and capture the skill? Maybe the trainers aren't good enough to teach those skills, and that's why only uber monsters have them =P

Im going to ask a serious question not meant as a sarcastic insult...but have you used the Skill Capture system often at all?

First there are no quests in game to find a monster to capture skills. You basically have to look for the monster with the skills you want by chance or scour the forums. There is no in game help for that.

Second, the bosses aren't always in the mission. It's still the same boss but their professions often change. It's random. If I'm looking for a Ranger skill and a Warrior boss has taken it's place, I have to restart the mission.

Third, the bosses don't always use their Elites.

Fourth, some skills like stances are instant and not shown as being used or too fast to even register. So you might not even know they're using those skills. Also when capturing those stances, you'll just have to make sure you have all the skills the boss has (minus the Elite) or you'll just end up capturing a skill you don't have.

Five, it sucks for Monks. They have to toggle between the boss and teammates.

I could go on and on....

EDIT: A good suggestion for a fix has been mentioned. Quests would be much better to point you in the direction of where a monster with a specific skill is. Another is to fix the skill capturing system fixing all the points that I mentioned.

Sidra Meum · May 09, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

And not having Elite skills for some IS an imbalance.

Also it's funny that a lot of you associate spending long tedious hours on gaining something as "accomplishment" Well, I'm glad you people are so proud of that fact. But there are some who don't consider a tedious frustrating boring system as fun.

You CHOOSE or CHOOSE NOT to have an elite skill. If you want it. Go and find it. If you do not. Then don't bother. Its not an imbalance of anything. If you want to call the actual PLAYING of a game to obtain something "tedious frustrating and boring.." then don't bother with it. I have done FAR more repedative, frustrating and boring things on other games. Tracking, having to find and actually "capture" an ELITE skill from a boss... doesnt even come close.

Lazarous · May 09, 2005, 10:18 PM // 22:18

I personally detest the direction A.Net chose to take for retail release in regards to elite skills and acquiring them. They absolutely raped the skill trainers, added a ton of grinding requirements to become competitive in pvp (SoC) and still market the game as being competition driven and pvp friendly - it may be when compared to stuff like WoW, but compared to how it was during the bwe's its a stripped husk of its former glory.

You want a simple solution to what is probably going to become a huge outcry or just boycott of the game? Make skill traders give elites again. Hell, make them cost 2 skill points to acquire if you want to pander to the pve farming crowd so much, just make it so SoC isn't the only option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra Meum

You CHOOSE or CHOOSE NOT to have an elite skill. If you want it. Go and find it. If you do not. Then don't bother. Its not an imbalance of anything. If you want to call the actual PLAYING of a game to obtain something "tedious frustrating and boring.." then don't bother with it. I have done FAR more repedative, frustrating and boring things on other games. Tracking, having to find and actually "capture" an ELITE skill from a boss... doesnt even come close.

This isn't a choice if you wish to become a competitive pvp guild. A team that uses elite skill builds will smash a team that doesn't, given equal playing ability. And people aren't really comparing guild wars to other games when they say its tedius and frustrating - they're comparing it to itself before retail release. The massive change to skill acquisition is pissing a lot of people off.

Laz

Sidra Meum · May 09, 2005, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

And for crying out loud. Not everyone asked for instant access to Elites ! Just for an improvement in the current system. Stop using that invalid tired old argument. Some of you are using exaggerations to try to make your arguments.

Then why dont you make a suggestion dear? Such as.. Making Bosses have a SET Elite skill it uses, instead of the current system where you have said it changes randomly.

Eet GnomeSmasher · May 09, 2005, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidra Meum

You CHOOSE or CHOOSE NOT to have an elite skill. If you want it. Go and find it. If you do not. Then don't bother. Its not an imbalance of anything. If you want to call the actual PLAYING of a game to obtain something "tedious frustrating and boring.." then don't bother with it. I have done FAR more repedative, frustrating and boring things on other games. Tracking, having to find and actually "capture" an ELITE skill from a boss... doesnt even come close.

That's like telling people they can choose or choose not to be level 20. OR choose not to get the best armor that they can. Or choose not to have all 8 skills on their skill bar. Don't tell me that not having an Elite skill is not going to handicap me in the long run.

Again you're comparing things to other games. I don't care what you did in other games. The fact is that they could improve the Skill capturing system.

And I have pointed out point by point what's wrong with the system and have passed on someone else's suggestion.

master · May 09, 2005, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

"Guild Wars" describes the war between guilds in the PvE realms. PvP seems to be something they added to allow PvP for those who want to try PvP vice PvE casually. PvP isn't the premise of GW at all. GW is a story driven, quest based (monsters give XP, but missions and quests are what usually level me up the fastest), CORPG with PvP content areas.

That's not true. PvP is the premise of the game. Guild Wars is all about pvp and it was not something they just added. The gameplay of skills reflects this. The company background reflects this. Just because they did a good job in PvE and making PvE story driving does not mean the game is not about PvP. In the story, the "Guilds Wars" are the guilds battling each other in PvP.

I just have to explain that non-sense before I start on the issue of SoC. I am a fan of PvP, and I love holding the hall of heros. However, I think that the system of SoC is a great idea. Because the game is based on only 8 skills at a time, you only need 7 regular skills and ONE elite. If you dont like doing so called grinding of SoC, all you need is the elite skill you want for your build which takes about 2 hrs. In order to this this, it requires knowledge and skillful players have this. Because you only need 8 skills, capture other elite skills is a bonus and NOT necessary. In order to be competitive, you do not need all the elites. Arenanet obviously have thought about all this, and made the rigth decision. You can tell by the armors and items. The ones you find in the underworld and fissure are not better, they just look better. You dont need it, but it's cool to have it. Competitive PvP dont need it all.

Runes on the other hand is pushing it. I would prefer that you're allow to buy runes and make it more like the crafting system. Have more trade offs but make it so that non are necessarily better than the other.

In conclusion. the SoC system is great.

Zaklex · May 09, 2005, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Let me see here, so some people are claiming it will take over 100 - 150+ hrs to get there character PvP ready. I know at least 2 or 3 guildmates that did that with their first character within the 1st 3 days with the exception of the Elite skill(s). Do you need Elite skills for PvP, that depends on your play style and build. If your build revolves around a single Elite skill then yes, if you can do without the Elite skills then you're fine.

In my opinion it'll take only 50 - 100 hrs +/- a few, to do that, certainly not the HUNDREDS(emphasis on the "S") it would take in any other such game. Do I have that amount of time, realistically I shouldn't being a working family man, but I do make time to play ~2 hrs a night, after hours.

Can't comment on the SoC yet as I've only used it once and that was way back when it was introduced in the Dec. BWE, haven't had a need for it since. Do I mind giving up a skill slot for it, no because I happen to play a character that has an expendable skill slot(A pet ranger, replace Charm Animal with SoC and the skill list doesn't change any, just no pet).

Will I have to grind again all over to get the other professions skills, not on your life. Organized guilds will drag alternate characters through the quests/missions quickly to get those other profession skills after leaving Pre-searing Ascalon. Or, additionally, if you have two(2) accounts and can arrange to have two(2) computers side-by-side you can drag your own character(s) through the missions/quests without having to rely on others, or just use the damn henches, they are more often than not better than the human players I've been with. That is when you can even find anyone willing to do a mission/quest.

This last bit might get me in trouble, *** ****** *** **** *** *** ****** ****'* ****** **** ****** **** ****, ******* ** *** ** *** **** ******, *** ** *** ***** ******. I would love to tell you what I said but can't, infer what you will.