Curse

blue.rellik · Mar 26, 2008, 12:08 PM // 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

We do know that a hero will look at PDrain/LSignet and think "Looky here! An interrupt!" rather then "Looky here! An interrupt that MANAGES energy!" right?

I used to run PD on my monky since the energy gain is sweet and it's a fail proof interrupt on heroes.
That was until I saw that this was my heroes opening move.

Leech Signet is free to cast so I don't see anything wrong with it. PDrain is only 5 energy and when it works (which should be at least 60% of the time) then your ele just got a load of energy.

Cebe · Mar 26, 2008, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

We do know that a hero will look at PDrain/LSignet and think "Looky here! An interrupt!" rather then "Looky here! An interrupt that MANAGES energy!" right?

I used to run PD on my monky since the energy gain is sweet and it's a fail proof interrupt on heroes.
That was until I saw that this was my heroes opening move.

GG is also an issue because that's the eles opening move. BUT it's much more spammable so it's better.

So my SF eles (when I use them - which is rare outside of starting areas) - mostly run JUST SF with GG and a few protection spells - Aegis, Hex/Condition removal (and ele e-management of course!). Because you basically just want them to spam SF.

All of your complaints, while they would be valid if you were talking about humans, really don't apply to heroes. Heroes require a little "foolproofing" and "hope" sometimes. The bar you quoted has Fire Attunement in it. 95% of PuG Eles think "Attunements R Nub". The hero already comes out on top.

In short, if you want a buid to be played like a human, get a human to play it. With heroes, you can only give them the most foolproof bar you can and hope for the best, because, short of microing them there is not much more you can do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That was until I saw that this was my heroes opening move.

A lot of monsters open with one of their more powerful skills. For instance, Kournan Scribes often open with Meteor, Terrorwebs open with Meteor Shower, Rain of Terrors open with Deep Freeze a lot of the time, Jade Brotherhood Mages use Dragon's Stomp pretty early in...so...I really don't see the problem with the hero using the interrupt first, potentially disrupting one of the enemy's more potent skills. Ok, so they don't need the energy then, but by the time it's recharged, unless everything is dead, they can use it to regain more energy when they most likely need it.

upier · Mar 26, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

The problem is that one is paying the cost and not getting the benefit.
In which case - one could might as well take PReturn/PSpike.
Because right now the guys use a skill - don't benefit from the e-gain - but they are paying for it with the long recharge. And it's a waste blowing a slot on something like that.

Super Igor · Mar 26, 2008, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Guys wtf???

As I always say and will say, anything that is less than 5 sec recharche and more than 5 energy cost will be an instant energy killer on any hero!!!!

~Super Igor

~

Cebe · Mar 26, 2008, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that one is paying the cost and not getting the benefit.
In which case - one could might as well take PReturn/PSpike.
Because right now the guys use a skill - don't benefit from the e-gain - but they are paying for it with the long recharge. And it's a waste blowing a slot on something like that.

But energy is probably the biggest concern when constructing hero builds, so with PDrain and Leech Signet they have the potential to gain energy. I do however agree that an interrupt which "does" more may sometimes be worth the slot, but on the whole, I'd rather take the chance with the energy-gaining interrupts. At the end of the day, more spamming of SF in that build will be more beneficial in longer fights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Guys wtf???

As I always say and will say, anything that is less than 5 sec recharche and more than 5 energy cost will be an instant energy killer on any hero!!!!

Hush.

Stolen Souls · Mar 26, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that one is paying the cost and not getting the benefit.
In which case - one could might as well take PReturn/PSpike.
Because right now the guys use a skill - don't benefit from the e-gain - but they are paying for it with the long recharge. And it's a waste blowing a slot on something like that.

No. Because then they would be spamming the interrupts instead of SF/GG. Remember, you want the SF ele to spam SF and GG as much as possible. Leech Signet and Power Drain have a long recharge, yeah (during which time SF/GG would be spammed). But they are a free, and almost free, interrupt. It does not matter if it doesn't gain energy every single time. The benefit is the interrupt at no/low energy cost. The energy gain is a bonus.

Hell, THE most effective SF hero you can probably make would look like this:

[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

If you want a bar full of utility, where the hero's randomness in choosing his skills does not matter, you'd probably be better off using Savannah Heat or something.

upier · Mar 26, 2008, 02:55 PM // 14:55

I never actually paid attention to this - but would the heroes camp the caster?
I mean - if SF was ready to be used again - would they wait to use an interrupt or would they just go with SF and use the interrupt IF they didn't have anything else to do?

Stolen Souls · Mar 26, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

If the caster started...casting, the hero would immediately attempt to interrupt. Otherwise he'd fire off SF. At least that's how I think it works.

Testing on Isle of the Nameless, Sousuke seems to wait until casters cast a spell to use the interrupts. Otherwise he just spams the crap out of SF/GG.

upier · Mar 26, 2008, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Testing on Isle of the Nameless, Sousuke waits until casters cast a spell to use the interrupts. Otherwise he just spams the crap out of SF/GG.

So if I understand this correctly - any kind of interrupt will slow him down in casting SF? So he camps?
Or is he spamming SF and uses an interrupt if he has nothing better to do?
Because if that is the case - I'd much rather have a short recharging one.
GoLE, FA and GG should be enough to cover the spamming.

Stolen Souls · Mar 26, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So if I understand this correctly - any kind of interrupt will slow him down in casting SF? So he camps?
Or is he spamming SF and uses an interrupt if he has nothing better to do?
Because if that is the case - I'd much rather have a short recharging one.
GoLE, FA and GG should be enough to cover the spamming.

He seems to camp, yeah...or more specifically, if he sees an opportunity to interrupt, he'll take it. Gonna try the fast recharge interrupts to see if it affects anything.

--With the fast recharge interrupts he runs out of energy much faster, because he attempts to interrupt practically everything cast (fast recharge may = bad in this case). In addition, those interrupts don't have an energy gain bonus.

I suppose it's all personal preferance. You can try testing it for yourself if you'd like.

upier · Mar 26, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

He seems to camp, yeah...or more specifically, if he sees an opportunity to interrupt, he'll take it. Gonna try the fast recharge interrupts to see if it affects anything.

--With the fast recharge interrupts he runs out of energy much faster, because he attempts to interrupt practically everything cast (fast recharge may = bad in this case). In addition, those interrupts don't have an energy gain bonus.

I suppose it's all personal preferance. You can try testing it for yourself if you'd like.

Yeah I did try it out a bit. (Like you said) It seems that any interrupt will make him cast less often. So I guess if you want him to spam SF - (again - like you said) that's pretty much all he should carry for optimal results ("optimal" of course meaning that he won't spam it like a human player would but still more often then with additional skills.)
So yeah - IF an interrupt should be used - then it actually might be better to run something with a long recharge.
Never thought it might slow him down additionally ...

Lishy · Mar 26, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

SF is good if your a paragon using "They're on fire!" and it is a nice spammable nuking skill along with burning and nice damage.SF synergizes very well with other builds, in which synergizing is the whole point to heroes!

Destromath · Mar 26, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

SF is good if your a paragon using "They're on fire!" and it is a nice spammable nuking skill along with burning and nice damage.SF synergizes very well with other builds, in which synergizing is the whole point to heroes!

Yeah, I've tried that before. However, like I was saying before, SF is extremely energy demanding without having to go with full-out energy management, so ToF tends to become useless during the last half of each battle. Another problem is that even though SF has a large AoE, it still won't cover even half of the enemies (unless they're bunched up) which is another flaw that makes me dislike it.

By the way, please try not to go off-topic with discussing how well heroes use interrupts please >_<.

One last thing:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

mind blast is better and usually recommended on these forums. i dont know what youve been reading.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

I know plenty of people run 4 SF or MB/RI eles with varying utility skills.

You said it yourself >_>.

Antithesis · Mar 26, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

PDrain and LSignet are there as energy management moreso than the interrupts. Yes, the first shots are usually wasted from an e-mgt perspective, but once the hero starts spamming SF he won't stop if he has PD and LS on the bar, despite the random usage.

By putting other skills on the bar you interrupt the flow of damage output from SF and impair the ability to manage energy to keep up the spam. A hero won't camp on the interrupts vs real mobs, so the MoD may not be a valid test. The downtime from PD and LS is miniscule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destromath

Yeah, I've tried that before. However, like I was saying before, SF is extremely energy demanding without having to go with full-out energy management, so ToF tends to become useless during the last half of each battle.

Then run a bar full of e-mgt, i have no problems running 2xSF with a Tof Para. Two SF's seem to manage energy better than one, so always take a duo or trio if you insist on using them.

kazjun · Mar 26, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Fire attune, GoLE, GG, leech sig, powerdrain. SF, ward vs melee and a res sig. Never seen them run out of energy before everything was dead. Tend not to use them in HM though, due to elemental damage being poor vs higher armour targets.

Stolen Souls · Mar 26, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destromath

SF is extremely energy demanding without having to go with full-out energy management

Just don't fill your bar with spammy or energy-intensive skills. All that needs to be spammed are SF and GG. Filling it with overkill like Liquid Flame, Meteor Shower, Mark of Rodgort, etc...naturally they are gonna drain their energy. As I said this would be the most effective way for a hero to use an SF build:

[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destromath

By the way, please try not to go off-topic with discussing how well heroes use interrupts please >_<.

The point was to show that using spammy skills on the SF's bar messes up how well they use SF (SF, which this thread is about, correct?)

Filling the SF's bar with fire spells, utility, fast-recharge interrupts, etc, throws off the flow of how they spam SF and GG. Power Drain and Leech signet are exceptions, because of the fact that they cost nothing (or very little), HAVE a long recharge, and give the chance to return some energy.

But yes, in Hard Mode, Air owns all.

Antithesis · Mar 27, 2008, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

Tend not to use them in HM though, due to elemental damage being poor vs higher armour targets.

Agreed. I only run Air conditioners in HM.

Nightow · Mar 27, 2008, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Agreed. I only run Air conditioners in HM.

Same here.

12+1+1 Air
12+1 Energy Storage
[skill]Air Attunement[/skill]
[skill]Enervating Charge[/skill]

[skill]Blinding Surge[/skill]
[skill]Shock Arrow[/skill]
[skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill]

Res of Choice

kobey · Mar 27, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem is that one is paying the cost and not getting the benefit.
In which case - one could might as well take PReturn/PSpike.
Because right now the guys use a skill - don't benefit from the e-gain - but they are paying for it with the long recharge. And it's a waste blowing a slot on something like that.

The energy gain from either interrupt pays for itself. And you generally won't be needing the energy from it b4 it recharges. So it isn't much of a problem to me. Without them, how is your ele hero going to spam SF without stopping for recharge? And you don't want to imagine how fast their energy will go down if their fire attunment gets strip.

Antithesis · Mar 27, 2008, 04:40 AM // 04:40

I've found Ele heroes to be teh suck with Blinding Surge. I use this instead for more damage and better energy management -

[skill]Elemental Attunement[/skill][skill]Air Attunement[/skill][skill]Blinding Flash[/skill][skill]Enervating Charge[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Lightning Hammer[/skill][skill]Lightning Orb[/skill][skill]Death Pact Signet[/skill]

Alternately i'll drop Lightning Hammer for Splinter Weapon, Lightning Orb for Shell Shock and Death Pact Signet for Ancestor's Rage - 12 Air, 9 ES, 12 Channel