Curse

Arkantos · Jun 25, 2009, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Ding! Case closed.

On a different topic, I've come to see that Shelter(/Union/Displacement) plus minions isn't the terrible, awful, very bad, no good anti-combo that it first appears.

How bad it is depends on what role you want Shelter to serve. If you're using Shelter to guard against the wtfpwn, then having Shelter fry itself protecting minions and leaving the party unprotected until it comes back up is obviously bad. On the other hand, if you're using Shelter for efficient bulk damage mitigation, having minions is a slight positive, if anything. Every additional hit the monsters need to spend to bring down a minion that Shelter saved is an additional hit that's not being made against a party member. In that sense, preventing a hit against a party member by mitigating a hit against a minion or directly mitigating a hit against a party member is a wash. The slight positive comes in where party members who aren't being hit at all are going to perform better because they don't have to kite, etc. and can concentrate on killing stuff.

Everyone questioning these spirits with a MM should definitely read this post. Just wish I would have explained this earlier.

The 3 spirits are doing exactly what they're supposed to do: protect the party. They do this directly and indirectly. When enemies are attacking party members, they spirits are directly protecting the party. When enemies are attacking minions, they're indirectly protecting the party. While the party members may not be affected by them, the minions serve as tanks. The enemies waste their time attacking protected minions while the party kills them. Not only this, the minions are still doing damage, and when they finally die, they're bombs. Now, in general I think tanks are bad, but when you have 10 mini tanks with a bomb on them, they're quite amazing.

Also, amazing times everyone. Please make sure to say whether you're using the 1 man build or the 2 man build, though.

Voodoo Rage · Jun 25, 2009, 03:43 AM // 03:43

If I haven't unlocked Razah yet, any thoughts on taking an oath shot ranger as the communing rit? Or would a necro be more effective?

Arkantos · Jun 25, 2009, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

If I haven't unlocked Razah yet, any thoughts on taking an oath shot ranger as the communing rit? Or would a necro be more effective?

I'd say use Xandra as a communing rit, and a necro as a damage dealer/healer hybrid. The communing rit definitely has to be, well, a rit primary.

Voodoo Rage · Jun 25, 2009, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Yeah, I tried running a necro with all those protection rituals but I totally forgot that the whole point is for spawning to boost their hit points...

Arkantos · Jun 25, 2009, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

Yeah, I tried running a necro with all those protection rituals but I totally forgot that the whole point is for spawning to boost their hit points...

Not only that, but runes too. There's a significant difference between 0 SP/12 communing union/shelter/displacement and 11 SP/16 communing unnion/shelter/displacement.

MMSDome · Jun 25, 2009, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Next time you log on an decide to vanquish and you see me logged in feel free to ask me to join you two FFS. I am always bored doing my gay HB shit, LET ME COME.

zwei2stein · Jun 25, 2009, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

You are forgetting the armor increase of the spirits due to having higher level.

Assuming Spawning Power 10:
Shelter @ 14 Communing: Level 11 Spirit with 378 Health and 69 Armor.
Shelter @ 16 Communing: Level 13 Spirit with 434 Health and 81 Armor.

Spirits are notoriously hard to protect. Save Yourselves has no effect on them. Neither does any sort of ward. The armor increase is very significant. This also, perhaps especially so, goes for attack spirits.

I'd still say not running superiors is pretty brain-dead, if you ask me.

I though about armor during my previous post and here is what i figured out:

12 armor extra is awesome. But pointless. If your spirits are soaking damage directly on regular basis, something is wrong.

It means that you have ran out of minions, did not flag spammers apart, did not put skills like enfeebling blood to use or all that everything together.

And if your spirits are under fire, your sup wearing heroes standing conveniently next to them will be next and rather soon start getting hits they can not afford.

I'd still say they are pretty much average ... run them if you want, it does increase power of build (doh), but it misses something, there is no truly interesting break point at 15/16 for either att line that is a must-have.

---

BTW: /dancenew for assassins/ritualists summons spirits that trigger off extra healing from Feast of Souls and probably more. Abuse!

Omgopolis · Jun 25, 2009, 06:49 AM // 06:49

I've been using the 3 hero setup for a few areas in EotN and it works pretty well. I play on a paragon though, so with SY and TntF, having all the damage reduction from the communing rit seems a bit excessive. It still works pretty well, but sometimes running a restoration/channeling guy or just dropping displacement and flesh for splinter weapon and another damage spirit like anguish is nice.

I'm more fond of using this than discord stuff for sure though, 'cause I'm way too lazy to have to manually trigger 3 discords every few seconds. Now I just need to find someone so I can play around with the 6 hero version.

Also, I haven't had much luck getting minor runes for most attributes, but even without proper runes or weapons the heroes work quite well.

shinslw · Jun 25, 2009, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Does anyone use Anthem of Disruption, Anthem of Weariness and Crippling Anthem with the offensive spirits, (if you are offensive heavy) These are the only paragon skills that affects the spirits.

Life Bringing · Jun 25, 2009, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

BTW: /dancenew for assassins/ritualists summons spirits that trigger off extra healing from Feast of Souls and probably more. Abuse!

What's this?

Arkantos · Jun 25, 2009, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I though about armor during my previous post and here is what i figured out:

12 armor extra is awesome. But pointless. If your spirits are soaking damage directly on regular basis, something is wrong.

It means that you have ran out of minions, did not flag spammers apart, did not put skills like enfeebling blood to use or all that everything together.

And if your spirits are under fire, your sup wearing heroes standing conveniently next to them will be next and rather soon start getting hits they can not afford.

I'd still say they are pretty much average ... run them if you want, it does increase power of build (doh), but it misses something, there is no truly interesting break point at 15/16 for either att line that is a must-have.

---

BTW: /dancenew for assassins/ritualists summons spirits that trigger off extra healing from Feast of Souls and probably more. Abuse!

Extra armor for spirits isn't the selling point for running a superior rune.

Shelter:

12 spawning power, 14 communing

414 health, 47 damage per hit
That comes up to ~9 hits (~18 hits with AoU)

12 spawning power, 16 channeling

474 health, 43 damage per hit
That comes up to ~11 hits (~22 hits with AoU)

Union:

12 spawning power, 14 communing

326 health, 15 damage per hit
That comes up to ~22 hits (~44 with AoU)

12 spawning power, 16 communing

385 health, 15 damage per hit
That comes up to ~26 hits (~52 with AoU)

Displacement:

12 spawning power, 14 communing

385 health, 60 damage per hit
That comes up to ~6 hits (12 with AoU)

12 spawning power, 16 communing

444 health, 60 damage per hit
That comes up to ~7 hits (14 with AoU)

So, assuming AoU is used, sacrificing 75 health gets your party:

4 more 1 hit protective spirits, 8 more 1 hit shielding hands, and 2 more 1 hit critical defenses. Don't forget that ritual lord will recharge rituals 8% faster, and boon of creation will heal 6 more health (not that useful, but throwing it in there).

The difference may not be huge, but it's more than enough to make a difference. So, is it worth it? Well, it comes down to personal preference.

Life Bringing · Jun 25, 2009, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

So, is it worth it? Well, it comes down to personal preference.

This is the heart of every hero setup. So many variations work well, that you can play with them and decide what suits your profession and playstyle best. Everyone has some slight tweaks to be made to whatever cookie cutter build they're using. For some, it's sacrifiing hero hp for more powerful skills, and for others it's completely changing around a concept to what works best with whatever build they choose to run. This is one of the reasons that making a build that everyone likes is impossible.

upier · Jun 25, 2009, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Of course it doesn't really matter, but that does not progress the discussion.

Which would kinda be the point.
It stops the discussion once it gets into a loop. Both things work, so both things are good. And that just means more options for the player who might easier find something that suits their playstyle.

But if one is hell-bent to create that ultimate build - then one does not start by using subpar options.

Moloch Vein · Jun 25, 2009, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Actually, extra armor is a selling point. The attack spirits will catch aggro, you can't avoid that. If you use minions, your Shelter/Union/Displacement won't stay up (I can get back to that later - suffice to say of course it's not a non-effect to prot minions, but it's not very good, either.)

I did a vq of Sparkfly Swamp today. 48 minutes with one Celerity, one Imbagon, dual P heroes, triple spirit spammers + me as spirit spammer, one ER ele with GDW. We literally ran from mob to mob not even pausing for a cigarette. I didn't have time to flag the rits for the Unions. It didn't matter, it stayed up anyway. I died once, that was the only party death.

Arkantos · Jun 25, 2009, 09:37 AM // 09:37

An extra 12 armor isn't going to keep a spirit alive when it's being attacked. You'll get 1, maybe 2 attacks out of it. I wouldn't sacrifice 75 health so my 4 offensive heroes can possibly throw out another attack before they die, and I personally wouldn't say that's a selling point. But as I said, it comes down to personal preference. You take a greater risk for a greater reward.

Also, if you don't think minions and the 3 spirits is a very good choice, I highly recommend you read this post.

TL;DR: Monsters spend more time trying to kill minions, which means they'll take longer to target the party members and damage them. The longer they attack the minions, the more time you have to kill them without your party being damaged.

Moloch Vein · Jun 25, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Oh, I read Chthon's post, and I agree. But, that's not the entire story. Minions increase the total ally group damage you are taking by providing more target for AoE. This makes stuff like Union erode quicker without giving a comparable defensive benefit.

The extra spirit armor is a selling point, not the only selling point.

Arkantos · Jun 25, 2009, 09:57 AM // 09:57

When the minions are in AoE, yes, it does make the spirits less useful. But when they're directly being attacked by enemies, the spirits are still indirectly protecting your party by protecting the minions. Take the MM out you lose a lot of damage and meat shields, take the spirits out you lose a lot of defense.

I don't find the extra armor a selling point, you do. It comes down to opinion and personal preference, no point in arguing about it, so let's leave it at that.

radbout · Jun 25, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

I don't find the extra armor a selling point, you do. It comes down to opinion and personal preference, no point in arguing about it, so let's leave it at that.

Doesnt higher armor make the spitits catch less aggro so that they are less likely to be attacked by monster AI? Ofc a hero wearing a sup rune has lower hp which means the AI targets him faster.

I mainly put my communing hero on avoid, that already does enough wonders. the defensive spirits are pretty much always placed a little in the back where they have less chance of being targeted. I rarely see the monsters attacking them. I think the penalty of 75 hp is too great, but if you completely rune him up and give him a good staff, you can still get his hp to at least 550 (with sub rune) which I think is high enough to avoid prior AI triggering. A sup rune could be a good option then.

Arkantos · Jun 25, 2009, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by radbout

Doesnt higher armor make the spitits catch less aggro so that they are less likely to be attacked by monster AI? Ofc a hero wearing a sup rune has lower hp which means the AI targets him faster.

I mainly put my communing hero on avoid, that already does enough wonders. the defensive spirits are pretty much always placed a little in the back where they have less chance of being targeted. I rarely see the monsters attacking them. I think the penalty of 75 hp is too great, but if you completely rune him up and give him a good staff, you can still get his hp to at least 550 (with sub rune) which I think is high enough to avoid prior AI triggering. A sup rune could be a good option then.

If both the communing and channeling rits have superior runes, they'll go for any spirit. If only the channeling rit does, they'll go after the offensive spirits. But I barely see them going after any spirits, so whatever. The 75hp loss isn't that bad, especially if you keep the communing rit back. The only time it's going to be bad is if you really over-aggro and your party wipes.

ZenRgy · Jun 25, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

I ran this build and then got an error 7. Thanks, Arkantos.