Curse

Tyla · Mar 22, 2008, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemoonxia

Do NOT use Death Nova.

So many people put it on because it is a part of the 3N build they copied from Wiki. And it looks good on paper. But if you ever pay attention to what mm bomber is doing, you will see as soon he get 8-10 minions, he is busy casting death nova. It put him lag behind the group most of the time. Your minion should be up front to tank for your members, NOT lag behind the group most of the time. You might just take a henchman,--that could be more helpful.

Errr...what?
Death Nova is used because A. Minions die quickly. B. It's armour-ignoring damage and poison.
Just because a skill is on Wiki doesn't mean it shouldn't be used.

whufc89 · Mar 22, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Darkspirit:

I agree with you about the backup. At the start of this thread I was all for having just THREE particular heroes that I'd use everywhere I go, but having read people's suggestions etc I've decided to kit out some real decent heroes now to deal with different situations. For example, I now have an MM, a mesmer interrupter, a ranger interrupter, a curses necro, a SF ele, general melee heroes, protection heroes & healer heroes all ready to go for when the situation calls for it.

Oh and bluemoon I see where you're coming from regarding the MM always lagging behind the group now that he has Death Nova on his bar whereas before he was always either next to me with his minions or just a little behind, although for the short time I've used his new bar it hasn't presented itself to be a problem... Yet

bluemoonxia · Mar 22, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

Errr...what?
Death Nova is used because A. Minions die quickly. B. It's armour-ignoring damage and poison.
Just because a skill is on Wiki doesn't mean it shouldn't be used.

Only if you want to spend time wait for him or flag him. Sometime during vq, group moves fast, but that mm bomber always lag behind the group. It's not rare that by the time your 7 members finished a group, your mm bomber just arrived and did nothing in battle.

Amy Awien · Mar 22, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemoonxia

And no they do not use it at the right time. And when the group move forward, the mm always spend time to cast death nova, that make him far behind the group.

Disable his Death Nova while you are traveling, then enable it just before battle, when you are placing your H&H. That is - I think - what he meant by 'leading', as in commanding, directing. DN is a 100 HP AoE damage and 15 second AoE posion (another 120 HP), not something to pass by.

DarkFlame · Mar 22, 2008, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

The concept of a minion bomber is different from standard MM - you want to get the maximum number of minions per body so you can put nova on them and blow things up everywhere.

And on that note, I'd suggest dropping [skill]Aegis[/skill] for [skill]Dark Bond[/skill]. Putting that much into Prot just for one skill isn't good imo. Pump the rest of the point back into SR and whatever's left in Blood(Bond doesn't really need any points in it).

And ignore bluemoonxia. People put Nova on Nerco heroes because it works, not because its part of Sabway. Besides, MM bombers are again different from MMs in that those minions are not meant to tank, but rush into a gathered mob and die. The only tanks that do that are your stereotyped wammos and the only things they blow up are the tempers on your monks.

Tyla · Mar 22, 2008, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemoonxia

Only if you want to spend time wait for him or flag him. Sometime during vq, group moves fast, but that mm bomber always lag behind the group. It's not rare that by the time your 7 members finished a group, your mm bomber just arrived and did nothing in battle.

Yeah, I bet that 2 seconds of selecting a flag, or even disabling that skill could be soooooo painful....

bluemoonxia · Mar 22, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Disable his Death Nova while you are traveling, then enable it just before battle, when you are placing your H&H. That is - I think - what he meant by 'leading', as in commanding, directing. DN is a 100 HP AoE damage and 15 second AoE posion (another 120 HP), not something to pass by.

You can always micro your heroes. But if you can get it done without micro all the way, why not? I can live without it for most vq and HM dungeons, so just don't like to have that trouble.

whufc89 · Mar 22, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Hey guys you've all been a brilliant help so far and I can't thank you enough, this has turned my whole way of thinking (team wise) around & for the better.

My only problem now though is that with just 2 monk henchies (and having them focus on healing minions a lot of the time instead of the actual party members) my team's survivability is still not perfect. Granted, it's 100x better than what it was before this thread was made & my heroes' builds were improved, but let's say for example I was to come up against a group of ele's all of which had meteor (hydras in crystal desert HM) they could easily wipe my party within seconds if I'm not careful. The first meteor would hit and the team's health would go down by around a third, the hench would then get "confused" and start randomly healing all over the place including minions missing important worthwhile heals such as a party member about to die, and by the time the 2nd meteor hit plus a fireball we'd all be dead, or most of us anyway.

It's for this reason that I'm actually considering using one of Sab's N/RT bars (3rd & 4th ones down - http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=2). I said I wasn't going to use Sab's exact build and I haven't. If you could see my Curses & MM builds I feel that IMO they're superior to sab's versions, for ME anyway, maybe not for everyone else.

If I was to use Sab's N/RT healer hero in place of the SF ele hero, do you think this would be unnecessary? Because basically I'd have 2 healers (The N/RT healer & Mhenlo - Hench) & a protector (Lina - Hench) with this team setup. The healers being the N/RT & healer hench and the protection obviously being the protection hench. Numerous people believe having more than 2 healers/protectors is just overkill and a waste of a H/H slot. Do you think it'd be more beneficial to keep the SF ele in instead of dropping him & replacing him with the N/RT sab bar?

And last of all, which would you say would be a better choice out of the two N/RT Sab healer builds (shown in the link above)? The Icy Veins version or the Weapon Of Remedy version? I was thinking the Icy Veins version would serve me better as it has some very nice damage & brilliant healing, so it could provide support to the team offensively & defensively. The only problem I see with it though, is the fact that it has TWO item holding spells. Seeing as I've never played a ritualist myself & don't know how a hero would handle having two item holding spells on his bar, I'm not sure which build would be the better choice so I could really do with some help in this matter.

Thanks.

Terraban · Mar 22, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemoonxia

Who said the heroes lead the group? lol
Are you still in sleep or what?

And no they do not use it at the right time. And when the group move forward, the mm always spend time to cast death nova, that make him far behind the group.

Now take the word idiot back, and put in your mouth now.

I really really hope that English is not your first language.

DarkSpirit · Mar 22, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by whufc89

My only problem now though is that with just 2 monk henchies (and having them focus on healing minions a lot of the time instead of the actual party members) my team's survivability is still not perfect. Granted, it's 100x better than what it was before this thread was made & my heroes' builds were improved, but let's say for example I was to come up against a group of ele's all of which had meteor (hydras in crystal desert HM) they could easily wipe my party within seconds if I'm not careful. The first meteor would hit and the team's health would go down by around a third, the hench would then get "confused" and start randomly healing all over the place including minions missing important worthwhile heals such as a party member about to die, and by the time the 2nd meteor hit plus a fireball we'd all be dead, or most of us anyway.

Here is where having backup builds would be useful. When facing a group of caster monsters like those, interrupts become alot more important and Sab's build is especially weak in that aspect as it doesn't have a hero interrupt. Now in all fairness, depending on where you are, you can bring an interrupt hench. Or you can replace one of your heroes or even add interrupts into their skill bars as an alternative buid.

Quote:

It's for this reason that I'm actually considering using one of Sab's N/RT bars (3rd & 4th ones down - http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=2). I said I wasn't going to use Sab's exact build and I haven't. If you could see my Curses & MM builds I feel that IMO they're superior to sab's versions, for ME anyway, maybe not for everyone else.

If I was to use Sab's N/RT healer hero in place of the SF ele hero, do you think this would be unnecessary? Because basically I'd have 2 healers (The N/RT healer & Mhenlo - Hench) & a protector (Lina - Hench) with this team setup. The healers being the N/RT & healer hench and the protection obviously being the protection hench. Numerous people believe having more than 2 healers/protectors is just overkill and a waste of a H/H slot. Do you think it'd be more beneficial to keep the SF ele in instead of dropping him & replacing him with the N/RT sab bar?

I am one of those people who think that having more than 2 healers is generally an overkill.

If I use Sab's exact build, I would only bring Mhenlo (or even no additional healer) as an additional healer since there is already a N/Rt hero healer.

Quote:

And last of all, which would you say would be a better choice out of the two N/RT Sab healer builds (shown in the link above)? The Icy Veins version or the Weapon Of Remedy version? I was thinking the Icy Veins version would serve me better as it has some very nice damage & brilliant healing, so it could provide support to the team offensively & defensively. The only problem I see with it though, is the fact that it has TWO item holding spells. Seeing as I've never played a ritualist myself & don't know how a hero would handle having two item holding spells on his bar, I'm not sure which build would be the better choice so I could really do with some help in this matter.

Thanks.

I prefer the top version and I think it is the "more default" choice from Sab. The lower version is a variant for some people who may prefer more damage. Note that the lower version also sacrifices blocking and hex removal for more damage.

Yes the 2 item spells are alittle wierd, but I dont think it is that problematic since Li Ming is most useful when it is dropped so I presume Kaolai would be held most of the time (although I haven't tried the lower variant build). Even Kaolai gives a decent party heal when it is dropped.

upier · Mar 22, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkFlame

And on that note, I'd suggest dropping [skill]Aegis[/skill] for [skill]Dark Bond[/skill]. Putting that much into Prot just for one skill isn't good imo. Pump the rest of the point back into SR and whatever's left in Blood(Bond doesn't really need any points in it).

It's Aegis.
50% block for earshot guys for 9 secs.
It's worth it.
(Although personally instead of Rez I'd take PS - but even without it -> Aegis pretty much anytime over DB.)

whufc89 · Mar 23, 2008, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I prefer the top version and I think it is the "more default" choice from Sab. The lower version is a variant for some people who may prefer more damage. Note that the lower version also sacrifices blocking and hex removal for more damage.

The top version doesn't have any hex removal either though, which I found weird about Sab's Builds. Supposedly Sabway is one of the best if not THE best Hero lineup for general PvE including HM, but it doesn't even have any Hex Removal skills whatsoever

EDIT: Cleared this up in the following thread - http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...=1#post3787726 (See post 16)

Burst Cancel · Mar 23, 2008, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Nova is the #1 or #2 reason to even run a minion bomber, so I don't understand wtf you guys are on about.

You run Aegis on whoever can take it - calling it 'just one skill' really misses the extent of Aegis's effectiveness. The MB doesn't need 13 SR or Dark Bond, so putting 9~10 in prot and slapping Aegis on the bar doesn't require much sacrifice.

whufc89 · Mar 23, 2008, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Nova is the #1 or #2 reason to even run a minion bomber, so I don't understand wtf you guys are on about.

You run Aegis on whoever can take it - calling it 'just one skill' really misses the extent of Aegis's effectiveness. The MB doesn't need 13 SR or Dark Bond, so putting 9~10 in prot and slapping Aegis on the bar doesn't require much sacrifice.

/agree

12chars

Antithesis · Mar 23, 2008, 10:35 PM // 22:35

This thread does little but prove anything works in Normal Mode. The simple fact is 3 x Searing Flamers using the build Zinger posted will steamroll almost everything in NM.

whufc89, you're right in selecting an MM and a SF - in NM they're easily the strongest heroes you can take. But your builds are overly complicated, will tank on energy and use skills that heroes are either crap at using or are a waste of time when they should spam better skills. Keep it simple - 4 slots will build an excellent MM, 4 slots will build an excellent AoE Fire ele, 4 slots will build a Healer....so use the remaining 4 slots available on most hero bars for greater utility.

For example, the traditional Searing Flames bar is part AoE attack, part interrupter (mostly for energy management). The objective is to spam SF as much as possible so make it the only attack on the bar. The Mind Blast / Rodgort's Invocation bar does not need any other attacks to ensure they use MB+RI as much as possible, the rest of the bar can be filled with Earth wards or Channeling or Restoration. The Jagged Bones MM protects the party with a meatshield, deals AoE damage on their death and has room for Healing Prayers or Protection Prayers or Channeling or Restoration. A Word of Healing monk has both Healing and Protection, Sab's N/Rt has both Channeling and Restoration...about the only single-line bar you need a Curses Necro, and that's just to make sure they actually hit something.

Using this strategy you end up with hybrid characters that offer far more to a team build than those with no utility. This is much more important in HM where most of the builds in this thread will fail. It's HM where Sabway and Rachtoh's paragons really shine because of their efficient skillbars, great defense, unlimited energy engines and armour ignoring damage.

whufc89 · Mar 23, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

This thread does little but prove anything works in Normal Mode. The simple fact is 3 x Searing Flamers using the build Zinger posted will steamroll almost everything in NM. If you need more defense, drop one SF for a Paragon with "They're on Fire!" - that has far greater synergy than dropping a Fire ele into a MM-based team.

whufc89, your builds are overly complicated and/or use skills that heroes are crap at using. Keep it simple - 4 slots will build an excellent MM, 4 slots with build an excellent AoE Fire ele, 4 slots will build a Healer....so use the remaining 4 slots available on most hero bars for greater utility.

For example, the traditional Searing Flames bar is part AoE attack, part interrupter (mostly for energy management). The objective is to spam SF as much as possible so make it the only attack on the bar. The Mind Blast / Rodgort's Invocation bar should not have any other attacks to ensure they use MB+RI as much as possible, the rest of the bar can be filled with Earth wards or Channeling or Restoration. The Jagged Bones MM protects the party with a meatshield, deals AoE damage on their death and has room for Healing Prayers or Protection Prayers or Channeling or Restoration. A Word of Healing monk has both Healing and Protection, Sab's N/Rt has both Channeling and Restoration...about the only single-line bar you need a Curses Necro, and that's just to make sure they actually hit something.

Using this strategy you end up with hybrid characters that offer far more to a team build than those with no utility. This is much more important in HM where most of the builds in this thread will fail. It's HM where Sabway and Rachtoh's paragons really shine because of their efficient skillbars, great defense, unlimited energy engines and armour ignoring damage.

And on that note here's my new & revised builds. I now realise the builds I first posted were absolutely /fail & something needed to be done about them if I was going to survive in HM at all.

Well I've finally made my hero builds, and hopefully there's nothing that needs changing with them. They look like Sabway, but they are actually fairly different if you compare them (go here for the original sabway - http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...3&postcount=2). I feel my modified builds will suit my play style better. I said I wasn't going to use sabway, but after looking at the builds for a few days now & modifying different aspects to suit me better, I feel what I've come up with now is decent. Anyway, I'd appreciate it if you guys could take a look at them & let me know what you think, thanks.

Here they are:

Quote:

Livia - N/RT:

[skill]weapon of remedy[/skill][skill]splinter weapon[/skill][skill]mend body and soul[/skill][skill]spirit light[/skill][skill]spirit transfer[/skill][skill]weapon of warding[/skill][skill]life[/skill][skill]death pact signet[/skill]

Soul Reaping - 12 (8+1+3)

Restoration Magic - 12

Channeling Magic - 10

Quote:

Master Of Whispers:

[skill]jagged bones[/skill][skill]animate bone minions[/skill][skill]death nova[/skill][skill]blood of the master[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]aegis[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

Soul Reaping - 9

Death Magic - 16 (12+1+3)

Protection Prayers - 9

Quote:

Olias:

[skill]spiteful spirit[/skill][skill]barbs[/skill][skill]mark of pain[/skill][skill]enfeebling blood[/skill][skill]weaken armor[/skill][skill]splinter weapon[/skill][skill]Ancestors' Rage[/skill][skill]death pact signet[/skill]

Soul Reaping - 9 (8+1)

Curses - 16 (12+1+3)

Channeling Magic - 10

Restoration Magic - 2

The rest of the team will probably be: Me (Fire Ele) Mhenlo (healer), Herta (Earth ele), Cynn (Fire Ele), Zho (Interrupter)

One thing you'll probably notice is I didn't use [skill]signet of lost souls[/skill] on any of the builds, as I just feel it's a waste of a skill slot considering so many things around the heroes will be dying (minions blowing up, enemies dying etc) so that plus soul reaping should be enough energy management the heroes need. I also replaced [skill]protective was kaolai[/skill] with [skill]spirit transfer[/skill] as the wiki page said the heroes ALWAYS carry PWK, therefore the only use for the skill would be to give Livia +24 armor & the healing of the party members once the item was dropped would never occur. Also, whilst she's holding the item her energy & health would be lowered as she wouldn't be wielding the staff.

On the MM bomber I replaced [skill]signet of lost souls[/skill] with [skill]resurrection signet[/skill]

On the Curses Necro, I replaced [skill]signet of lost souls[/skill] & [skill]rip enchantment[/skill] with [skill]mark of pain[/skill] & [skill]weaken armor[/skill] to support my team a bit more offensively.

Anyway, yes it's like Sabway but it's not EXACTLY Sabway. I took the main point of the Sabway builds & tweaked them to my liking, but I'd just like to say thanks to Sab & everybody else who's made this all possible. I now have a much better understanding of Hero AI, team builds, what works with what etc & generally a better understanding of the game.

Thanks.

Squishy ftw · Mar 23, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

I wouldn't drop PWK, heros are very good at using it.

whufc89 · Mar 23, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squishy ftw

I wouldn't drop PWK, heros are very good at using it.

Are you sure she won't just hold it the whole time? I'm a bit worried about taking her into HM with -60 health and less energy due to her not holding her staff.

Coloneh · Mar 23, 2008, 11:03 PM // 23:03

your N/Rt has 3 straight heals and WoR. thats a huge waste of your skillbar.

I wouldnt trust the bomber with PS, but i guess thats your call.

Weaker armor is totally useless.

and I would put SOLS back on those bars. the heroes are crazy with it.

and you just remade sabway. i thought the point of this thread was to make a different hero team with some synergy.

Squishy ftw · Mar 23, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by whufc89

Are you sure she won't just hold it the whole time? I'm a bit worried about taking her into HM with -60 health and less energy due to her not holding her staff.

She will use it exactly when you can use the relief of pressure on your party.