Curse

Antithesis · Apr 23, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I was trying to figure why Ancestor's Rage was replaced with Rigor Mortis in the SS Variant build. Was the Ancestor's Rage nerf that important to replace it with such a low recharge skill?

Removing the ability for the enemy to block is handy.

You could run [[weapon of quickening] + [[shadowsong] instead of [[weapon of remedy] + [[splinter weapon] and keep AR while retaining strong condition removal.

Sab · Apr 23, 2008, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke

I was trying to figure why Ancestor's Rage was replaced with Rigor Mortis in the SS Variant build. Was the Ancestor's Rage nerf that important to replace it with such a low recharge skill?

Ancestors' isn't that good on secondary /Rts anymore. I'd still run it on a Rit with 14 spec, but not so much on a guy with 10 spec.

I like the idea of Weapon of Fury, so I added that to the first page.

arsie · Apr 23, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Weapon of Fury seems like it'll be more awesome with those Paragon teams.

Antithesis · Apr 23, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by arsie

Weapon of Fury seems like it'll be more awesome with those Paragon teams.

True. I use a Weapon of Fury N/Rt Channel / Resto with my physicals and Weapon of Quickening N/Rt Commune / Resto with my casters. Both work really well in their respective team setups.

Kaleban · Apr 23, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Just a small question regarding the N/Mo.

When I've played with this build (4-man areas so far) I've noticed that Prot Spirit and Guardian are mainly cast on minions, which somewhat defeats the purpose of minion bombing, and very rarely does my main receive any buffs apart from Splinter Weapon.

If the Hero AI is prioritizing the minions for buffing, would it not make sense to use skills that are party-wide or all allies affecting, such as [skill]Extinguish[/skill] for condition removal?

Also, in looking at [skill]Reckless Haste[/skill], it seems to me that a 50% miss chance while attacking 25% faster is more dangerous than simply attacking 50% slower. Why not use [skill]Shadow of Fear[/skill] (same AoE as RH) or even [skill]Meekness[/skill] with the larger AoE despite the sacrifice cost?

distilledwill · Apr 23, 2008, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Just a small question regarding the N/Mo.

When I've played with this build (4-man areas so far) I've noticed that Prot Spirit and Guardian are mainly cast on minions, which somewhat defeats the purpose of minion bombing, and very rarely does my main receive any buffs apart from Splinter Weapon.

If the Hero AI is prioritizing the minions for buffing, would it not make sense to use skills that are party-wide or all allies affecting, such as [skill]Extinguish[/skill] for condition removal?

Also, in looking at [skill]Reckless Haste[/skill], it seems to me that a 50% miss chance while attacking 25% faster is more dangerous than simply attacking 50% slower. Why not use [skill]Shadow of Fear[/skill] (same AoE as RH) or even [skill]Meekness[/skill] with the larger AoE despite the sacrifice cost?

The original Jagged Bones MM did include Extinguish, not quite sure why it was subbed out of the current one.

On the subject of reckless haste: reckless synergises with SS as it makes the enemies hit faster and therefore trigger SS more often. When spanked with Enfeebling Blood the melee enemies are fairly tame anyway.

SoF and Meekness would run contrary to SS.

Kaleban · Apr 23, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

I guess I'll have to test, but I haven't noticed in regular play whether the SS hero curses up a single target or spreads the various curses around. If he ALWAYS adds RH on top of SS then yes, that's great, if not, then perhaps slowing down the incoming damage to the minion meatshields is preferable?

DarkSpirit · Apr 23, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I like the idea of Weapon of Fury, so I added that to the first page.

Nice to see it updated to cater for adrenaline builds. But I dont think it can be depended upon for adrenaline gain due to Splinter Weapon and you can only have 1 weapon spell active per character. This means you get it sometimes and other times, you dont.

Antithesis · Apr 24, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Nice to see it updated to cater for adrenaline builds. But I dont think it can be depended upon for adrenaline gain due to Splinter Weapon and you can only have 1 weapon spell active per character. This means you get it sometimes and other times, you dont.

WoF has been very handy for alleviating Save Yourselves! downtime while FGJ recharges on my W/P. It's not game-breaking adrenal gain but combined with [[mark of fury] keeps me SY spam-happy without requiring an Orders hero. It's also great for powering up expensive Paragon elites and energy-hungry Derv & Ranger builds. Sin's are usually ok on the energy front but the adrenal gain does help with SY.

Most of the time WoF is on you rather than SW, which opens up higher energy skills on a Physical's bar. And if you do get SW it's off again within a few seconds, quickly replaced on expiration with WoF. SW is often cast on other Physical Heroes, Minions or Henchies (i take Rangers these days), so it's always on someone in the group.

DarkSpirit · Apr 24, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

WoF has been very handy for alleviating Save Yourselves! downtime while FGJ recharges on my W/P. It's not game-breaking adrenal gain but combined with [[mark of fury] keeps me SY spam-happy without requiring an Orders hero. It's also great for powering up expensive Paragon elites and energy-hungry Derv & Ranger builds. Sin's are usually ok on the energy front but the adrenal gain does help with SY.

Most of the time you WoF is on you rather than SW, which opens up higher energy skills on a Physical's bar. And if you do get SW it's off again within a few seconds, quickly replaced on expiration with WoF. SW is often cast on other Physical Heroes, Minions or Henchies (i take Rangers these days), so it's always on someone in the group.

It seems to work out ok for physical attackers.

Sab's build seems to be leaning more towards physical attacks nowadays with Rigor Mortis and Weapon of Fury. Personally, I prefer to bring Weapon of Quickening on my caster's heroes. Sometimes, I dont even take a physical attacker hench along, so bringing these spells just for minions are a little wasteful in those situations.

Antithesis · Apr 24, 2008, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

It seems to work out ok for physical attackers.

Sab's build seems to be leaning more towards physical attacks nowadays with Rigor Mortis and Weapon of Fury. Personally, I prefer to bring Weapon of Quickening on my caster's heroes. Sometimes, I dont even take a physical attacker hench along, so bringing these spells just for minions are a little wasteful in those situations.

Horses for courses.

hippo942 · Apr 26, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Hey really looking forward to using this build, just wondering as I am a necro should I go SS or MM?

Anyway any help would be awesome thanks in advance

Antithesis · Apr 26, 2008, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by hippo942

Hey really looking forward to using this build, just wondering as I am a necro should I go SS or MM?

Go as the SS. Heroes are so-so at managing it compared to the minion bomber and the healer.

Sab · Apr 27, 2008, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Tbh I expected anyone who can maintain SY! to be using Rac-way, his builds make much better use of the +100AL than the Necs do. I just added some variations you might want to try out just in case you're sticking with 3-Necs as a physical.

Antithesis · Apr 27, 2008, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

Tbh I expected anyone who can maintain SY! to be using Rac-way, his builds make much better use of the +100AL than the Necs do. I just added some variations you might want to try out just in case you're sticking with 3-Necs as a physical.

The problem with Rac's build is that while it is solid, it is best suited to an Imbagon. It does work with Warrior / Sin / Derv / Ranger but 3 Nec's is ultimately easier, more flexible and more stable should any single party member fall.

[[Weapon of Fury] isn't great in a party full of Physicals, if you're running that setup then definitely take Rac's. With only a couple of Physicals WoF shines and opens up skills that Physical toons could otherwise not afford. In the context of Sabway, WoF works. In Racway, the D/N makes it obsolete.

[[Weapon of Quickening] is great in caster parties and should be considered for a variant of the N/Rt Restorer. The 33% recharge increases the effectiveness of all casters under it's effect - 6.5 sec recharge on SS, 8 sec RH, 13 sec RM, 20 sec Aegis, 6.5 sec RE, 10 sec JB, 5 sec SW, 10 sec PwK, 13 sec Life...not to be sneezed at. And that's not factoring in what 33% perma-recharge can do for a myriad of player builds.

[[Shadowsong] is useful for getting over the initial hump while the meatshield is built and for preventing physical damage that penetrates the meatshield. With two spirits Mend Body & Soul is stronger, eliminating the need for Weapon of Remedy / Pure was Li Ming. Splinter can appear on the SS, so you're not really losing anything by spec'ing into Communing rather than Channeling.

Mesmer in Need · Apr 27, 2008, 03:24 AM // 03:24

I just vanquished all of ascalon sabway, me as a SY! war. It's an excellent build. It only takes a few modifications for the 4 man.
On the ss take defile flesh for barbs. This is great for the grawls in eastern frontier. Also guardian on the mm.
I also run weaken armor now that its buffed instead of barbs for 8 or 6 man teams. More conditions ftw, plus less armor will increase the damage output overtime more then single target barbs.

Belonah15 · Apr 27, 2008, 05:47 AM // 05:47

I have tried most, if not all, the builds and variants of (Any)Way.

SabWay is definitely the better one to use for most areas and for most player classes. There are a few places where it falls down like the Griffons with their [Spell breaker] in Snake Dance.

Racway (Paraway?) works well if you are a Paragon, but otherwise it did not do as well with my E/ or Mo/ character - any mob (usually undead) that uses [Vocal Minority] and it falls down.

Anyway well done and much thanks to the people that helped create these builds. I wish more people would try to create team builds like these. I would love to see a team build using the initial heros - it would help a lot of players get to the endgame.

Sab · Apr 27, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

I'm not sure about Weapon of Quickening. While it sounds good on paper, do the heroes actually take advantage of it? From what I've seen, the heroes don't mash their skills on recharge anyway, so I don't know what an extra 33% faster will do.

Antithesis · Apr 27, 2008, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I'm not sure about Weapon of Quickening. While it sounds good on paper, do the heroes actually take advantage of it? From what I've seen, the heroes don't mash their skills on recharge anyway, so I don't know what an extra 33% faster will do.

WoQ won't be cast on Physicals (possibly due to martial weapons rather than skillbars) and is less likely to be cast on those carrying ashes, so you can direct it's usage for preferential targetting.

WoQ gets spammed on recharge, is cheap enough to not drain energy and can be sustained on multiple party members. I've been running Communing at 11 for 20 secs WoQ (and 5 sec blind from Shadowsong), so the duration is long enough that it's sure to assist casters, mashing or not.

The only way to know if it works is to try it yourself, it's been great on my caster toons. Head to head, i'll take WoQ over WoR.

Bront · Apr 28, 2008, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

I'm not sure about Weapon of Quickening. While it sounds good on paper, do the heroes actually take advantage of it? From what I've seen, the heroes don't mash their skills on recharge anyway, so I don't know what an extra 33% faster will do.

I've found several skills get regularly spammed on recharge, particularly stances and buff spells, or removal spells like Hex Eater Signet.

Ultimately, it depends on the skill's cost and effect. Heroes tend to spam cheaper spells, buffs, and removals quickest. Combine 2 of those three, like Weapon of Quickening, should be good times (if they cast it right).