Curse

fenix · Jun 23, 2009, 10:42 AM // 10:42

At the moment we're considering swapping the Curses to the Nec, and the Resto to the Rit (which had the curses). Apart from that, a couple skill changes and we should be able to get it up and running shortly.

Arkantos · Jun 23, 2009, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Clinton

So Ark, what are you considering to swap around and tweak on the builds? I think the MM/Healer Hybrid is the biggest problem atm.

Fenix is a little slow on the build, apparently.

I've already changed around the MM and channeling ritualists bars. After some more testing (and feedback from you guys who have been oh so helpful), the build should be completed. I don't see any drastic changes being made to it.

fenix · Jun 23, 2009, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Bah, not slow, just being more neutral in case we decide to change it again :P

radbout · Jun 23, 2009, 11:09 AM // 11:09

I believe you on your word that these spirits are awesome if armor of unfeeling is used right. I just dont think you should let that single communing build rely only on one spirit.

In the 1-manbuild the communing rit only has union, thats only one spirit. union alone offers poor protection I think. Even though -15dmg its nice where is it gonna get you when you take atleast 100 damage from monsters? Perhaps Displacement and shelter should maybe be added on the communing-rit instead of wep of warding and either spirit light or rezz. good protection really is that important. The downside of adding all 3 is e-management, shelters costs 25 and displacement 15 and union also 15. Thats 55 energy minus 15(?) from boon = 40. You cant do much after that other then using reclaim and lose one spirit (idk what the hero does). I would therefore say two protective spirits is most reasonable?

I tested a costumized version of spiritway (made it before you posted yours but it was almost the same). I did THK HM and noticed that sometimes the spirits where used properly and sometimes the communing hero really messed up. Maybe this was because of the many kd's in that mission, it damages the spirits or the mursats spectral agony that often killed the uninfused spirits :P. This really became a problem when later in the mission, while guarding the king, the minions got whiped thus allowing the mursat and jades to put heavy pressure on the party and also the spirits.
This is where I really noticed the penalty from the cons. Basicly without minions and spirits all that the heroes can do is try to heal up to the heavy pressure. They have no way of dealing damage (save for putrid) and the rits completely lose their e-management, damage output and protection. Sure they can try to pop up spirits again but they are easily wiped in like 3 seconds if your lucky.
Because I had to guard the king I also couldnt flag my party away. Now I do realise that if I tried harder THK might have been easy, but I'm a lazy player that wanted to properly test this build which includes seeing your options after some failing. compared to sabway you still have a SS to help deal some damage when minions wipe. Now I totally had to rely on crappy hench to help me kill the baddies cause the spirits got vanquished in 2-3 secs. Needles to say I got wiped. I did the same with sabway once, had no problems then, even went afk and still no wipe, thats how easy THK is, well using sabway at least.
I should also point out that another con is that the spirits AI can be very stupid. They sometimes love trying to hit a foe thats behind a wall or something thus reducing your parties damage output greatly. it can be very annoying. still despite this I'd say its still worth taking the offensive spirits.

This is why once again I point out that you really shouldn't rely on spirits so heavily in a lot of area's. A communing rit can be good but they are not very reliable and least of all failprove. What good is prot if it isnt there when you really need it? For 1-man lazy players that fail a lot I recommend sabway over this

.

as for 2-man I think spiritway is a great alternative for discort/sabway.

Arkantos · Jun 23, 2009, 11:20 AM // 11:20

radbout, the build has changed since I made that post.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_1_Man_Spiritway

No, this build is not going to work in every single area of the game. No build is. It's better than sabway in some areas, and worse than sabway in some areas. Spirits, even on heroes, are a quite reliable source of defense. Sure, you might have to actually flag a hero or two and micro a skill, but the end result is great. I'm willing to say that when used properly, this h/h build has the best defense out of every 1 man h/h build. It also has great offense capabilities. Don't base the effectiveness of this build off one mission. But, if you must, then go do Abaddon's Gate HM in 10 minutes and Ruins of Morah HM in 6 minutes with sabway. I'm going to go assume that you won't be able to beat those times with sabway. That doesn't mean that spiritway is better than sabway, just like sabway isn't better than spiritway just because it has problems in THK.

Go ahead and recommend sabway over this, it doesn't really bother me. This is a build that works great that a friend and I came up with, and we're sharing it with the community. You don't have to go around telling people to run sabway over this, because the people who have run this know how powerful it is.

zwei2stein · Jun 23, 2009, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

No particular need for Enfeebling Blood in the build, so of course if you need it you could bring it on your primary (5 curses makes it 10 second Weakness). Rip is a better utility because it's a very good enchantment removal, something that really has to be in there based on some of the zones we've used the build in.

In my experience, it increases life expectancy of spirits noticeably, and a-must for build based on spirits. Try it, even if you are not overloaded by physicals.

radbout · Jun 23, 2009, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

radbout, the build has changed since I made that post.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_1_Man_Spiritway

No, this build is not going to work in every single area of the game. No build is. It's better than sabway in some areas, and worse than sabway in some areas. Spirits, even on heroes, are a quite reliable source of defense. Sure, you might have to actually flag a hero or two and micro a skill, but the end result is great. I'm willing to say that when used properly, this h/h build has the best defense out of every 1 man h/h build. It also has great offense capabilities. Don't base the effectiveness of this build off one mission. But, if you must, then go do Abaddon's Gate HM in 10 minutes and Ruins of Morah HM in 6 minutes with sabway. I'm going to go assume that you won't be able to beat those times with sabway. That doesn't mean that spiritway is better than sabway, just like sabway isn't better than spiritway just because it has problems in THK.

Go ahead and recommend sabway over this, it doesn't really bother me. This is a build that works great that a friend and I came up with, and we're sharing it with the community. You don't have to go around telling people to run sabway over this, because the people who have run this know how powerful it is.

I didnt mean to say sabway is better. I meant sabway covers failing better when the monsters break through to the party. A real downside is simply that spirits can die and do so quite fast. I learned that from doing THK. I tested it for you in THK. I took the trouble of posting the results even though they where not as great as other results. I really don't at all think that 1 mission can tell it all about a build, so please do not assume I do so. I only gave you detailed information and offered ways to counter some of those cons. I did read about the awesomeness of this build b4 that already.

And what I really tried to say is that I have doubts on the communing hero as you posted it. But now that I see the improvements you made. I think it is quite good. You have improved The communing rit a lot. I'm sorry but I didn't see that in time. A communing ritualits could work in a lot of area's. and if the defensive abilities are as good as you say it is I am not at all recommending sabway over spiritway. Though the build that I see now is a bit low on healing, The protection from the communingrit should make up for that. But you cant say its a 100% reliable. Its simply not. My testrun in THK proved that :P. And thats my contribute.
Abaddons gate is easy if you take interrupt and/or pain inverter I could really beat the 10 minutes with ease using a customized version of sabway (interrupt mesmers ftw! Imo). I do gotta admit spiritways shelter will come in handy there, better then protective spirit would. So yes spiritway is the way there, aslong as they dont cast a meteorshower on a place with your spirits on it ofc :/. Might wanne bring some interrupts aswell there for a even faster time.

I do miss both condition/hex removal now however. Perhaps you should plant mend back in somewhere? And like pointed out I have doubts about the usage of spirit siphon. I watched my hero spam it, and losing time and energy, while he could be doing something useful. (but you know this already) Its hard to make a good communing-prot rit. But you've done it quite well. People have tested it and say it pwns, I will test the new build too when I've got the time. So for now I assume that the protective abilities of spirits are basicly good.

I am just trying to help, I think I am saying useful things that help you get further in developing your build, I am not at all trying to flame you or break down your build. I am sorry if I made you feel that way, I did not intend to do so. I am trying to help the community my way which is trying to point out downsides and further improvements for already good builds. In this case I thought about balancing a spiritway/sabway version to get the best of the best from both. You pointed out that communing prot is basicly great. But I have my rights to have doubted it and to express this doubt.

I think I am actually gonna devellop a more balanced sabway/spiritway version consisting of 2 necs and 1 rit. once I have some time for it that is. and I will offer it as another alternative for sabway and spiritway. NOT saying it is better. Even though it maybe is in some areas (like THK I expect). But basicly allowing people to combine the offensive power of the spirits with sabway (channeling/sabway) improving it at a low cost. Maybe its also is possible to do the same with a communing/sabway protection-version but that might prove to be a lot harder.

In my opinion your build still needs some work even though its already good. I hope I have been able to deliver some constructive criticism this time. I know I can be annoying sometimes when I actually don't want to be. I am doing my best not to be. So sorry but please try to live with it.

We cool again?

upier · Jun 23, 2009, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

At the moment we're considering swapping the Curses to the Nec, and the Resto to the Rit (which had the curses). Apart from that, a couple skill changes and we should be able to get it up and running shortly.

I am really curious how this works out.
The problems I see is the fact that if you dump resto on the SoS Channeler - this guy now has two pretty decent elites to choose from (SoS and Xinrare) and the MM/Curser has none. Second of all - I continue running resto on a necro due to unlimited energy from SR, so I am curious to see how it's absence will influence the game.
The upside is being able to use runes - but I do wonder if it's going to be enough when running heroes.

Do keep us posted on this.

AerisAMP · Jun 23, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Any ideas on a build for a human Ritualist primary to go alongside the one-man build?

radbout · Jun 23, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

You could simply go Splinter barage, or use a rt/p spawning build (using spirits strength + vital weapon + para attacks for supressive + some pveskills to improve damage, like asuran scan BUH or IATS) I recommend you take vampirism it goes well with the build.

AerisAMP · Jun 23, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by radbout

You could simply go Splinter barage, or use a rt/p spawning build (using spirits strength + vital weapon + para attacks for supressive + some pveskills to improve damage, like asuran scan BUH or IATS) I recommend you take vampirism it goes well with the build.

yeah, i just steamrolled through assault on the stronghold HM using a spirits strength scythe build. not bad.

radbout · Jun 23, 2009, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Tbh for a rit I would consider going sabway while running a spiritspammerbuild on yourself. I did that a lot (before the buff so its even better now) and basicly streamrolled through almost any HM mission I can currently think of. For 2-man I imagine running a full discordbuild + you spiritspammer would create an amazing spike. A build with 7 spirits constantly doing 120 dps constantly along with the discord spikes and you will pretty much find any mission is like NM or easier. Much like going 2-man spiritway, possibly even better. Some1 should try that :P.

I tested the new 1-man spiritbuild and I still have some doubts about the protective effectiveness of the communing hero. Sorry, but I still see it fail too much in heavy aggro situations. It works perfectly when you face few foes however, possibly better then any other prot. So yeah, it depends on the area. You cant take it just as blindly like sabway (u only gotta know if there are corpses for that.). You have to know what you are doing when you take spiritway, a build recommended be used in certain area's where there is little aoe and small amounts of (very strong) monsters. its much like it says: u cant die unless you aggro a million monsters.
Dont go do this in missions like vizunnah :P.
Also:
Gotta set something right, I realise I mixed abbadons gate up for some other torment realm mission, abbadons gate in 10 minutes isnt really that fast, I bet it could be done faster with hybrid ROJ-heroes or even discord but sabway totally sucks there, agreed, cause minions can hardly be made and ss doesnt work on the big boss. I wonder if a well aimed snipershot wouldn't insta kill him :P. anyways comparing to what ROJ can do 10 minutes is actually loooonnngggg but yeah probably its still much faster then sabway. And I did ruins of morah easily in less then 4 minutes. why? I can run it lol. So yeah those are just examples and they mean little, just as little as failing in THK.

Riot Narita · Jun 23, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I also doubt that this could take down the giant group of margos at the end of city, the hungers in veil, or the Fury. Might have a slim chance in NM, but no chance in HM.

Actually, we did some more DoA tonight - and completed the City (normal mode, no consumables). It was extremely easy until the final group, which was certainly no pushover - we had to flee a couple of times and rez up. But we managed it OK.

After that my guildmate had to leave. But I continued on, just me and the 6 heroes. I completed Stygian Veil - but I fired up the consumables to do it. It was actually very easy, although rather slow (lack of minions :-P and another human).

Life Bringing · Jun 23, 2009, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I am really curious how this works out.
The problems I see is the fact that if you dump resto on the SoS Channeler - this guy now has two pretty decent elites to choose from (SoS and Xinrare) and the MM/Curser has none. Second of all - I continue running resto on a necro due to unlimited energy from SR, so I am curious to see how it's absence will influence the game.
The upside is being able to use runes - but I do wonder if it's going to be enough when running heroes.

Do keep us posted on this.

Through testing done by myself(and I believe arkantos noticed it too), the MM hero will cast death nova on any target thats getting remotely close to dying. The problem with this is that the hero will prioritize Death Nova over all of it's heals, making it completely useless as a healer. With this new setup(seen on pvx), you have runes for the resto skills, and runes for the curses skills, making both more powerful. The presence of multiple spirits keeps the fit more or less topped out on energy through spirit siphon.

Arkantos · Jun 23, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

radbout,

Sorry about the assumptions, I was tired and not in the best mood, I apologize.

As for the reliability on the communing rit, unless you're stuck in a very small area surrounded by enemies, it is reliable. Remember that the communing ritualist does not have any skills that targets other party members - which means he doesn't have to be around party members. You can flag the hero well behind your backline and still have the spirits affecting you.

No hex/condition removal skills is a problem. In hex heavy areas, you can always pack divert hexes on your necro (you'll lose some damage, but oh well) and some sort of hex removal on you. I really want to find a place for mend body and soul on this, because it can easily remove condition stacks. I just don't know what to drop for it.

Yes, you are helping, and your feedback is much appreciated. As I said I was tired and not in a good mood, so again, I apologize.

So yeah, when facing aoe heavy mobs, flag the communing hero far back enough so it won't get hit, and everything should be fine.

And we were never not cool.

upier · Jun 23, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Through testing done by myself(and I believe arkantos noticed it too), the MM hero will cast death nova on any target thats getting remotely close to dying. The problem with this is that the hero will prioritize Death Nova over all of it's heals, making it completely useless as a healer. With this new setup(seen on pvx), you have runes for the resto skills, and runes for the curses skills, making both more powerful. The presence of multiple spirits keeps the fit more or less topped out on energy through spirit siphon.

Very nice, thanks!

Mordiego · Jun 23, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

putrib bile being the only hex for discord heroes?

fenix · Jun 23, 2009, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Putrid Bile and Painful Bond, but Painful Bond is the main one, it gets cast right as you aggro so that it covers most foes.

Vann Borakul · Jun 23, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

I think I might look into a version for caster mains so the 3 heroes aren't as tightly packed. Specifically eles, but I'll see where I go.

Oath shot R/Rts could work too, if they use the spirits such as Union with AoU.

radbout · Jun 23, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Conditions like the poison from death nova and weakness from enfeebling blood trigger discord aswell.

I also got a question about shelter and the effects of unfeeling armor. Shelter triggers life-loss on itself while unfeeling armor triggers damage reduction. Does this mean the effects of unfeeling do not apply on shelter since damage =/= health loss? Wiki says it does apply so that would mean shelters description (life-loss) is incorrect or the information on wiki is incorrect. Maybe the effects of unfeeling should be tested on shelter?

The problem is I kindof have a hard time with placing condition and hexremoval aswell. The communing hero has is hands full with spirits and his e-managent, cant be bothered to change any of this since it will make the build fail.

The channeling/resto hero could drop bloodsong (if your melee. I'm sorry I know this means less spiritpwn but I dont see any other way) and put mend there. Then leave it optional to replace rezz or splinter for hexremoval. (Or you could drop splinter for mend thus keeping bloodsong, since I mostly play casterclasses thats what I will do) The cost is great. But I think more heal and condition removal is really worth that cost.